Kaelik wrote:Voss wrote:Yeah, no. Rogues already get piles of damage, so that definitely has nothing to do with the discussion.
The point is doing trivial stuff like shaken, tripping or disarming when outright death is on the table 9 levels earlier is fucking pointless. Claiming they are meaningful effects to hand out at any level is pretty tough.
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How stupid are you?
"X = Z."
"X+Y is worthless, because Y is less than Z."
What the fuck are you even saying you idiot?
This isn't complicated at all. At mid levels and beyond, rogues can just opt to try to outright save-or-die people or throw giant piles of damage dice that just plain kill people.
If you want to hand out new high level or even mid-level abilities for rogues, they
have to be comparable in some way to just plain eliminating an enemy outright, or at least utilitarian in _some_ fashion. Shaken, tripping and all that shit isn't, and can never be. They're shit options that aren't worth burning actions on.
Nauseating gets a slight pass because it's a low level way to start stun locking, which can also be useful. Especially with rogues, since their default state is horribly binary- either they can kill shit fast, or the target is immune and they're forced to stand around holding their junk.
Next, if you like, I can explain how you can step up onto a really short curb.