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Starfinder Looks Like a Mixed Bag
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Erik wrote:
A better model is the spell model of progression. Not surprising since casters are known to be more fun and playable. You get level gated abilities each level which don't require prerequisites and require actions and slots (which cuts ways down on synergy problems).


So... 4th Edition?

In all seriousness though, I do agree with you. The problem with 4th edition wasn't that there were a series of tiered power collections for the Rogue to choose from as they leveled up - the problem was that the powers in those groups were bullshit that took up way too much space on the damn page.

Something that was superficially similar to 4e in the sense that the Rogue would get ability selections off of a series of tiered lists is fucking obviously the way you should do things in a level based game. In this case I think it's pretty easy to demonstrate that 4e's leveled power lists were a bad implementation, while D20 Modern's feat and talent trees concept was a developmental dead end that would have been bad no matter how slick the implementation was.

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MGuy
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I probably missed it but was there a discussion on how the space ships work in this space adventure series?
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Kobold
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
So... lasers. The playtest video shows off laser pistols in all their 'glory.' First by goblins firing at the party with bodged, jury rigged pieces of shit that did d4 points of damage. This seemed odd, but fine. Except the party also fired back with laser pistols that also did 1d4(+0) points of damage.

And I immediately went 'Buh?' Yeah. For all that they've blathered about the game being significantly different with everyone wandering around with guns and vacuum sealed armor at level one... they're firing slings at people. Fire damage slings, but still.


I wonder whats to stop people just not paying that 100 'credits' and just grabbing a length of cloth and dealing the same damage by scrounging up some rocks to sling?

If this high technology isn't any better than the things medieval peasants are using then they need to really rethink their approach to sci-fi. Because at some point in the game someone is going to hit someone with a really big stick and if its going to do as much damage as a 'vibro sword' or something then you have to ask the point of spending the money on that high tech gear.

I don't even care if that laser pistol deals something minor extra like 1d4+1 damage (Do you add strength or dex to a sling? I forget since its been years since I played PF in a group, but if you do then.. that makes this high tech even more useless).


Last edited by Kobold on Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:09 am; edited 3 times in total
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There are things they could do to keep them relevant and make sense. I am assuming they have gone with zero of these things, but it is altogether possible that one of the following is a thing:

  • Energy weapons ignore armour or beat the DR that everyone has from environmental space armour or whatever
  • Laser guns are Simple because it's point-and-shoot, slings are Exotic because nobody has used them in thousands of years and the "whirl around your head" thing is weird now. So you either spend a feat or a bunch of credits or you take a -4 Penalty on attacks.
  • The range is like a kilometre even for a pistol
  • All rocks disappeared in the great rockastrophe of 2047


I meant one of those in jest, but if anything, that's probably the one they go with. ie "You can't just use a sling because people don't do that in this game, go fuck yourself."
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GnomeWorks
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

erik wrote:
A better model is the spell model of progression. Not surprising since casters are known to be more fun and playable. You get level gated abilities each level which don't require prerequisites and require actions and slots (which cuts ways down on synergy problems). Giving everyone their own full spell list and a handful of minor special abilities (i.e. clerics) is superior to the d20 model.


At this point, my approach to feats is to treat the concept like class abilities that multiple classes could take, so they get put into a different bucket.

So if at even levels, classes get a pick off a class list, at odd levels they get a feat, which should be similar in power to a pick off their class list but something that multiple classes might want access to.

Wizards might have a "wizards power" list, and sorcerers might have a "sorcerers power" list, but they both would potentially want access to an ability that says "you get an extra spell slot," so that becomes a feat (assuming that "you get an extra spell slot" is roughly on-par with the power level of the things on their class lists).
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Mechalich
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kobold wrote:
Voss wrote:
So... lasers. The playtest video shows off laser pistols in all their 'glory.' First by goblins firing at the party with bodged, jury rigged pieces of shit that did d4 points of damage. This seemed odd, but fine. Except the party also fired back with laser pistols that also did 1d4(+0) points of damage.

And I immediately went 'Buh?' Yeah. For all that they've blathered about the game being significantly different with everyone wandering around with guns and vacuum sealed armor at level one... they're firing slings at people. Fire damage slings, but still.


I wonder whats to stop people just not paying that 100 'credits' and just grabbing a length of cloth and dealing the same damage by scrounging up some rocks to sling?

If this high technology isn't any better than the things medieval peasants are using then they need to really rethink their approach to sci-fi. Because at some point in the game someone is going to hit someone with a really big stick and if its going to do as much damage as a 'vibro sword' or something then you have to ask the point of spending the money on that high tech gear.

I don't even care if that laser pistol deals something minor extra like 1d4+1 damage (Do you add strength or dex to a sling? I forget since its been years since I played PF in a group, but if you do then.. that makes this high tech even more useless).


That is indeed an issue. One of the things SAGA did right, in terms of feel of gameplay, is have the blasters do a bunch of damage. Generic Pistols did 3d6 and Rifles 3d8 right out of the gate. They gave PCs extra HP, but at low levels if you hit an NPC they went down. Ranges were also huge - Point Blank for a pistol was like 20 squares or something. I recall just ignoring range modifiers when running SAGA because characters rarely engaged outside of point blank range. 'Primitive' weapons were comparably crappy, even when comparing melee to melee.

Not being able to handle this is inexcusable because you have to be able to mechanically handle something like Ewoks vs. Stormtroopers in a game of this type - the players rally the primitive natives to fight the evil oppressor is such an established trope you must have means to make it happen.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mechalich wrote:
Well, it is important to remember that Disney's taking an axe to the EU had a real impact on the utility of older iterations of Star Wars games.

Hahaha, oh WOW no. Ok Prior to the launch of the new Disney star wars movies star wars was basically a dead franchise on every level. Killing the EU was effectively trivial, the prequels killed star wars long since. It was just a kick in the nuts for some tiny tiny tiny fraction of the fan base. You know, the batshit crazy obsessive fraction.

But even so, the wider audience and the potential RPG audience are different, I mean the star wars RPG community could have been made ONLY out of EU fan boys and been chugging along totally fine and been hit in the nuts by the EU purge right?

Yeah but no I don't think so, I'm pretty sure back in 2012 when trying to find ANYONE still talking about e20 for the e20 thread I discovered that the star wars Saga edition forums and communities on the internet were ALREADY basically cemeteries full of tumbleweeds THEN. Two years before the EU Purge in 2014. And that tracks pretty well for the expected lifespan for a never particularly popular RPG that had ceased to publish material 2 years before that in 2010.

We all know that the EU purge hurt YOU personally in the gonads, no one else noticed ok? It did not kill the franchise. It did not meaningfully reduce the fan base. It was not the death blow for saga edition. It just kicked YOU in the nuts personally.
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Slade
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:

  • Energy weapons ignore armour or beat the DR that everyone has from environmental space armour or whatever

  • Technically they did this.
    There is ENERGY AC (Lasers, energy damage, etc) and Kinetic AC (rocks/swords)

    Now, I don't know how this balanced this, but if some creatures//NPCs have low Energy Lasers make sense.

    Mechalich wrote:
    Kobold wrote:
    Voss wrote:
    So... lasers. The playtest video shows off laser pistols in all their 'glory.' First by goblins firing at the party with bodged, jury rigged pieces of shit that did d4 points of damage. This seemed odd, but fine. Except the party also fired back with laser pistols that also did 1d4(+0) points of damage.

    And I immediately went 'Buh?' Yeah. For all that they've blathered about the game being significantly different with everyone wandering around with guns and vacuum sealed armor at level one... they're firing slings at people. Fire damage slings, but still.


    I wonder whats to stop people just not paying that 100 'credits' and just grabbing a length of cloth and dealing the same damage by scrounging up some rocks to sling?

    If this high technology isn't any better than the things medieval peasants are using then they need to really rethink their approach to sci-fi. Because at some point in the game someone is going to hit someone with a really big stick and if its going to do as much damage as a 'vibro sword' or something then you have to ask the point of spending the money on that high tech gear.

    I don't even care if that laser pistol deals something minor extra like 1d4+1 damage (Do you add strength or dex to a sling? I forget since its been years since I played PF in a group, but if you do then.. that makes this high tech even more useless).


    That is indeed an issue. One of the things SAGA did right, in terms of feel of gameplay, is have the blasters do a bunch of damage. Generic Pistols did 3d6 and Rifles 3d8 right out of the gate. They gave PCs extra HP, but at low levels if you hit an NPC they went down. Ranges were also huge - Point Blank for a pistol was like 20 squares or something. I recall just ignoring range modifiers when running SAGA because characters rarely engaged outside of point blank range. 'Primitive' weapons were comparably crappy, even when comparing melee to melee.

    Not being able to handle this is inexcusable because you have to be able to mechanically handle something like Ewoks vs. Stormtroopers in a game of this type - the players rally the primitive natives to fight the evil oppressor is such an established trope you must have means to make it happen.

    Slings were better in SAGA than 3.5.
    Slings didn't have reload issues like 3.5 (free action). Jedi/Sith can't redirect physical attacks only energy weapons like lasers.
    Yes, you could just buy a physical gun (they exist), but ammo is expensive.

    Although, yes, lasers were better in most cases.
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    Prak
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    PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Wait... Force users couldn't redirect physical attacks? Like... at all? Or it was a different power? Because while I will totally agree that using a lightsabre to try to redirect a solid metal slug is going to be A Bad Time, saying that they can't just force-wave physical projectiles away at all...
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    FrankTrollman wrote:
    In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

    You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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    Chamomile
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    PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Intercepting an object is a thing you can do in Saga. I think it's a specific Force power, but it might be a combination of the standard "move stuff" power and some talent that lets you use it as a reaction. The main thing is that it's different from the power or talent or whatever it was that Jedi/Sith use to deflect blaster bolts, and since solid projectile weapons are so much more rare, the counter to it is also scarce. The ammo for solid projectile weapons isn't all that expensive, though (it's slightly more expensive than blaster ammo, but you can still buy hundreds of bullets for the monthly salary of the "struggling" class - if you aren't making more than that as a mercenary, you are probably not a mercenary and are instead working for an organization that can keep you supplied), and they deal 2d8 damage for a rifle vs. 1d4 for a sling, so there's really not any case for a sling unless you are very poor.
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    Prak
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    PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Ok, that makes more sense.
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    Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
    The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


    Winnah wrote:
    No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


    FrankTrollman wrote:
    In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

    You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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    Slade
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    So someone is collecting info on Pathfinder forum:
    http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tu6w?Starfinder-All-the-information-from-paizo

    So it looks like Old style weapons exist.

    So why is everyone shooting weak lasers when longbows exist?
    I bet they dramatically increase cost of old weapons or I can't see anyone using a laser till higher level when lasers are worth it.

    So since thee are no crafting feats does that mean you can't make magic items or just anyone can I wonder.
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    FrankTrollman
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    PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Slade wrote:
    So since thee are no crafting feats does that mean you can't make magic items or just anyone can I wonder.


    Since equipment is leveled and skills are check boxes, they essentially do have item creation feats. It's just that you buy item creation feats with your trained skill slots instead of with feat slots. The difference is semantics.

    -Frank
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    Voss
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    PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Paizo unveiled one of the 'brand new' races today. Its... lizardfolk. Klingon lizardfolk. Honorable warriors who don't do science much. But who also act as mercenaries, so... Krogan.

    http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5ljo0?Unveiling-a-New-Starfinder-Race-The-Vesk
    Laser

    You'd think with going this hard on tropes, they'd have some sort of interesting hook tacked on, but no... they teamed up with the Federation Alliance to fight off the Tyranids Rachni. Now there is an uneasy peace, and presumably there is one in an officer exchange program somewhere.


    Last edited by Voss on Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:07 am; edited 3 times in total
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