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Ikeren
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Fair enough. Also, is there a list of Thrones special hidden effects? I know Darkness causes darkness and winter/cold cause cold, but I am reading an AAR which says the throne of war causes extra barbarian attacks.
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Red_Rob
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You can see a full list of the events in the game on the Data Inspector: http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector

If you go to the events tab and Load Events you can search them. If you tick the 'advanced' tab you can enter the property 'req_claimedthrone' and it will show all events triggered by claiming Thrones.

Quote:
Adjacent to my capital is a Throne;

Sorcerer; B3, D1, lots of blood slaves, 4 death gems
Circle Master; 2/2, 5 death gems, 8 blood slaves
2* Conjurer; 1/1, few death gems, lots of blood slaves

3 Mounter Commanders

11 Heavy Calvary
14 Light Calvary
19 Militia
12 Heavy Infantry


Is there a test mode where I can test some armies against that? I imagine when I attack it I'm probably well off having 25 spearmen huskarls in front to absorb the calvary charge as opposed to my more expensive sacreds.


With those indies you can expect a solid cavalry charge followed by ongoing skelepam. This means your sacreds probably aren't the right tool for the job, seeing as they have a low density of high damage attacks (exactly the kind if thing Skelespam is good against). Unless sent in overwhelming numbers they will struggle to kill skeletons at the rate they are produced, eventually fatiguing out or routing due to the turn limit.

With Thrones it can be worth using a staggered approach, taking out a few units at a time. For example, sending some huskarls and Garmhirdings and ordering them to Guard Commander at the back of the battlefield will allow the Cavalry to charge over and get killed by your Garmhirdings. Meanwhile the mages will waste a few gems or spam some skeletons as your units will be out of range of battle magic, and your commander can retreat after 5 rounds when the cavalry should be dealt with. Next turn you only have the mages and some infantry to deal with, which is an easier proposition. A bunch of Huskarls with some Siethkona for skelespam of your own should deal with that.

Quote:
And all in all, my start position is a little rough. 6 adjacent provinces, but only 2 are easily takable for various reasons. Bogarus turn 1 expanded, and Agartha, Abysia, and Xizbala researched turn 1. Abysia and Xizbala had the exact same research, which wasn't much, and it tells me that Xizbala took Drain 2 (their starting mage researches 9, Abysia's 7, but they came out with the same research), and Bogarus spent a lot of gold on Hector's Heavy Horsemen.


I take it graphs are on then? Sounds like Bogarus is going for turbo-expansion. With an Awake expander and heavy Merc investment you can take a lot of provinces year 1, even with Bogarus lacklustre troop selection. This could be dangerous with Bogarus lategame strength, if they can get a few forts up they can spam their research-bonus mages and power through the research pretty quickly. This is a good strategy, however it can be dangerous with graphs on. Once people see you taking off in provinces and research you can expect an alliance to form pretty quickly.
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Ikeren
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Graphs are on. Turn 2, Bogarus went up to 3 provinces, Ragha, Caelum, Agartha all stayed at 0 provinces, and everyone else (Xibala, Atlantis, Gath, Pangaea, Midgard, Abysia, Man, Ulm, Marignon, Mictlan) takes 1 province.

That's very, very clever about the calvary, actually, though I still think I probably want to find some chaff as well.
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Ikeren
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Turn 3;

1: Marignon, Agartha, Abysia, Caelum, Ragha,
2: Man, Mictlan, Pangaea, Midgard, Utgard, Gath, Xizbala, Atlantis
3: Ulm
4: Bogarus

I'm honestly shocked that 5 players aren't managing a province a turn.

Also, I found 7 resource crossbowmen, which someone told me was sort of nice. Is it still sort of nice if I don't have access to Fire/Air for Wind guide/Flaming Arrows?

I'm sort of crossing my fingers for lots of Marignon/Agartha/Abysia/Caelum/Ragha near me.
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Ikeren
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Alright, my first neighbour is Midgard, who is running E4, N4, A4, which I would assume is keeper of the bridge. He's up to 5 provinces with me.

I played around with a 1 on 1 game, and it seems like my sacred giants stack pretty darn favourably against his gp-to-gp, except for the Einheres, which kick giant ass. I imagine getting some archers and chaff into the mix would help immensely with that, plus lightning resist going into the later game. Is there anything in my native lineup that would work well against Einheres? They sorta seem designed against giants.
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K
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ikeren wrote:
Alright, my first neighbour is Midgard, who is running E4, N4, A4, which I would assume is keeper of the bridge. He's up to 5 provinces with me.

I played around with a 1 on 1 game, and it seems like my sacred giants stack pretty darn favourably against his gp-to-gp, except for the Einheres, which kick giant ass. I imagine getting some archers and chaff into the mix would help immensely with that, plus lightning resist going into the later game. Is there anything in my native lineup that would work well against Einheres? They sorta seem designed against giants.


Giants get trashed pretty hard with single-target magic. I ran a quick test with four of Midgard's S2 mages dropping Paralyze with a roughly equal gold cost of Einheres, Huskarls, and Skinshifters and it really did not go well for your sacreds + some Javelinists.
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Ikeren
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hmmm, fair point. Chaff won't be super helpful/distracting either, will it, since mages prioritize high hp targets?
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Red_Rob
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mages will generally try to affect the largest hp pool they can. This means that for aoe spells density of hp per square is important, but for single target spells it is generally just unit hp.

Against Einhere you might struggle, they are pretty much designed as giant killers. Einhere are quite resource hungry though - early on they may not have that many. They are quite high in Enc with their berserk also adding fatigue - skelespam might be a decent counter.

Alternatively you could go heavy on those 7r crossbowmen. Massed crossbows are quite nasty for Midgard to deal with as their two decent troops (skinshifters and Einhere) don't use shields. They might try to use arrow decoys, but if you use fire: None orders you can get round that. You need a critical mass for ranged troops to become effective, but once you hit that you can take out a decent force with almost no losses. At 10 gold you should be able to field double the number of crossbows as the enemy has Einhere / Skinshifters and at that ratio you can do serious damage before they get to your line.
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Simplified Tome Armor. Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."
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Ikeren
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, I'm putting a fort down on the Crossbow province. That being said, they're generally pretty friendly, and they're going to share a border with the games fastest expander, so I suspect we'll be on as good terms as we need to be.

My next neighbour is Abysia, who seems to be struggling; 4 provinces on turn 7, took 1 early, then had 3 turns without a province, then took 2 more.


___________________________________________________________

I'm also in a MA game now as Ashdod, and I've got MA Abysia which I know nothing about near me, and it looks like an early war might be advantageous. How's that pairing?
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K
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ikeren wrote:
Yeah, I'm putting a fort down on the Crossbow province. That being said, they're generally pretty friendly, and they're going to share a border with the games fastest expander, so I suspect we'll be on as good terms as we need to be.

My next neighbour is Abysia, who seems to be struggling; 4 provinces on turn 7, took 1 early, then had 3 turns without a province, then took 2 more.


___________________________________________________________

I'm also in a MA game now as Ashdod, and I've got MA Abysia which I know nothing about near me, and it looks like an early war might be advantageous. How's that pairing?


Abysia is always a difficult nation to run regardless of era. If you are looking for an early kill, they'd be a good target.

That being said, I wouldn't read too much into the score graphs by turn 7 because a lack of provinces might just be a province-taker army hitting some unexpected resistance in a province or being surrounded by knights and needing a few turns to maneuver or build/beef up an army.

By turn 20, you'll have a better idea if someone had a good build and knows how to run it.
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Ikeren
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Fair enough. Good thoughts.
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Ikeren
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Updates;

As LA Utgard, I tried to organize a 5 person stomp on LA Pangaea. Pangaea managed to get other people to attack several of the people in the alliance, and it started a massive war, but I ended up getting crushed by Pangaea, Marignon, and Atlantis 3v1 style. I did have several very good battles against Pangaea and Marignon, but it didn't take long to beat me.

As MA Ashdod, the world went to war with Ermor and won swiftly, and now the world is battling Xibalba, but that just started.


Also, I'm looking to ad a game, and there is a game I'm interested in looking for more players. It's on the Clockwork Hounds Discord group, so if anyone is interested, I can send you an invite link.

Here are the details;
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What other general sorts of formations do other people tend to find themselves using over and over again?

Overall "Attack Archers" seems to be the real "Win" button. If my scripted units can direct their attacks at the archers, I'll usually have routed the enemy formations such that they'll be forced to flee into the flankers who have mowed down the archers. Killing the routed, and saving actions on further cleanup attacks.

I mostly got to this point from playing several "all factions" games a half year or so ago, and I noticed that certain things worked well for just about all non-mage-fighting armies:


  • Right Flank-Armour: Shield &or armoured/tough troops; small (3-10) unit. On one flank (right); and as far forward as possible. If things pan out well, their furthethest forward position will hold and lock enemy archers to this unit, saving all of your larger/softer units from being unneccessarily damaged by massed archery. [Set to Attack/Fire Archers]

  • Left Flank-Cavarly: Anything fast &or damaging; large (20-150+) sized unit. Placed just a touch further back than the above Arrow-Catchers (this makes sure that the large vulnerable , and on the opposite (left) flank . If things pan out well, they'll avoid enemy formations, mow up the archers; and then begin catching routing enemies to achieve maximum amounts of kills. [Set to Attack Archers]

  • Vangaurd - Marching Column: Solid blockers. Medium (5-30) sized unit Set halfway back. This is merely meant to protect your real damaging power, your missile troops. All you need is a line long and deep enough to keep any stragglers from [Set to Guard Commander, Fire Nearest]

  • Rear - Archers: As many as possible. As far back as possible; [Set to attack Archers]

  • Commanders - Basic Melee: Hold ground w/ the vanguard to keep the missile troops safe.

    [Dom 3 only]
  • Skirmishers - Courageous Heroes - Solitary units placed far forward of the main lines to pull down archery ahead of my forces (instead of into them). As well as the critical action of disrupting enemy formations into circular shapes. Making easier targets for my own archers. Giving up 4-5 tiny men to save dozens more I'd be guaranteed to lose feels totally worth it; even if giving your troops orders for decimation every battle is probably evil as hell. However, I feel less evil about decimating my troops than I do when I start cranking up Blood magic. [Set to Fire at archers]


    Now, this has some broad variations. Agartha is going to be using it's own unique army progression of tiny slightly armoured men, and other slightly differently armoured men, until they can bootstrap up to nigh-unkillable clay animates. Ulm will be massing Super Crossbows behind a tiny line of well armoured (tireless zombie) pikemen. Machaka is just going to make spiders, spiders & spiders; b/c spiders are cheap and pretty great to mass (the low resource cost unarmoured riders leads to unmounted spider...tanks which are much more resiliant than the tiny man that rode it).

    Later on, Thugs and SCs can supplant entire formations (or get added to them for [TEXA$] formations).
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    Ikeren
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    PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    MA Ulm is slightly better off with indie archers unless the enemy is also using heavily armored stuff; they'll fire faster, do better damage, and be less likely to injur your own troops.

    But yeah, that seems about right. Your right flank armor should be set to guard commander on a commander in the back row, also on the right, with all your commanders /archers on the left, because if the archer squad locks, it'll actually drag them forward as they chase to shoot in range, resulting in less shots and breaking up formation.
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    Ikeren
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    PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Also, I'm playing a lot right now; some blitzes, some PBEM Games; is there interest in a dom4 game going up for TGD?
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    angelfromanotherpin
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    PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    I could get in on that. It has been a while.
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    GreatGreyShrike
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    PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    There's a new program to randomly generate maps for Windows that just released recently; the maps it makes look good and are fairly well balanced.
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    Ikeren
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    PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Also, I stumbled into this legendary thread;
    http://www.moddb.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/weakest-nations-in-each-era

    Any updates to weakest nations in each era?

    This spreadsheet gives something resembling a data set;
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dlrvyEqLFYIaXRc49TheMmfdoP8jEh1m5rZJHJAzDWQ/edit#gid=1649923223
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    Judging__Eagle
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    PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Ikeren wrote:
    MA Ulm is slightly better off with indie archers unless the enemy is also using heavily armored stuff; they'll fire faster, do better damage, and be less likely to injur your own troops.



    That's true. Until you can fortify a province that gives decent Resource&Gold:Units ratio, your own heavy crossbowyers are going to be produced in small amounts due to issues regarding: neighboring provincial access, resource, and gold.

    The thing is, building mostly crossbows and the least amount of melee units will likely be cheaper in the long run. By not commiting your highly encumbered melee troops until the enemy has crossed most of the field you risk the least amount of them each battle, and hopefully your xbows have been killing lots of enemies every other round until the few stragglers that reach your lines stand no chance against unfatigued heavy pikers/halbearders. The result will be that your melee troops don't need constant replenishment between major campaigns, and that your crossbowyers have had lots of rounds to (ab)use their higher than average damage weapons in each battle.

    Of course, this is also dependent on your Indy defense levels. I like to play on Indies: 10 in order to see some slightly larger forces, but I also tend to "max" the various settings as well b/c I want to see how larger armies interact with each other in the game.
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    Red_Rob
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    PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Judging_Eagle wrote:
    What other general sorts of formations do other people tend to find themselves using over and over again?

    A few notes about formations. Firstly, any squad in Line formation will only move a maximum of 3 squares per turn if set to "Attack" orders. If you set them to "Hold and attack" they will instead wait 2 turns and then move at their full speed. Similarly, flyers in Line formation will refuse to fly on "Attack" orders, but will wait 2 turns and then fly in on "Hold and Attack".

    Units given "Attack: None" or "Fire: None" orders seem to choose a random individual in the enemy army and choose their squad as the initial target. This can sometimes include Commanders, so having a bunch of small squads of archers on "Fire: None" can lead to some targeting the enemy casters at the back of the field. Using "Fire: None" is actually a prime way to outfox archer decoys - as the target is chosen randomly it is weighted towards larger units rather than whatever hard target the enemy is trying to get you to focus on.

    When trying to place mages in the center of a block of troops (for example to avoid death by flyers), don't just make a block of troops and set your mages in the middle. Due to the way Dominions places units, if the squad places first they will appear as a full block, and the mages will then be shunted off to the edges. Instead set up a couple of blocks and arrange them as a donut with a hole in the middle for the mages.

    Ikeren wrote:
    Also, I stumbled into this legendary thread;
    http://www.moddb.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/weakest-nations-in-each-era

    Any updates to weakest nations in each era?

    This spreadsheet gives something resembling a data set;
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dlrvyEqLFYIaXRc49TheMmfdoP8jEh1m5rZJHJAzDWQ/edit#gid=1649923223


    Whilst I think that spreadsheet is broadly accurate - not in terms of specific rankings, but in general high or low placement - there are some odd ducks on there. Looking at EA, both R'lyeh and Yomi are highly placed, whereas they are fairly universally agreed to be weak nations. Therodos has a number of wins from before they were hit with the nerfbat, which gives them a higher position than I would expect them to reach today. I've heard the suggestion that stronger players to tend to play weaker nations in FFA games, which can lead to them having a higher win percentage than expected.

    The nations at the bottom of each era do pretty much match my expectations though.

    Quote:
    Also, I'm playing a lot right now; some blitzes, some PBEM Games; is there interest in a dom4 game going up for TGD?

    I could join a Den game I think - I have a game that looks like wrapping up fairly shortly.
    _________________
    Simplified Tome Armor. Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

    "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."
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    Ikeren
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    PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    There is this awesome mod I really like called Magic Enhanced, and instead of all the stupidity with CBM in Dom3.0, it actually has a changelog that actually explains what it changes. It's really well put together. Thoughts on using it?
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    angelfromanotherpin
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    PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    The problem with a mod like that is that, cool or not, it inherently takes a dump on the system mastery of everyone who isn't used to it. And >700 new spells takes a lot of getting used to.
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    PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    In one game I played with magic enhanced, we had to have a gentleman's agreement to not use a particular magic item added by the mod because it would crash the turn generation if the item was on a battlefield. Luckily, we never had a random event that gave us that item on a commander who was in battle on the same turn - if that had happened, we'd have had to roll back to fix it.

    More memorably, I was in a game where a person cast Poison Earth, a global spell from it, as an Underwater nation, and then every land province got hit by death scales and massive attacks of Earth elementals and Earth Elemental assassins, with the stacks of Earth Elemental neutral attacks quickly beseiging every land province that they didn't outright conquer basically reaching to the sky - it basically wrecked every single land player simultaneously and was massively overpowered, and conquered the whole world by itself, being way more oppressive than comparatively minor annoyances like Burden of Time. To the creator's credit, they apparantly have since had that spell pointed out to them as being batshit insane and nerfed it severely. But they added it to the game in the first place without apparantly doing any testing whatsoever.

    Similarly, in single player I tried to use one of the spells for making recruitables for a water nation on land that works by creating a magic site, and it was completely nonfunctional. Luckily, I was doing this in single player rather than wasting like 50 pearls for nothing in multi. Apparantly they didn't playtest all the Eras of nations that they gave the spell to, so it worked in one era but not the other.

    Of the 2 different games I played in multi with Magic Enhanced, one was totally wrecked by it, and another could have been randomly crashed by it but wasn't.

    My overall experience suggested an absence of any detailed playtesting of the mod, with the creator not doing any checking to make sure the stuff they put in wouldn't do things like crash the game or destroy any semblance of balance.

    The sprites are really cool and well done for the most part, and a lot of the ideas are interesting; it's a shame the execution is apparantly being done by someone who doesn't want to spend the time to actually playtest their shit to make sure it actually works as intended even minimally.
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    Red_Rob
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    PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    GreatGreyShrike wrote:
    Of the 2 different games I played in multi with Magic Enhanced, one was totally wrecked by it, and another could have been randomly crashed by it but wasn't.

    My overall experience suggested an absence of any detailed playtesting of the mod, with the creator not doing any checking to make sure the stuff they put in wouldn't do things like crash the game or destroy any semblance of balance.

    The sprites are really cool and well done for the most part, and a lot of the ideas are interesting; it's a shame the execution is apparantly being done by someone who doesn't want to spend the time to actually playtest their shit to make sure it actually works as intended even minimally.


    Firstly, apologies for the Poison Earth issue. The Globals were one of the first things added to the mod and I was just getting to grasp with using events to simulate the spell effects. As a result some of the effects were just plain out of line. Most of the Globals had undergone nerfs since then, but Poison Earth had flown below the radar as it simply hadn't been cast. As you suggested, it has now been reduced to a more sane level.

    The crashing item was unfortunate and related to an actual bug in the game rather than any coding fault. In my defence the crash only happened in a specific circumstance that I didn't find in testing. As soon as it was picked up I released a hotfix and alerted any ongoing games I was aware of.

    With regards to playtesting, I do test each spell to make sure it actually works on a mechanical level before release. I think it's obvious with a game as long and involving as Dominions that serious balance testing is going to be limited without access to a large playtesting pool. Due to this I am constantly updating the mod with feedback from games played. At the moment I'm actually carrying out a pure balance pass for the next version based on player feedback along with my own MP games.
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    Last edited by Red_Rob on Wed May 24, 2017 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    maglag
    Duke


    Joined: 02 Apr 2015
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    PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Couldn't, you know, release the spells in small batches instead of "here's several hundreds of new spells dumped in one go, hope I didn't mess anything up"? Because by literally adding hundreds of new spells at once, simple statistics are that you're gonna mess up something big.
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