One Feat Per Level: An Open Discussion

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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob »

Kaelik wrote:Leadership shouldn't be a feat at all, since it's just "everyone takes it and you army manage" or "no one takes it" that's just a decision you make at character creation that is like deciding to play a game at level 8 or level 1.
This. Leadership feats were a cludge based on the fact that in 1e and to a certain extent 2e AD&D you were expected to transition to a kingdom management "phase" of the game once you got to a high enough level. In 3e they tried to get cute and have it as a character option once you got to the right level, but that leads to the prospect of some characters picking it and others not picking it and then what the hell is the GM supposed to do? Either the party becomes the de-facto ruling class of an area and now has adventures based on that, or they go on being a bunch of murder hobos and having a series of picaresque encounters until the players get bored. The Leadership feats were a bad idea and should be dismissed as such.
I have to wonder why having more actual arms should be a minor character customization option separate from race at all.
The shape changing feats were really part of a "build your own fiend" theme in Tome of Fiends. Having people able to dumpster dive for them doesn't really seem to have worked out too well, so rewriting the Fiend classes to include them as an option seems like a better solution.
DenizenKane wrote:Should there be feats for every level?
The nice thing about feat-per-level is that you get something customisable and meaningful for your character every time you go up a level. Levelling in 3e isn't something that happens all that often, so it's nice to have something like that to look forward to. Having simple level pre-reqs is the way to go I think. I can see Frank's point that a feat should be a self-contained option where possible, therefore some tweaking may be needed for feats that are above the curve. I still think it should be possible to use the Tome feat abilities list as a decent starting point.
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DenizenKane
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Post by DenizenKane »

I've been putting some work into this system here and there.
In my campaign, I will be using the Races of War combat rules, so many feats are based around that, and mention The Edge.

You gain 1 feat per level. You must pick a feat that is appropriate for that level, and each time you level you may retrain any of your previous feats to one of the same level.

Feats are separated into levels just like spells.

Level 1 feats are for levels one and two.
Level 2 feats are for levels three and four,
etc.

A level 7 character has: Two level 1 feats, Two level 2 feats, Two level 3 feats, and One level 4 feat.

I'm considering including Perfect TWF, Precise Shot, and Combat Reflexes as bonus feats. (or added to the combat system)

This is in no way complete or final, and any criticism at all is greatly appreciated.

-Level 1-
Lightning Reflexes [Combat]
Benefit: -You gain a +3 bonus to your Reflex saves.

Iron Will [Combat]
Benefit: You gain a +3 bonus to your Willpower saves.

Great Fortitude [Combat]
Benefit: You gain a +3 bonus to your Fortitude Saves.

Toughness [Combat]
Benefit: Gain +2 HP per level, and you don’t die until -20 hp.

Scales [Combat]
Benefit: You skin becomes extra hard. You gain +2 natural armor, and DR2/-

Danger Sense [Combat]
Benefits: You get a +3 bonus on Initiative checks.
You can act during surprise rounds.

Marksman [Combat]
Everything you need to start ranged.
Ie Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Reload
Benefits:
Precise Shot - You take no penalty when firing into melee.
Point Blank Shot - +2 to ranged attack rolls within 30 feet.
Rapid Reload - The time it takes to reload a weapon is reduced to a free action.

Armored Mage
Benefit: No casting failure chance in armor you’re proficient with. Gain proficiency with light and medium armor.

Energy Ray [Magic]
Benefit: Energy Ray (Su): Pick Fire, Electricity, Acid or Cold. You gain a ranged touch attack at medium range that deals 1d6/damage per level of that type. Pick one when you get the feat, and you can’t change it.

Heightened Awareness [Skill]
Benefit: +3 to spot and search. Always considered “actively searching.”

Healer [Skill] [Magic]
Benefit: +3 to all heal checks. You may use your heal checks to simulate the spell Cure Light Wounds with a DC 13 heal check.

Combat Looting [Combat]
You can put things into your pants in the middle of combat.
Benefits: You may sheathe or store an object as a free action.
You get a +3 bonus to Disarm attempts. Picking up objects off the ground does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Stealthy [Skill]
Benefit: +3 to hide and move silently. You gain no penalty for moving while trying to hide or move silently.

Dodge [Combat]
Benefits: You gain a +2 Dodge bonus to AC.
- Opponents gain no flanking or higher ground benefits against you.

Tomb Tainted Soul [Necromantic] [Magic]
Benefit: You are healed by negative energy, and damaged by positive energy.

Weapon Finesse [Combat]
Benefit: You may use your Dexterity Modifier instead of your Strength modifier for calculating your attack bonus. You may use your Dexterity Modifier instead of your Strength modifier for damage rolls.
Your special attacks are considered to have the Edge when you attack an opponent with a Dexterity modifier smaller than yours, even if your Base Attack Bonus is not larger.

Insightful Strike [Combat]
Benefit: You may use your Wisdom Modifier instead of your Strength modifier for calculating your attack bonus. You may use your Wisdom Modifier instead of your Strength modifier for damage rolls.
Your special attacks are considered to have the Edge when you attack an opponent with a Wisdom and Dexterity modifier smaller than yours, even if your Base Attack Bonus is not larger.

Brilliant Blade [Combat]
Benefit: You may use your Intelligence Modifier instead of your Strength modifier for calculating your attack bonus. You may use your Intelligence Modifier instead of your Strength modifier for damage rolls.
Your special attacks are considered to have the Edge when you attack an opponent with a Intelligence and Dexterity modifier smaller than yours, even if your Base Attack Bonus is not larger.

Zen Archery [Combat] [Marksman]
You are very calm about shooting people in the face. That's a good place to be.
Benefits:
- You may use your Wisdom Modifier in place of your Dexterity Modifier on ranged attack rolls.
Any opponent you can hear/perceive is considered an opponent you can see for purposes of targeting them with ranged attacks.
-Level 2-
Challenge [Combat]
Benefit: As a Swift Action, you may mark an opponent as your primary foe. This foe must be within medium range and be able to hear the your challenge. If the target creature inflicts any damage on you before your next turn, the attempt fails. Otherwise, any attacks you use against the opponent during her next turn inflict an extra d6 of damage per character level. This effect ends at the end of her next turn, or when she has struck her opponent a number of times equal to the number of attacks normally allotted her by her Base Attack Bonus.

Dragon Breath [Magic] [Draconic]
Benefits: Choose fire, acid, cold, or electricity, then choose 30ft cone or 60 ft line. You gain a breath weapon with the chosen properties.
- Using a breath weapon is a standard action. Each time a breath weapon is used, you cannot use any of them again on your next turn or the turn thereafter. ( 2 rounds)
DC for this Breath Weapon is 10 + ½ Level + (Con or Cha) Mod
Damage: 1d6/level + (Con or Cha) Mod damage of fire, acid, cold, electricity. Reflex for half.

Energy Immunity [Magic]
Benefit: You become immune to one type of energy.
(You can only take this feat once)

Great Cleave [Combat]
Benefit: Whenever you drop an opponent with a melee attack, you are entitled to a bonus "cleave" attack against another opponent you threaten. You may take a bonus 5' step every time you are entitled to a Cleave attack, which you may take either before or after the attack. This Cleave attack is considered an attack of opportunity.

Like Water [Combat]
Benefits: +4 Bonus to Trip attempts. You always have the edge when tripping.
- You can make an attack of opportunity against any opponent who attacks you. This attack of opportunity must be a trip or disarm attempt.

Cut Through [Combat]
Benefit: You attacks ignore hardness and DR.

Ghost Hunter [Combat]
Benefits:
- You can hear incorporeal and ethereal creatures as if they lacked those traits (note that shadows and the like rarely bother to actively move silently).
- You can see invisible and ethereal creatures as if they lacked those traits.
- Your attacks count as if you had the Ghost Touch property on your weapons.
-: Any Armor or shield you use benefits from the Ghost Touch property.

Juggernaut [Combat]
You are an unstoppable Juggernaut.
Benefits: You may be considered one size category larger for the purposes of any size dependant roll you make (such as a Bull Rush, Overrun, or Lift action). (Basically a +4)
- You do not provoke an attack of opportunity for entering an opponent's square.

Alchemist [Skill]
Benefit:
+3 to Craft (Alchemy) checks. Gain Craft Potion. Each night while you sleep, you restock a hidden stash of up to 200gp/level in personal alchemical and potion supplies for no charge. Only you may use them, but you may not sell them or give them away.

Critical Precision [Combat]
Double the threat range of all weapons you wield, and gain +4 to confirm criticals. You can crit and sneak attack things that normally could not be crit. (i.e. Undead, Constructs, etc.)

Enhanced Dead [Necromantic] [Magic]
Benefit: Undead you raise gain:
+4 Str, +2HP per hit die, Bonus 1d6 Cold Damage with Natural weapons

Educated [Skill]
Benefit: Gain +3 to knowledge checks, if you roll lower than a 10 on knowledge checks, take a 10 instead.

Mage Slayer [Combat]
You have trained long and hard to kill magic users. Maybe you hate them, maybe you just noticed that most of the really dangerous creatures in the world use magic.
Benefits:
- Damage you inflict is considered "ongoing damage" for the purposes of concentration checks made before the beginning of your next round. All your attacks in a round are considered the same source of continuing damage.
- Creatures cannot cast defensively within your threat range.
- Your attacks ignore Deflection bonuses to AC.

Extra Spell [Magic]
Benefit: You may cast another spell available to you each day. You may change this spell each morning.

Reach Tactician [Combat]
Short Haft + Cometary Collision + Defensive Sweep
Benefit:
- You may attack with a reach weapon as if it was not a reach weapon. Thus, a medium creature would normally threaten at 5' and 10' with a reach weapon.
- Charging is an action that provokes an attack of opportunity from you. This attack is considered to be a "readied attack" if it matters for purposes like setting against a charge.

Thicket of Blades [Combat]
Benefit: While you are in this stance, any opponent you threaten that takes any sort of movement, including a 5-foot step, provokes an attack of opportunity from you. Your foes provoke this attack before leaving the area you threaten.
Your opponents also cannot use the withdraw action (PH 143) to treat the square they start in as no longer threatened by you.

Stand Still [Combat]
Benefit: - Whenever you land an attack of opportunity, the opponent must immediately halt their move action.

Rapid Shot [Combat]
Benefits: Improved Rapid Shot - Whenever you do a full round attack action, you may do one extra ranged attack at your highest BAB.
Whenever you make a ranged attack as a standard action, you may make two instead at your highest BAB.

Sniper [Combat]
Benefits: Any benefit of being within 30' of an opponent is retained out to 60'.
Your range increments are 50% longer than they would ordinarily be.
Sharp Shooting – Your ranged attacks ignore Cover Bonuses (total cover still bones you).
Opponents struck by your ranged attacks do not automatically know what square your attack came from, and must attempt to find you normally.

Mounted Combat [Combat]
Benefit:
Mounted Combat - Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll. (Essentially, the Ride check result becomes the mount’s Armor Class if it’s higher than the mount’s regular AC)
Ride-By-Attack - When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
Trample - When you attempt to overrun an opponent while mounted, your target may not choose to avoid you. Your mount may make one hoof attack against any target you knock down, gaining the standard +4 bonus on attack rolls against prone targets (see Overrun, page 157).
Spirited Charge - When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

Mounted Hunter [Combat]
Benefit:
Mounted Combat - Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll. (Essentially, the Ride check result becomes the mount’s Armor Class if it’s higher than the mount’s regular AC)
Mounted Archery - The penalty you take when using a ranged weapon if your mount is taking a double move or running is eliminated, and the penalty for using a ranged weapon when your mount is running is lessened from -4 to - 2. You can attack at any time during your mount's move.
Improved Rapid Shot - Whenever you do a full round attack action, you may do one extra ranged attack at your highest BAB

Proficiency [Skill]
Benefits: You are proficient with everything.

Supporting Fire [Combat]
Benefits: - When armed with a Ranged Weapon, you may make attacks of opportunity against opponents who provoke them within 30' of you. Movement within this area does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
- Whenever an ally within 30’ of you provokes an attack of opportunity, you may provide cover fire.
Covering Fire from Races of War
(Take an attack with your ranged weapon and roll a normal attack roll. Until the beginning of your next turn one of your allies may use the result of your attack roll as their Armor Class against one attack of opportunity.
Edge Option: If you have The Edge against an opponent whose attack of opportunity was negated by Covering Fire, your ranged weapon may hit them. Simply compare the attack roll to their armor class as if it was also a normal attack.)
-Level 3-
Wings of Evil [Magic] [Fiend]
Benefits: You have a fly speed double that of your normal ground speed. You have good maneuverability, and you must be able to flap your wings to stay aloft.
Special: If you would prefer to have insectile wings or feathered wings instead, you can do that. The maneuverability and speed are unchanged. Once the look and feel of the wings is selected it cannot be changed.

Great Whirlwind [Combat]
Benefit: As a full round action, you may take a regular move action and make a single attack against each opponent you can reach at any point during your movement. Roll one attack roll and compare to each available opponent's AC individually.

Arcane Archer [Combat] [Magic]
Benefit: - If you cast a Touch Spell, you can deliver it with a ranged weapon (though you must hit with a normal attack to deliver the spell).
- Whenever you fire an arrow you may add 1d6/2 levels Fire, Cold, Acid or Electricity Damage.
Fire Arrows catch things on fire. (Reflex Negates, use your DC for the Fire.)
Cold arrows apply Slow for 1 round. (Will negates)
Acid arrows cause targets to become sickened for 1 round. (Fort Negates)
Electric Arrows deal damage in a line within the first range increment. (Use one attack roll)
DC = 10 + ½ level + (Stat mod you use for ranged attacks)

Giant Slayer [Combat]
Everyone has a specialty. Yours is miraculously finding ways to stab creatures in the face when it seems improbable that you would be able to reach that high.
Benefits: - When you perform a "grab on" Grapple maneuver, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity.
- You gain a +4 Dodge bonus to your AC and Reflex Saves against attacks from any creature with a longer natural reach than your own.
- You have The Edge against any creature you attack that is larger than you. Also, an opponent using the Improved Grab ability on you provokes an attack of opportunity from you. You may take this attack even if you do not threaten a square occupied by your opponent.

Incredible Speed [Combat]
Increase your base movement by 30’.

Improved Mounted Combat
Benefit:
- You suffer no penalty to your ride or handle animal skill checks when training or riding unusual mounts such as magical beasts or dragons.
- You may use your Ride Check in place of your mount's Balance, Jump, Climb, or Reflex Saving Throws.
- Any time a spell effect would target your mount, you may elect to have it target you instead. Any time a spell effect would target you, you may elect to have it affect your Mount instead.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta »

Why not group feats like Warlock invocations?

Every 5 levels.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

We talked about that several comments ago
...You Lost Me wrote:Why do we need tiers? Prerequisites can still exist. Wings of Evil has a level prereq, just like Breath Weapon and Harmless Form.

4 levels is the difference between stinking cloud and solid fog. What is level-appropriate at level 5 will be annoyingly weak at level 8. Unless you're concerned about players not being able to process a lot of feats, I don't think another set of memorized tiers is a good way to go about it.
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Post by Red_Rob »

These mainly look good, however some feedback on a few oddities:
Energy Ray [Magic]
Benefit: Energy Ray (Su): Pick Fire, Electricity, Acid or Cold. You gain a ranged touch attack at medium range that deals 1d6/damage per level of that type. Pick one when you get the feat, and you can’t change it.
Seems a little good for the price of 1 feat at a feat per level. Medium range is over 100 feet, and a touch attack means you will be better at hitting than a warrior at low levels.
Healer [Skill] [Magic]
Benefit: +3 to all heal checks. You may use your heal checks to simulate the spell Cure Light Wounds with a DC 13 heal check.
Unlimited out of combat healing with no cost seems a bit much at level 1?
Challenge [Combat]
Benefit: As a Swift Action, you may mark an opponent as your primary foe. This foe must be within medium range and be able to hear the your challenge. If the target creature inflicts any damage on you before your next turn, the attempt fails. Otherwise, any attacks you use against the opponent during her next turn inflict an extra d6 of damage per character level. This effect ends at the end of her next turn, or when she has struck her opponent a number of times equal to the number of attacks normally allotted her by her Base Attack Bonus.
Not sure if this is actually a problem, but giving out defining class features kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth?
Critical Precision [Combat]
Double the threat range of all weapons you wield, and gain +4 to confirm criticals. You can crit and sneak attack things that normally could not be crit. (i.e. Undead, Constructs, etc.)
Giving all rogues the ability to sneak attack every target at level 3 seems a little too... easy. Feels like an auto pick for every sneak attack class which is a little lame.
Educated [Skill]
Benefit: Gain +3 to knowledge checks, if you roll lower than a 10 on knowledge checks, take a 10 instead.
Any reason this isn't a level 1 feat?
Rapid Shot [Combat]
Benefits: Improved Rapid Shot - Whenever you do a full round attack action, you may do one extra ranged attack at your highest BAB.
Whenever you make a ranged attack as a standard action, you may make two instead at your highest BAB.
Two shots as a standard action seems a little strong at level 3. Ranged combat already outshines melee somewhat and being able to retreat and fire two shots each round seems a bit much.

With feat retraining you can have feats that are simply better versions later on without worrying about players feeling like they wasted their earlier feats. So you could have regular Whirlwind as a level 1 feat for example.
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DenizenKane
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Post by DenizenKane »

Yeah, I see what you're saying Rob. I'll work on revising this, and educated was supposed to be level 1 lol.

Hmm, back to the drawing board on some of these, and I'll be back later with a revised list.
Last edited by DenizenKane on Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by DenizenKane »

So, I'm trying to get my campaign on the road, and I wanted this system to be functional, but i can't seem to be satisfied with any of my feat designs.

I was hoping you guys had some insight.

Theres a few problems:

I'm finding it conceptually difficult to come up with feats that are not numeric bonuses.

I'm not sure whether "combat" feats should be a thing, or be class features.

I'm not sure whether "skill" feats should be a thing or just features of training your skills.

I'm not sure where to draw the line between class features and feats.

What started as what I thought was a simple project opened up a can of worms for me, and I can't seem to get a list i'm satisfied with.

Is there a tangible benefit to even having the system? And, what features of the game should be controlled by it?
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Post by Wiseman »

For feats that are less numbers and more effects, spells are a good place to start. There's no reason feats shouldn't grant magical abilities, and it go a long way towards making them more interesting and impactful.
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Post by tussock »

Basic D&D 3.0 design was.

[*]Skills are for things you roll for, where they might succeed or fail, but aren't an attack roll or saving throw. The DCs are either fixed (so you can eventually win) or vary by opponent (so you can't).
[*]Feats are for things that are always on, or can be prepared for single use, or are a modified or replaced attack roll or saving throw.
[*]Class features are then for things that have charges per day that vary with level and stuff, plus your basic attack rolls and saving throws.

Things too bullshit to be a feat got mashed up into Prestige Classes. Things too good to be a feat got prerequisites, usually some of the less-good feats, or a stat you don't want.


So if your skill has a thing that comes online forever once you have 12 ranks, then that bit is a feat. If your feat is a d20+mods+level against a target number to succeed then it's a skill using ranks instead of level, unless it has charges in which case it's a class feature.

And you just write up the abilities so they're functional and usable, and then back-form them into the skill system, or feat list, or class features, or basic rules if thumbs are enough, once they're finished.

--

3.5 said skills that only some classes get are actually class features that use level instead of ranks. That's a good idea, Rogues and Bards should have more of those too.

3.5 and PF tried to crunch the skills down to a shorter list (though they still have a bad number, it should either be up to 9 skills or just bloat up and have 30+). Skills that do three obviously different things are just really annoying, most of those little things need to just be basic rules by virtue of thumbs, like with a level bonus.

Feats got to be intolerable bullshit that did almost nothing in most cases (conditional feats are basically poison) and really should've been added as minor clarifications to things you can just do by virtue of thumbs. Prerequisites made pre-building too important, organic characters sucked. Feats that do three different things are also somewhat annoying, as it's nice when things have names all their own.

Level-gating the feats into better sets at higher levels stops people feeling bad about selecting them later on. It also leaves your low-level choices constrained and thus enjoyable long after you've made them. Probably five sets rather than three, so you can sort them easier and choose less of them. Note that it's fine to just get to choose 1 feat from the top set, ever, to save you having to think up as many of them.

--

Exactly how much power you want in feats depends on if you have a class whose main deal is they get more feats. Like the 3e Fighter, that guy needs some balling feats, because +1/4 BAB and a few hit points is shit.

How much power you want in skills with big bonuses depends on if you have a class whose main deal is they get more skills. The 3e Rogue gets more skills but also gets Sneak Attack, so not so much.

Ditto for power in spells. As they're too hard to re-write, and there is a class that basically only gets spells and nothing else, it's not a bad point of comparison if you have a feat-only class. Feats however really shouldn't work like spells with uses and durations, but instead be always on or effectively at-will, even if they are Ironskin.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Shape Soulmeld is a feat. It gives you a bunch of things, probably all of those are balanced as a single feat in feat per level system (with the shaping of a soulmeld part removed and just getting the benefit).

Open Chakras are level gated feats, probbably everything you can get if you already had the soulmeld with an open chakra feat is fine once per level feat if you are high enough level.
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