Election 2016

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:04 pm

I'm just going to put it out there: While I didn't want Trump to win, he's still my president and I'm going to live with that. Yes, his policies will be bad. But until he actually does try to imprison Hillary or start cracking down on his other political opponents, his presidency remains legitimate. Even if we hate him.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:12 pm

Best thing I can figure to do right now is start documenting everything. Keep up with illnesses before and after food safety laws, if those do get rid of. Track the economy. Track hate crime rates. Make sure there's some measureable evidence of how bad shit has gotten, in case it comes handy later.

Shatner · Post by **Shatner** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:57 pm

Maxus wrote:Best thing I can figure to do right now is start documenting everything. Keep up with illnesses before and after food safety laws, if those do get rid of. Track the economy. Track hate crime rates. Make sure there's some measureable evidence of how bad shit has gotten, in case it comes handy later.

You have to be careful with that. I had a grandpa who went about collecting evidence of Dubya's misdeeds and from what I heard it made him and those around him pretty miserable. Eventually my grandma confronted him saying, "You'll probably die while that man is still in office so quit it before that presidency ruins your last years too." Sadly, she was right; he didn't live long enough to see Obama elected.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:57 pm

...You Lost Me wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote:There may be a silver lining to all of this...

The Republicans have been extremely successful in part because of the redistricting that occurred in 2010. We have 4 years of a Republican President and at least 2 years of a Republican Senate/House. Over the last several years they've been obstructionist but haven't actually DONE anything. That's going to change. Now, as long as there is still a country in 2020, a massive Democratic wave would allow a 'reset' to balance Republican/Democratic positions going forward.
I agree, I think this is a possibility. Especially seeing how liberal our younger generation is. People who will be voting in the 2020 election are 14-17 right now. If Republican policies fall apart, and the gerrymandering isn't aggressive enough to cut out Democratic votes, we may get a surge in liberal policy.

The Supreme Court is still going to be conservative until at least 2030, but one can hope for the future.

Also, this should probably be in the Election 2016 thread.

Now it is.

Sorry to burst your hopes, but I know from personal experience how this one goes: Reactionaries will destroy your country, all while claiming they're "undoing the Left's mistakes."

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:58 pm

Grek wrote:I'm just going to put it out there: While I didn't want Trump to win, he's still my president and I'm going to live with that. Yes, his policies will be bad. But until he actually does try to imprison Hillary or start cracking down on his other political opponents, his presidency remains legitimate. Even if we hate him.

I agree with this. As a person, I find him deplorable. But it's important to continue with the peaceful transition of power, and the office of the president deserves respect, even when we disagree with particular policies.

I'm curious to see whether he can even work with the Republicans (or even wants to). He could spend the next four years on a Presidential tour of Trump properties. Maybe?

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:58 pm

Professionally, I applaud the sentiment of documentation. Today, demoralized, I feel like we just got a lesson in 2016 America: facts and evidence don't matter.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:04 pm

I just want to remind everyone that I said that policy wise, Trump would be no worse than Rubio or Cruz. I guess we get to test that theory.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:16 pm

Kaelik wrote:I just want to remind everyone that I said that policy wise, Trump would be no worse than Rubio or Cruz. I guess we get to test that theory.

But were you expecting Rubio or Cruz backed by a Republican Senate and Congress and soon to be Supreme Court?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:24 pm

I've seen a number of people try to soften the blow by going on about checks and balances or the limits of the office. I can't find myself comforted with that though - having all three branches under conservative control means all of their demonstrably more extreme rhetoric has virtually no resistance now.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:28 pm

Kaelik wrote:I just want to remind everyone that I said that policy wise, Trump would be no worse than Rubio or Cruz. I guess we get to test that theory.

It just sucks because I'd still be pretty bummed about Rubio or Cruz.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:31 pm

Kaelik wrote:I just want to remind everyone that I said that policy wise, Trump would be no worse than Rubio or Cruz.

This is not a comforting thought.

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:40 pm

There are a lot of Red States. I mean they have a majority (or supermajority) in the State House and often have the Governor's mansion. At a state level, Republicans have been forced to worry less about ideology and find ways to govern effectively. Sure, there have been some bone headed policy decisions that reflect philosophical positions and are contrary to their constituencies (such as requiring transgendered people to use the bathroom that matches their sex at birth), but for the most part, conservative talking points are abandoned for actually solving problems.

Now, I don't know that it will work at the national level - a lot of things don't. But, for example, let's say they cap all taxes at 15%. And let's say revenue doesn't increase (because DUH). Conservatives profess to be averse to increasing the National Debt. They think they can cut spending to 'live within their means'. I don't think they can. Without Democrats to blame, they're going to have to solve the problem on their own. I'm not sure they would, but I struggle to imagine that they would persist in doubling down on a failed policy - and if they do, the people that currently benefit most from federal taxes (ie, the people in red states) are going to be the ones that vote them out office.

Working whites aren't blind to their economic self-interest. They legitimately believe that things have gotten worse. Many of them live in 'factory towns' that lost their major employer and the only work is the Piggly Wiggly. The economic recovery has been slow (and the economic crisis I think can be blamed more on Republicans than Democrats) and uneven - it has been slowest to reach people in rural areas. Being told 'things are getting better' isn't very helpful when things feel overwhelmingly bad.

Whatever the Democrats do in the next 2-4 years is going to have to be predicated on redressing failed policies by the Republicans. And they may be able to win a lot of working whites if they can show that EVERYONE benefits. That's what was sold to them with Reagonomics (a rising tide lifts all boats). Clinton (and Sanders) plan to make college affordable for students certainly appeals to college students, but only 34% of Americans over the age of 18 have a degree; the 66% of Americans that didn't even consider college an option couldn't really see that as a 'make the economy more fair' type of promise.

I'm deeply concerned about the future, but I'm not completely despondent. There is a lot of bureaucratic inertia that should keep things from completely falling apart, even if we pursue the wrong track.

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:01 pm

Oh God, this is so hilarious! Bwa ha ha Ha hee hee HA ho ho ha!

On a more serious note, I have no idea what Trump will do or try to do. But I felt I had a good grasp of what Hillary would do, and the unknown is better. Sometimes the devil you don't know is preferable.

So what now? I take it many of you are going to be moving to Canada. Better start learning that anthem, eh?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:01 pm

nockermensch wrote:But were you expecting Rubio or Cruz backed by a Republican Senate and Congress and soon to be Supreme Court?

Of course. If they won, it could only be with Republican Senate and House.

Whipstitch wrote:It just sucks because I'd still be pretty bummed about Rubio or Cruz.

Chamomile wrote:This is not a comforting thought.

I guess let me be clear. Any Republican is already so terrible that seemingly super bad republicans are really just average. Not saying that this should comfort anyone, just that if Rubio had won instead, women might have had a slightly easier time with the kind of misogyny that hurts less, but the rest of the country would probably be just as fucked.

deaddmwalking wrote:There are a lot of Red States. I mean they have a majority (or supermajority) in the State House and often have the Governor's mansion. At a state level, Republicans have been forced to worry less about ideology and find ways to govern effectively. Sure, there have been some bone headed policy decisions that reflect philosophical positions and are contrary to their constituencies (such as requiring transgendered people to use the bathroom that matches their sex at birth), but for the most part, conservative talking points are abandoned for actually solving problems.

You are a delusional idiot. Most of the conservative governors solve no problems and fuck their state into depression and shittiness that is only slightly mitigated by national policies that will now also be shitted.

deaddmwalking wrote:But, for example, let's say they cap all taxes at 15%. And let's say revenue doesn't increase (because DUH). Conservatives profess to be averse to increasing the National Debt. They think they can cut spending to 'live within their means'. I don't think they can. Without Democrats to blame, they're going to have to solve the problem on their own.

When they lower taxes on the rich (and raise them on the middle class and poor) and then also reduce spending, that doesn't solve the problem, that further fucks the economy. The ultrafucking of the economy that keeps over and over requiring Democrats to spend their entire first term just fixing the dumb republicans before them to break even, so that the country can vote in a Republican House to stall all progress.

deaddmwalking wrote:I'm not sure they would, but I struggle to imagine that they would persist in doubling down on a failed policy - and if they do, the people that currently benefit most from federal taxes (ie, the people in red states) are going to be the ones that vote them out office.

I know that you aren't writing a parody, because I know you, and that's the only reason this isn't like Poe's law. Republicans have been doing nothing but doubling, tripling, and quadrupling down on failed policies since you were fucking born. Everyone already saw that Reagan's policies didn't work during Reagan's term, Bush had to take the fall, and then his son just DID IT AGAIN. Now Donald Trump is promising that he will make the exact same mistakes, but YUGER AND MORE TREMENDOUSLY AND BIGLY and that this time it will work (also, without the dumb word choice, that's what Republicans in the house have been saying for 6 years).

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:04 pm

virgil wrote:I've seen a number of people try to soften the blow by going on about checks and balances or the limits of the office.

Since both Dubya and Obama spent a lot of time and effort weakening the limits on and increasing the powers of the Executive, I wouldn't be too reassured.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:29 pm

deaddmwalking wrote:Now, I don't know that it will work at the national level - a lot of things don't. But, for example, let's say they cap all taxes at 15%. And let's say revenue doesn't increase (because DUH). Conservatives profess to be averse to increasing the National Debt. They think they can cut spending to 'live within their means'. I don't think they can. Without Democrats to blame, they're going to have to solve the problem on their own. I'm not sure they would, but I struggle to imagine that they would persist in doubling down on a failed policy - and if they do, the people that currently benefit most from federal taxes (ie, the people in red states) are going to be the ones that vote them out office.

Living in the UK we have had a Conservative government spouting Austerity as the solution to all problems for six years now. They have never accepted that this was a bad idea and the majority of the electorate buys their constant talking up of this failed policy and is happy to keep voting for it.

The Republican base have been trained to accept whatever line the party apparatus feeds them and to blame all problems on whichever "other" they are demonising at the moment. Why would you think they would suddenly start critically analysing and thinking for themselves?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:32 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... ent-trump/

Republicans saying "Well actually, Debt not a problem when the Republicans are the ones running up the debt" already, and it's still fucking the ninth.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:42 pm

Austerity is a bit different from the "Starve the Beast" rhetoric of US Supply Siders. I don't believe that Torries respond to budget deficits by cutting taxes, typically speaking?

The policy program would be:
[*] Savage cuts to social spending. They'll effectively eliminate Food Stamps and some other programs, but these have been gutted anyway. Will they cut funding for the CDC and NIH? The big money is in, effectively, robbing from the Social Security and Medicare tax funds to pay for...
[*] Regressive taxation. Tax cuts to the rich, and phasing out things like the Earned Income Tax Credit so that lower in the income scale, taxes actually go up. This will still leave a big whole in the budget, amplified by...
[*] Tight money. Increases in the interest rate, which they will get by bullying the central bank.

Now Trump has guaranteed and doubled-down on the Regressive Taxation; but, he has also said he would renege or print money or (argle bargle) to pay our debts (?), so I don't even know.

The fact is, he's ignorant and temperamental and he may or may not simply give Pence carte blanche to actually govern the country. He's a know-nothing but he still insists on making decisions himself, apparently. If he does just let Pence run things, we'll get all 3 of those points and it will be a Kansas-level catastrophe on a national scale, plus some red meat for the Christian Conservatives and the KKK.

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:01 pm

Here's an interesting Cracked article about why Trump support was so much greater than expected: How Half of America Lost Its F*cking Mind

I found it entertaining.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:16 pm

Grek wrote:I'm just going to put it out there: While I didn't want Trump to win, he's still my president and I'm going to live with that. Yes, his policies will be bad. But until he actually does try to imprison Hillary or start cracking down on his other political opponents, his presidency remains legitimate. Even if we hate him.

Spoiler: when it happens in other parts of the world nobody calls candidates who are elected on the back of disenfranchising minorities and deeply partisan criminal investigations conducted by agents of their own party "legitimate." That he lost the popular vote is just an added 'fuck everything.'

Cut the centrist "I don't like him but he's my president" bullshit. It hasn't even been a day and I'm already tired of hearing it. If there is anything to actually learn from this election it's that our shit stinks and the game is only infinitesimally fairer here than in places like Russia or Brazil. People are stupid, yes. People are stupider than we thought, yes. But it remains true that this election was decided by small enough margins that the thumbs on the scales were the deciding factor. You're not even going to get anything for patting yourself on the back so fucking hard, because conservatives weren't going to do it for you this time and they aren't going to do it for you in 2020 or 2024 or any other time ever again.

You have to deal with Trump. You don't have to pretend he won a fair and free election, because he fucking didn't, unless you've suddenly decided minority votes don't count and we should use the FBI as an arm of our political campaigns in which case 1) yes, I guess this election was fair, and 2) of course Trump is your president.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:31 pm

The immediate concession to work with Trump is depressing, but not surprising. I mean, if you're a member of the Republican party you are firmly in power and it doesn't matter how much you personally care for the man, but if you're a Democrat you have to realize that the man is a symbol of the rampant perversion of your democratic institutions.

Instead of the entire country being comprised of used car salesmen, the legislative class is.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:34 pm

Occluded Sun wrote:Here's an interesting Cracked article about why Trump support was so much greater than expected: How Half of America Lost Its F*cking Mind

I found it entertaining.

Yes, I'm sure you did.

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:43 pm

Oh, I found it thoughtful as well.

Unlike the successive blog post, which I find absolutely hilarious.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:10 pm

I'm well aware that FBI partisanism is the reason why Trump won. I just don't see how refusing to acknowledge Trump is going to fix anything. What exactly do you want me to do here?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:13 pm

Grek wrote:I'm well aware that FBI partisanism is the reason why Trump won. I just don't see how refusing to acknowledge Trump is going to fix anything. What exactly do you want me to do here?

Also you know, that voter rights act and minority voter suppression. The thing to do is you know, try to prevent those things in the future.