Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Voss]

They characters should be built around pathfinder rules that don't function or do nothing. A dual wielding crossbow monk with prone shooter, for example.

Bonus points for collusion, and an entire stable of useless characters that can't function, with names that pun off the fact they can't work.

Granted its a little late to rub this puppy's nose in his own piss, but there should be some punishment for being a bad dog game designer house rule organizer.

[Slade]

They characters should be built around pathfinder rules that don't function or do nothing. A dual wielding crossbow monk with prone shooter, for example.

Bonus points for collusion, and an entire stable of useless characters that can't function, with names that pun off the fact they can't work.

Granted its a little late to rub this puppy's nose in his own piss, but there should be some punishment for being a bad dog game designer house rule organizer.

I really want to do it, but I'm not sure I could make a useless one by the 3rd (following PFT rules). Not so sure I could make a good background by then.

[Meikle641]

So, while I may have missed my desired Halloween deadline by a day, I want to present the first release from Heartbreaker Press: Red Dawn, by Virgil Clemens.

I have to say, I'm very pleased with how it turned out. The layout and typesetter (Simeon Cogswell) is very good and really made it shine. I'd have preferred some more artwork, but the budget didn't quite allow for it.

Print copies will be available by the end of the month, I hope. Just need to track down a missing source file from an artist, then I can check out some test copies.

[ishy]

You still get a saving throw vs say a fireball or death knell when you're unconscious.

Since paralyzed creatures drown or fall down then flying since they become immobile, and since the helpless condition includes the paralyzed condition, how to you figure than an unconscious lump of meat gets a Reflex save to avoid a fireball? I mean... really?

EDIT: Frank, ninjas, all that.

While you might not have believed me before, here is an official pathfinder FAQ for you.

Reflex Saves: If I’m paralyzed, held, dying, or otherwise completely immobilized or insensate, can I still attempt a Reflex save?

Yes, you can still attempt a Reflex save, but since your Dexterity is set to 0, you’ll have to replace your Dexterity bonus with a –5 penalty, so you’re not likely to succeed. If you do succeed, it might be due to the power of your <i>cloak of resistance</i>, a good angle for cover, or even luck. Either way, follow the rules of the spell for a successful Reflex save, even if this would change your space, like <i>create pit</i>. However, you lose evasion in these circumstances. If you are under the influence of a rare effect that causes you to be immobilized or insensate and allows ongoing Reflex saves to escape the effect, as an exception to the rule, you can use your full Dexterity bonus (instead of a –5 penalty) for the purpose of attempting those ongoing saves only, since your full Dexterity is at work within the confines of the spell, trying to break free.

And yes, the post on the pathfinder forum also has the broken <i> tags.

[Rawbeard]

yeah, I remember Reflex saves while dying. I get it from a certain game play stand point, but it is fucking retarded. just like you shouldn't get will saves when uncouncious, or fort saves when... dead.

[Judging__Eagle]

Ugh; that reminds me of fact that Frank gave a really good reason why Reflex Saves & Fortitude Saves should be inverted:

-You can't "dodge" a ducking fireball. You can be tough enough to soak it though (piss in your handkerchief vs. chlorine gas, survive prone in an explosion)

-You can't "instantly" toughen against a just injected Poison (not w/out being a fucking body-contact molecule manipulator Dune-style). You can however limit its contact w/ your body (avoid stinger, pinch out barb).

[Ice9]

yeah, I remember Reflex saves while dying. I get it from a certain game play stand point, but it is fucking retarded. just like you shouldn't get will saves when uncouncious, or fort saves when... dead.

Well you don't get any kind of saves when dead. Even if your corpse did, it would just be treated as a generic object.

Will saves while unconscious though - why wouldn't you? I think "struggling to resist a lethal nightmare while asleep" makes sense. Unconscious doesn't mean the mind is completely gone. That would be more like having your mental stats drained to zero.

[Slade]

yeah, I remember Reflex saves while dying. I get it from a certain game play stand point, but it is fucking retarded. just like you shouldn't get will saves when uncouncious, or fort saves when... dead.

Well you don't get any kind of saves when dead. Even if your corpse did, it would just be treated as a generic object.

Will saves while unconscious though - why wouldn't you? I think "struggling to resist a lethal nightmare while asleep" makes sense. Unconscious doesn't mean the mind is completely gone. That would be more like having your mental stats drained to zero.

So you should make your body Intelligent so it gets saves?

[tussock]

Starting to see why Gygax had the saves split on method of delivery rather than method of defence. Less offensive to people's imaginations if you're not telling them how they avoided the fireball, just that there was a spell and it gave you a save vs spells.

Save vs aimed (Dex), vs contact (Con), or vs target (Wis) probably would've worked.

[TiaC]

Starting to see why Gygax had the saves split on method of delivery rather than method of defence. Less offensive to people's imaginations if you're not telling them how they avoided the fireball, just that there was a spell and it gave you a save vs spells.

Save vs aimed (Dex), vs contact (Con), or vs target (Wis) probably would've worked.

Except that save bonuses depend on the character resisting them. What the hell does it mean that your character is really good at resisting targeted effects? Does having a high AC mean you get to ignore aimed saves?

[Voss]

Starting to see why Gygax had the saves split on method of delivery rather than method of defence. Less offensive to people's imaginations if you're not telling them how they avoided the fireball, just that there was a spell and it gave you a save vs spells.

Except his method was gibberish and you should feel bad for claiming you can see his reasoning.
Assuming a generic party of fighter/wizard/cleric/rogue, everyone at the table has a different number for taking half damage from a gout of fire and that number is also different (for each person) if the fire came from a dragon (breath weapon only), a spell or a wand. So seriously 12 different numbers for saving against fire.

[tussock]

Tiac: 3e save odds also depend on the character resisting them and the source. There are DCs, and there are save categories, and there are save mods, and those vary depending on all sorts of things. Spells can also have aiming mechanics that usually ignore armour but sometimes don't.

And yes, armour in general should have a number that increases some of your saving throw bonuses, as magic armour did in AD&D times, but that's an aside.

Voss: In 3e, everyone has a different bonus to save against a gout of fire and the odds are also different if the fire came from a dragon (breath only), a spell (depending on caster stats and spell levels), or a wand (which works slightly differently because haha of course it does), and also uses a different save category if a designer chose to do that, for say illusionary fire or internal fires. So every possible situation in the game has different odds for saving against fire. Compacting that down to 12 different numbers in the party not obviously terrible, but if you wanted you can still keep variable DCs and inflate it back up to a thousand combinations of numbers or whatever you like.

Either way, each character will still have 3 save bonuses on their character sheet. Or 6 if you want six saves, which you may or may not want in regards to various problems of categorisation.

[Voss]

I think you missed the point. A player rolls a reflex save, and that is the only shit they need to care about it, unless they insist on recalculating it every time using simple addition.

The player doesn't have to worry if his character is arbitrarily bad at random saving throw categories so has to worry if the red dragon is breathing, casting fireball, or using a wand of fireballs, because one or more of those will be death sentences for that particular class.

[hogarth]

I think you missed the point. A player rolls a reflex save, and that is the only shit they need to care about it, unless they insist on recalculating it every time using simple addition.

The player doesn't have to worry if his character is arbitrarily bad at random saving throw categories so has to worry if the red dragon is breathing, casting fireball, or using a wand of fireballs, because one or more of those will be death sentences for that particular class.

You realise that Pathfinder has fire spells that use Reflex saves (Fireball), Will saves (Heat Metal), and Fortitude saves (Boiling Blood), yes? It's really not that different philosophically speaking; they just use more sensible names than "Wands, Staves and Rods".

[OgreBattle]

Was there any Pathfinder Unchained option for changing how AC/FORT/REF/WILL works?

[Voss]

I think you missed the point. A player rolls a reflex save, and that is the only shit they need to care about it, unless they insist on recalculating it every time using simple addition.

The player doesn't have to worry if his character is arbitrarily bad at random saving throw categories so has to worry if the red dragon is breathing, casting fireball, or using a wand of fireballs, because one or more of those will be death sentences for that particular class.

You realise that Pathfinder has fire spells that use Reflex saves (Fireball), Will saves (Heat Metal), and Fortitude saves (Boiling Blood), yes? It's really not that different philosophically speaking; they just use more sensible names than "Wands, Staves and Rods".

Don't really give a fuck what pathfinder does, since its based in 3rd D&D logic anyway. But the sensibility is the point- common sense is a lot different, philosophically speaking, than random Gygaxian bullshit asspulls.

I'll admit Heat Metal is a weirdly and poorly designed spell, however. Why it is will, I have no idea, but reflex or fortitude don't make sense either- you can't dodge, tough out or will away the fact that your armor works up to 400 degrees (or whatever) then cools off again. But the spell is so damn weak that it shouldn't have a save at all.
Other than the fire tag (which is questionable, since there are other ways to heat metal), it doesn't seem particularly relevant- it doesn't involve dodging a ball of fire- just dealing with the fact that you're really hot now.

[Slade]

I think you missed the point. A player rolls a reflex save, and that is the only shit they need to care about it, unless they insist on recalculating it every time using simple addition.

The player doesn't have to worry if his character is arbitrarily bad at random saving throw categories so has to worry if the red dragon is breathing, casting fireball, or using a wand of fireballs, because one or more of those will be death sentences for that particular class.

You realise that Pathfinder has fire spells that use Reflex saves (Fireball), Will saves (Heat Metal), and Fortitude saves (Boiling Blood), yes? It's really not that different philosophically speaking; they just use more sensible names than "Wands, Staves and Rods".

Don't really give a fuck what pathfinder does, since its based in 3rd D&D logic anyway. But the sensibility is the point- common sense is a lot different, philosophically speaking, than random Gygaxian bullshit asspulls.

I'll admit Heat Metal is a weirdly and poorly designed spell, however. Why it is will, I have no idea, but reflex or fortitude don't make sense either- you can't dodge, tough out or will away the fact that your armor works up to 400 degrees (or whatever) then cools off again. But the spell is so damn weak that it shouldn't have a save at all.
Other than the fire tag (which is questionable, since there are other ways to heat metal), it doesn't seem particularly relevant- it doesn't involve dodging a ball of fire- just dealing with the fact that you're really hot now.

I like to assume it is mind over matter.
Design-wise I assume it so you have a spell to use on Warriors and Rogues.

[Kaelik]

It's a will negates spell that affects an attended object, it's like Shatter. It does the thing to your armor, and you get no saving throw against the damage, or it doesn't do the thing to your armor, because you made the will save that prevents the spell from affecting an attended object.

I'm not sure why you people are too stupid to pick up on this.

[rasmuswagner]

It's a will negates spell that affects an attended object, it's like Shatter. It does the thing to your armor, and you get no saving throw against the damage, or it doesn't do the thing to your armor, because you made the will save that prevents the spell from affecting an attended object.

I'm not sure why you people are too stupid to pick up on this.

Agreed, the odd one out is Grease, not Heat Metal.

[Voss]

its more about the logic of attended objects as a thing. Fight off mind control? Will. Realize you're weapons aren't actually snakes? Will. Stop your iron shirt from breaking or heating up? Uh... no. Not Will.

I could see inheriting your fortitude save just for simplicity's sake (rather than have a plethora of object saving throws like earlier editions), but your gear isn't being mind controlled, so fuck will saves.

[Prak]

I was thinking earlier about running games, and it occurred to me that the main thing I like in Pathfinder is the classes and their Archetypes. Also favored class meaning something.

Would using PF Classes but regular 3.X for everything else present any notable issues?

[Insomniac]

I think some of the weird stuff done to classes for the sake of weird stuff that hurt the purported 3.5 backwards compatibility like the Bard and Barbarian rounds stuff might be a pain. Other classes can just be immediately taken into 3.5 without issue I think, like Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Rogue, Fighter, Monk, etc. Not much needs to change. I think it would work out fine.

[radthemad4]

If you want to keep favored class bonuses, I'd recommend either getting rid of racial favored class bonuses, or allowing people to take whichever racial favored class bonus they like regardless of their actual race.

[momothefiddler]

Off the top of my head:

• A few of the skills are different, so you'll have to deal with that. Mostly this should be as easy as saying "No, Fly doesn't exist, so it's not a class skill for you" and moving on.
• Are you using PF's new classes? Even if you're only using classes that have counterparts in 3.5, using Archetypes means that you're gonna have some things that you're stripping the feat support from unless you import some feats, too, and you certainly don't want to import all feats, so that's a mess to look through.
• If you are using new PF classes but 3.5 rules otherwise, keep in mind that none of your races will have "Favored Class: Magus", so there's that. If you're also dropping multiclass xp penalties, that's not a big deal, but then anyone who plays a non-PF-ported race won't have a cool Magus favored class bonus in the list, so see what rad said.
• I'm not going digging but I'm pretty sure some class abilities affect CMB/CMD.
• "Cantrips" is technically a class feature, but it's more of a game design choice whether you want infinite 0-level spells. If you do, you might want to decide which system's spell lists you want
• Even if you don't go for infinite 0-level spells, some of the new classes (magus, summoner, probably others) have their own spell lists that make calls to a slightly different reservoir of slightly different spells. When a Bloodrager or Magus casts Mirror Image, are the images gonna have AC equal to 10 + the caster's size mod + the caster's Dex mod, or are they gonna have the caster's AC minus 5? What about when a Sorcerer casts it? What about an Arcanist, which is a new class but doesn't have its own list? Can Wizards cast Infernal Healing at all? If not, can Summoners?

[hogarth]

Would using PF Classes but regular 3.X for everything else present any notable issues?

It would probably confuse players who are familiar with one system or the other but not both.