Zombies Alterations?

[virgil]

The standard rules for zombies are to just give Toughness and lots of Hit Dice, weathering hits like a champ, shambling forward in the typical manner. Are there other ways to stat a weak, shambling, zombie that are equally good? At the moment, I'm just messing with the base 'tactical' profile, rather than anything dramatic.

• Unliving - Just add the subtype, which makes them need to eat people for nutrition and opens up the ability for crits to apply, though they are now vulnerable to sleep
• Damage Reduction - Reduce their HD/HP, but give them DR X/crits or precision and a specific ability to remove their usual immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks
• Natural Armor - Like DR, lower their HD/HP, remove all DR, and give them a huge natural armor bonus; like AC 21 and ~4hp for a zombie commoner; both DR & AC options make for lots of attacks not doing anything without rolling well (hitting their brain), but makes them much more vulnerable to magic damage
• Grapple - Improved Grab and/or Constrict (with or w/o Tome grapple rules), doing what shamblers traditionally do rather than 3.5's version that punches stuff

[Voss]

Grapplers make some sense (though it involves dealing with the grappling rules), but the high AC zombie just feels really bizarre.
It turns it into a comedy routine at best, or makes the PCs feel like a bag of incompetents at worst, as they slash and wiff repeatedly at mindless idiots that don't defend themselves.

Personally, while I find zombies tiresome and dreadfully overused, I think they work best as is. Mindless corpses shuffling around are an inconvenient obstacle, not a threat.

[Harshax]

Low Hit Dice, No DR, but high AC seems like the most succinct method of emulating how to dispatch Romero Zombies (head shots).

But that makes Michonne's zombie porters more difficult to emulate. She dismembers their arms and removes their jaws. Having a high AC doesn't reflect how easy it is to impale zombies or dismember them, which are perfectly valid ways to disable zombies without strictly killing them.

I don't think a high AC or Toughness should be used to template a zombie. They're incredibly easy to damage, but are only killed under specific circumstances (headshots). You could theoretically reduce a zombie to zero hit points, but it might still be capable of crawling out from under a bus and bite you.

Therefore, Hit points should be a reflection of mobility and ability to attack. And depending on the type of zombie a single hit die is perfect for reflecting shamblers that are relatively easy to dispatch and only dangerous in hordes.

[virgil]

It turns it into a comedy routine at best, or makes the PCs feel like a bag of incompetents at worst, as they slash and wiff repeatedly at mindless idiots that don't defend themselves.

You're not really whiffing when you miss because of natural armor, you're just not hitting them in a way that matters. I wouldn't call an Iron Golem as particularly dodgey either, even with an adamantine sword.

Hit points should be a reflection of mobility and ability to attack.

That's a fundamental revision to the rules themselves, which is way outside the drawing board I'm working with here. d20 simply doesn't handle dismemberment very well, so doing Michonne porter zombies can only ever be done with an zombie-specific special quality.

Here's a sample zombie using the AC & Grapple option.
Shambler
Size/Type Medium Undead
Hit Dice 1d12 (6hp)
Initiative -3
Speed 30' (6 squares)
AC 21 (-3 Dex, +14 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple +0/+1
Full Attack Slam +1 (1d6+1)
Space/Reach 5'/5'
Special Qualities Single actions only, darkvision 60', undead traits
Saves Fort +0, Ref -1, Will +2
Abilities Str 13, Dex 5, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1
Feats Improved Natural Armor
Challenge Rating 1/2

Combat
The zombie’s standard tactic is to, whenever possible, attempt to use the Hold Down maneuver from Races of War. The rules for such a maneuver are reprinted below. Yes, a zombie will provoke an AoO, but that isn't a concern to them.

Hold Down
Sometimes you want to pin an opponent to the ground. First, make a touch attack. Then, make a Grapple Check (BAB + Strength Modifier + Special Size Modifier) with a DC of 10 + Defender's Grapple Check Modifier. If you succeed, your opponent is pinned for one round. They can't move, and you may put ropes or manacles on them if you wish with an attack action. At the end of any turn you are pinning your opponent, you may inflict unarmed or constriction damage. With subsequent attack actions, you may attack with natural weapons or light weapons with no penalty.
Escaping a Pin: If you're pinned you can attempt to fight back, but you're prone and you suffer an additional -4 penalty to attack the creature pinning you (generally a -8 total penalty to attack your attacker). You can get out with an attack action by making a Grapple or Escape Artist check with a DC of 10 + your opponent's Grapple Modifier.

Single Actions Only (Ex) Zombies have poor reflexes and can perform only a single move action or attack action each round. A zombie can move up to its speed and attack in the same round, but only if it attempts a charge.

[Voss]

It turns it into a comedy routine at best, or makes the PCs feel like a bag of incompetents at worst, as they slash and wiff repeatedly at mindless idiots that don't defend themselves.

You're not really whiffing when you miss because of natural armor, you're just not hitting them in a way that matters. I wouldn't call an Iron Golem as particularly dodgey either, even with an adamantine sword.

You also have a big pile of bonuses when you run into iron golems.

It's all about the impression the encounter gives off. An iron golem is a tough opponent, zombies are shit opponents. If fucking zombies suddenly make the party feel like monks, they're going to have a bad time.

Yes, you can rationalize natural armor bonuses. But in play most people will simply focus on the fact that they're missing when they obviously shouldn't. And +14 is complete bullshit for a CR 1/2 critter. The fuck?

[Prak]

Yeah, honestly, DR X/crits and precision is a better way to do it, I think. Especially if called shots count as precision (I don't remember how called shots are supposed to work and can't be arsed to look)

[virgil]

And +14 is complete bullshit for a CR 1/2 critter. The fuck?

Who cares what the specific bonus is? It's the final AC that matters - a regular zombie has double to triple the HP and DR 5.

[Ice9]

I think some kind of "get back up after being killed" ability might work better. Low hp, but if killed by a non-crit then on its next turn roll d6:
1-2: Really dead
3: Back to full hp, missing an arm (no grapple)
4: "", missing a leg (half speed, 5' speed if both gone)
5: "", eyes fall out (blinded)
6: "", damaged torso (-2 to everything)

Yeah, it's kind of a production, but that's kind of the point of having special rules for this. If you just want mobs of zombies that are easily dealt with, stick with the hp and just describe hits as them taking significant damage but not dropping, rather than the usual "glancing wound" flavor.

[Chamomile]

If you really want a system that models zombie resilience properly, what you want is a system that models hit locations and to have zombies' hit charts not have any fatal results anywhere but the head. That system is very much not D&D, so yeah, you're going to have to accept some compromises. I would give them very high HP but very low AC, but then a thing where anytime they get crit they are auto-dead regardless of remaining HP. The idea being that zombies are not very hard to hit or damage at all, but you have to chop them up into a million pieces to actually destroy them, unless you get a headshot. For added flavor, give them a couple of HP breakpoints where they take wounds, so if their max HP is 80 and they drop below 60, you roll on a chart and maybe they lose an arm or whatever. This is kind of like Ice9's suggestion except that it makes it less random how much damage you have to pile onto them to kill them without the crit, which I personally prefer, although you could also make a strong argument for having zombies usually come back once or twice (and thus effectively have 2-3x whatever their printed HP is) but sometimes they come back like five times and comes off like it's the terminator or something.

[OgreBattle]

If you're a modern day civilian with household tools then yeah zombies are gonna be tough and weather your baseball bat attacks. But if you're a fantasy berserker with a 2 meter long sword then killing a civilian-turned-zombie is going to be easier than killing a living guy wearing plate armor.

d20 simply doesn't handle dismemberment very well

I could see giving zombies sunder-able parts like hydras and tentacles get, but then you're heading into "I called shot to decapitate the guy!" territory.

[virgil]

I'm wholly against charts, as that's a terrible thing when you decide throw a baker's dozen of them in an encounter. For the same reason, multiple HP breakpoints are also a bad idea. I can maybe see an argument for an effect when they're bloodied, which would justify a decent HP (not 80 or whatever).

But if you're a fantasy berserker with a 2 meter long sword then killing a civilian-turned-zombie is going to be easier than killing a living guy wearing plate armor.

That's a debatable conclusion. AC explicitly represents how hard it is for you to land a solid, damaging blow; and as gruesome as it might look, a zombie unhindered w/a sword through the lung sounds like a failure to make a damaging blow to me. The definition of DR actually conflicts more, as that's defined as a wound that either heals immediately or bounces off, neither of which happen. That the colloquial understanding of DR and AC differ sufficiently from their formal definitions is a compelling argument; though could a DM remembering to describe it properly overcome that?

It does sound like using the grappling part will work fine, at least.

[Leress]

Why not just give the zombie a vulnerability to criticals? No DR or stupid high AC, maybe some extra HP.

Vulnerability to Criticals
Some creatures have vulnerability to criticals. Such a creature takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from the effect, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure.

[Ice9]

The problem with using high AC is that while "AC as not necessarily bouncing off / HP as not necessarily hitting" is given some lip service, there are a number of effects out there that assume "hit the AC = caused injury", and vice versa. Like the Harpoon, for instance. It really should be easy to harpoon a zombie, and with high AC it isn't. Also, on a game level, enemies with high AC / low HP feel more frustrating than vice-versa.

I kind of like the "high HP, but dies on crit" idea though. Also, for dismembering effects, you could tie it to "takes at least X damage in one attack", which may be faster to keep track of than breakpoints.

[angelfromanotherpin]

The problem with using high AC is that while "AC as not necessarily bouncing off / HP as not necessarily hitting" is given some lip service, there are a number of effects out there that assume "hit the AC = caused injury", and vice versa. Like the Harpoon, for instance. It really should be easy to harpoon a zombie, and with high AC it isn't.

This is true. You could give them something like a split AC, where if you hit them by a margin of 8 or more (the same margin needed when trying to hit someone who only has their head poking above cover) it counts as a crit.

[RobbyPants]

Especially if called shots count as precision (I don't remember how called shots are supposed to work and can't be arsed to look)

So far as I know, 3E has no such mechanics. 2E allowed for them with -4 to hit, but they had no standard effects.

[Prak]

I think I was remembering the damage to specific areas "sidebar" in the DMG and adding in classic "wait, that's a houserule?" crap. I'm guessing the -4 to hit thing, for me, came from someone who played 2nd and then didn't know 3rd removed that rule.

[maglag]

Libris Mortis has a bunch of variants for the "classic" undead.

Bloodthirsty Zombie: Gain a bite attack with improved critical that deals Con damage, still retain slam attack, +1 CR

Diseased Zombie: Inflicts Filth Fever on anyone they hit or that hits them with an unarmed/natural attack, -4 penalty on the save if you're grappling with them, +1/2 CR

Fast Zombie: +30 movement speed, +2 Dodge to AC, can take normal actions (but only one attack per turn tops), +1/2 CR

Hunting Zombie: Gain Scent and Track and 14 Wis, +1/2 CR.

Unkillable Zombie: +2 HP per HD, Improved Toughness, Fast Healing 5, +1 CR.

[tussock]

The answer to harpooning high-AC Zombies is that a harpoon does not use the AC/hp mechanics to determine if it latches onto you.

Specifically, it can catch in the flesh of a Zombie because they have a crap Ref save, likely without hurting it, and can catch in the armour of a lowbie Fighter because they have a crap Ref save, likely without hurting them.

And your high level Rogue with a great Ref save might well be scratched by the harpoon on the way past, but he's not going to get caught on it, because fuck that. Same for nets and whatever other shit doesn't need to hurt something to cause a status effect. Saving throws.


Then things that can be regularly one-shotted by heroes and giants but newb commoners wail on to little effect have high AC. And that suits Zombies just fine. It's also not really how 3e works on a conceptual basis.

[virgil]

The answer to harpooning high-AC Zombies is that a harpoon does not use the AC/hp mechanics to determine if it latches onto you.

That's halfway already the case, as the harpoon does include a Reflex save. The vanilla zombie is still fairly resistant to the harpoon because of their DR/slashing making it less likely for it to do damage.

Though really, most AC dependent effects like that usually require a touch AC, which the high AC zombie will definitely not have.

[RobbyPants]

Fast Zombie: +30 movement speed, +2 Dodge to AC, can take normal actions (but only one attack per turn tops), +1/2 CR

Ironically, this rule removes the ability for zombie hydras to make one attack per head.

[Judging__Eagle]

The answer to harpooning high-AC Zombies is that a harpoon does not use the AC/hp mechanics to determine if it latches onto you.

Harpoons should simply target touch AC; the way that nets (and other "non-damaging" attack options work) already do.

In the case of a harpoon, the initial damage inflicted should be low (a d4 or d3), and taking any damage renders the harpoon "anchored" (however one wants to define that); and removal should result in automatically taking damage as if a Critical Hit has been confirmed; the crit modifier should be either x3 or x4.