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[WIP][Tome-ish]Mages With Style

 
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Prak
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:41 am    Post subject: [WIP][Tome-ish]Mages With Style Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tome seems, at least experientially, to go off the rails at about the point that we start trying to make new full casting stuff. I mean... it goes off the rails with some stuff that isn't even about casting, but trying to give full casters tome-style stuff, like scaling feats, or more efficient metamagic, or whatever, really fucking drives the game off the track. Part of that may be scaling feats, too...

But the idea of horizontal power and reducing character resource costs for minor things and just putting more fluff into stuff is all good.

Magical Feats
Basically, all the blame for spells per day rests solely on the shoulders of Jack Vance and the tip of Gary Gygax's hard-on for Vance. In pretty much any other story, spellcasting doesn't use some kind of hard drive or pill-box of the mind, it's just a bunch of things you know how to do, and either takes time, meaning you're limited by how much you can stall and get enemies to not shoot you in the head while dropping that fireball, or it takes energy, meaning you're limited by just how much stamina you have. And often people have tons of tricks they can do all day even so.

While letting someone take a feat to use, say, Shapechange, at will is maybe questionable, letting them pick up always-on detect [whatever] is so innocuous that you get it free with first levels that give you other things. So there's definitely some room for at will magical abilities that you can pick up with feats, and even WotC recognized this and started tinkering with it with Reserve feats. I'm not going to allege that Reserve feats were any good, because I barely have the analytical tools for that assertion, and I haven't really even looked at that question, but I know they're cool and fun. So there's a promising concept there.

Also, I'm working on these to hang Arcane and Divine traits, a la Fiendish Traits, on, because there's no way to make late-series Voldemort in D&D short of very specific, sub-optimal, non-casting classes, and that's a shame.


[Arcane] and [Divine] Traits
In a lot of stories, magic shapes those who use or are exposed to it. In Harry Potter, Voldemort became less and less human as more and more horcruxes were destroyed, but also because of his exposure to dark magic. The fact that he began to take on snake qualities, specifically, is mostly aesthetic (I can only assume snakes burned down Jo's childhood home) and partially because one of his last horcruxes was a snake. In Fable, the changes to your appearance are based on your moral actions, but the idea is the same, and, frankly, you do tend to use and get exposed to a good bit of magic in Fable. Mozenrath traded the flesh of one arm for magical power, notably with no apparent loss of function. And then there's the litany of signs of magical and supernatural power you can find in folk lore (which actually tend to break down to "here, lets give you a reason to ostracize ugly people!").

In a lot of fantasy, people tend to just give their wizards a starry robe and a book, and their priests a garishly large holy symbol and the self-righteousness of the entire GOP, and be done with it. But that's really boring, and there totally needs to be a way to say that your sorcerer looks kind of dragon-y without having to use shitty races like spellscale, or eat LAs for shit like Draconic or Half Dragon. I mean, there's no particular reason for your wizard to have glowing eyes and runes etched on every inch of their body, but... c'mon, why not?

These work like Fiendish Traits- for every feat with the [Arcane] or [Divine] tag, you gain a physical trait. You may wish to have casters mentally diverge from non-casters as well. There are sample mental traits which can be acquired when a new spell level is, or in place of physical traits if this is desired.

Example Physical Traits
  • Your eyes glow some color. Usually this corresponds to either typical moral color symbolism (red is bad, gold is good), or the kind of magic you use (orange for fire, blue for ice, etc)
  • Runes cover your skin. Maybe they glow.
  • Facial and body hair takes on the texture of fur
  • Your ears and/or nose take on an appearance similar to those of your familiar
  • Your eyes become inhuman (solid-coloured, hourglass pupils, slitted like a snake or cat, they protrude slightly on very small stalks, etc)
  • An unfelt breeze or current constantly tussles your hair and clothing
  • Your skin takes on a sheen
  • One pair of appendages is a different color from the other(s)
  • You sprout a pair or set of short tendril-like whiskers or spines around you mouth or on your chin
  • You have a stylized wound which does not heal (but also does not impair you in any significant way)
  • Fingers and toes have extra joint
  • Hair grows down your middle fingers
  • Hair becomes a vibrant shade of an unnatural color
  • You glow faintly at all times. This doesn't produce light, but may make you slightly easier to spot (should never be more than a 1 point difference).
  • Small magical constructs float around you at all times. These may appear as motes of light, sparkles, flower petals, butterflies or other flying insects, smalls stones, or anything else, really.
  • Your touch causes plants to become modestly healthier (no mechanical effect), and flowers will bloom at it. Walking barefoot on natural materials will cause flowers to sprout and bloom in your path, and they will persist for a number of minutes equal to your casting stat mod
  • One of your arms is transmuted (harmlessly and with no mechanical effect) into another substance or alien form (stone, metal, chitinous and ending in a pincer, bare bone, etc)
  • Your hair takes on the appearance of your primary theme of magic (becomes like flame, vines, a shock of icicles standing straight out, etc). This has no mechanical effect.


Example Mental Traits
  • Distaste or condescension for people who cannot use magic
  • Discomfort in environments or settings opposed to your theme of magic (evil temples for good clerics, meat lockers and cold terrain for fire mages, etc)
  • You have a compulsive desire to hoard mundane wealth, such as precious metals, precious stones, and art.
  • You cannot abide the presence of people diametrically opposed to your own alignment
  • You believe you're above mortal contracts and will breach them unless otherwise coerced.
  • You forget that noncasters are people and treat them as tools or toys.


[Arcane] and [Divine] Feats
In order to take an Arcane feat you must be able to cast arcane spells. To take a Divine feat, you must be able to cast divine spells. Arcane casters with the Arcane Disciple feat may take Divine feats and divine casters of gods with the Magic domain can take Arcane feats. All spells and abilities granted by [Arcane] and [Divine] feats are supernatural abilities unless otherwise stated. Other than being supernatural, using an spell-mimicking ability follows all the usual rules for the spell except for components (unless otherwise noted, they require the same casting time, last the same duration, etc, but never require material, vocal or somatic components).

Liminal Being
Though not actually a caster, you straddle the line between the worlds mundane and magical. It's kind of uncomfortable.
Benefit: When you select this feat, choose one of the following options-
Arcane Being: You are suffused with arcane energy, changing you on a fundamental level to allow you access to the mysteries of the universe. You gain Knowledge (Arcane) as a class skill regardless of your actual class, and may take arcane feats as a Sorcerer or Wizard of your character level-2 (your virtual caster level). In addition, you may derive nourishment from arcane energy. A 1st level spell slot is equivalent to food for one day, and you may also attempt to consume spell energy to heal yourself. In order to consume spell energy you must first overcome the spell (ie, make the relevant save, if any. For spells that use an attack action, roll a Fort save as if the spell allowed a save). Then you must make a DC (15+spell level) Knowledge (Arcana) check. If you succeed, you heal 1d6 hit points per spell level. Allied arcane casters may expend their spell slots purposefully to heal you, requiring neither of these rolls.
Divine Being: You have awakened a divine spark within yourself, and the multiverse recognizes this holy energy. You gain Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill regardless of your actual class, and may take Divine feats as a Cleric or Druid of your character level-2 (your virtual caster level). Also, your soul becomes very at home in your body. They are still distinct, so you still have a dual nature, unlike outsiders, but when you die, your soul does not move on unless you wish to and you are immune to effects which would trap your soul unless they originate from a character with at least 4 more levels than you have. Effectively, spells which raise the dead always succeed on you, so long as you want them to. Your body is still subject to the time limits of those spells, but you may double those limits. Further, you are sustained by the energies of the multiverse. You have no need to eat, drink, or sleep (though you may if you wish), and you may heal your body in meditation by taking fifteen minutes to rest and making a Knowledge (Religion) roll at DC 20 to heal 1d6 hit points. You may heal an additional 1d6 hit points for every 5 points by which you beat this DC. You may also replicate the effects of Regenerate with an hour of uninterrupted meditation and a DC 30 Knowledge (Religion) check.
Planar Being: A bud of planar energy has developed within you, and you have nurtured it into a planar bleed which courses through your body. You gain Knowledge (the Planes) as a class skill regardless of your actual class, and may choose to count as an Elemental (specific element), Fiend, or Celestial for the purposes of feats. You gain Resistance 5 to your choice of Acid, Cold, Electricity or Fire, and a healing ability. If you chose Elemental, you may heal through exposure to your element. This is identical to the healing ability of Divine Being, except that it requires contact with Air, Earth, Water or Fire as appropriate. If you chose Celestial, you may treat vials of holy water as potions of cure light wounds. If you chose Fiend, you may treat vials of unholy water or alchemist's fire as potions of cure light wounds.
If a feat would reference the highest spell level you can cast, use half your virtual caster level instead.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, choosing a different Knowledge each time. You may choose Knowledge (the Planes) three times, choosing a different category of feats to be able to take each time. Neither of these options are particularly recommended, but you can.

An Ice Personality [Arcane, Divine]
Some say you're a cold person. But given time, they see you're ice enough.
You have ice powers.
Benefit: Your touch is freezing. Given prolonged contact, you can create a thin layer of ice or frost on any surface. This ice is completely mundane and will thaw normally. Turning this off requires conscious thought, but not active concentration, and takes merely a free action to deactivate it for one turn.
Basic effect: Your touch deals 1 cold. A number of times per day equal to your casting mod, you may mimic Chill Touch. At 4th level, you may use Chill Touch at will.
Advanced effect--5th level: When you reach 5th level, you may mimic the spell Orb of Cold a number of times per day equal to you casting mod. At 8th level, you may use Orb of Cold at will.

Friend to All Living Things [Divine]
You walk around the woods and are surrounded by little cute animals like your own fuzzy entourage. The less cute animals tend to slink along out of sight.
Benefit: You are considered a friend to all animals and plants.
At Will: You may spend 1d4+1 rounds singing, talking, or similar to mimic the effects of the spell Calm Animals. In addition to the normal effect, you may also affect Plant creatures.
Hourly: A number of times per hour equal to your casting mod, you may mimic the effects of Charm Animal, also affecting Plant creatures.
Daily: A number of times per day equal to your casting mod, you may mimic a Summon Natures Ally spell of level equal to half your virtual caster level as a Calling effect. Other than being a calling effect, this effect functions in all other ways identically to casting Summon Nature's Ally.

Great Balls of Fire [Arcane, Divine]
You can conjure orbs of fire in your hand, and then throw them at people.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can conjure a number of orbs of flame equal to the number of attack actions you can take (including two weapon fighting and such), which appear in you hands and floating around you. You may then make a melee or ranged touch attack to hit someone with an orb of flame, dealing a number of d4s of fire damage equal to the highest level of spells you can cast, plus your casting mod. Each attack you make expends an orb of fire. Orbs remain until they are used, or until end of combat, and shed light as a torch. If conjured outside of an encounter, orbs exist essentially indefinitely (as they can be renewed as a swift action).

Healing Hands [Divine]
You've got the touch!
Benefit: You may mimic the effects of Bless Water at will. In addition, you may mimic the effects of Cure Wounds spells at an appropriate rate according to the following list. Spell level is as for a cleric, X equals your casting mod.
  • Spell level equals half caster level: x/hour
  • Spell level equals (half caster level)-2: 2x/hour
  • Spell level equals (half caster level)-4: 1/minute
  • Spell level equals (half caster level)-6: at will

Advanced effect--15th: you may use the Mass version of these spells.

Hot Headed (Arcane, Divine)
You have a fiery temper. Oh, and you can set people on fire.
Benefit: Your touch is burning. Given prolonged contact, you can ignite flammable materials. This fire is completely mundane and requires the same fuel and conditions as normal fire to exist. You may also conjure fire similar to a torch or lesser flame. Turning off your burning touch or conjuring flame requires conscious thought, but not active concentration, and takes merely a free action to deactivate it for one turn. At your option, if you have a trait which says a part of you is on fire, you may have this ability manifest as part of that trait so that it actually does damage. If you choose to do this, suppressing your fire takes a move action.
Basic effect: Your touch deals 1 fire. A number of times per day equal to your casting mod, you may mimic Burning Hands. At 4th level, you may use Burning Hands at will.
Advanced effect--5th level: When you reach 5th level, you may mimic the spell Orb of Flame a number of times per day equal to you casting mod. At 8th level, you may use Orb of Flame at will.

Hurting Hands [Divine]
You've got the power!
Benefit: You may mimic the effects of Curse Water at will. In addition, you may mimic the effects of Inflict Wounds spells at an appropriate rate according to the following list. Spell level is as for a cleric, X equals your casting mod.
  • Spell level equals half caster level: x/hour
  • Spell level equals (half caster level)-2: 2x/hour
  • Spell level equals (half caster level)-4: 1/minute
  • Spell level equals (half caster level)-6: at will

Advanced effect--15th: you may use the Mass version of these spells.

Magical Sleuth [Arcane]
Your eyes are open to the mysteries of magic. Mostly those mysteries glow, and sometimes it kind of hurts.
Benefit: You may use Detect Magic at will.
Basic Effect: You may mimic the effects of Identify at will with a fifteen minute ritual. This ritual mostly involves chanting and making magic sigils, not 100 gp of powdered pearls.
Advanced Effect--4th level: You may mimic the effects of Arcane Sight at will.

Nystul's Spying Apparatus [Arcane]
You are able to call into being an array of small magical sensors which convey information to you.
Benefit: You may use Arcane Eye once per hour per point of Int mod, except that you may create an Arcane Eye, Ear, Hand, Nose or Tongue which behaves as the spell in all ways but conveys the appropriate sensory information. At fifth level, you may use this ability at will. Multiple sensors can be conjured at once, but each one counts as a use of this ability.

Obiken's Mystical Hand [Arcane]
You can manipulate small objects at a distance. This is useful when you're too lazy to grab a beer or get up for the remote.
Benefit: You can use Mage Hand at will, except that the weight limit is 5 lbs per level. At 5th level, you may instead use Telekinesis with this same weight limit, adding your level to the pounds per level (ie, 5+level pounds per level, or 10 pounds per level at 5th level). At 15th level, you may use the Telekinesis with it's normal 25 pounds per level weight limit.

Potion Weaponizer [Arcane, Divine]
You can channel magical energy into a held potion, catalyzing a variety of magical reactions.
benefit: You may mimic the effects of the spell Energize Potion (BoED) on a potion within line of sight and line of effect. At 5th level, you can alter potions in other ways. By using this ability, you may choose to turn a potion into any poison (including positoxins and ravages), drug, disease (including afflictions) or alchemical substance instead of energizing it by expending magical reagents equal to 1/3 the cost of the desired substance. The range of this ability is the same as the spell (meaning, yes, you can prepare an action to use it on a potion and turn an enemy's Potion of Cure Serious Wounds into Black Lotus Extract if you're in range and have the resources).

This Little Light of Mine [Arcane, Divine]
You glow with the pure light of your god's love. Or his hatred. Whatever. Or maybe you just have a very bright personality.
Benefit: You may may mimic the effects of the spell Light at will with the additional option of making yourself or any part of yourself (like your eyes) the target. Doing so, even targeting your eyes, does not impair your vision in anyway, and you may choose to have the light manifest as though created by any kind of mundane light source (ie, candle, torch, lantern, etc), so long as you do not exceed the limitations of the spell light. At 6th level, you may mimic the effects of the Daylight spell in the same way. Your skin is considered light-proof for the purposes of covering your own light effects (ie, you can use this ability on your eyes, and then close your eyes to hide the light).

Triaj's Sight [Divine]
You know who's alive, who's dead, and who's close to dead.
Benefit: You may mimic the effects of Deathwatch at will. This is not evil in any way.


just holding onto the code for when I come back to this
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There needs to be more [Divine] only feats, admittedly.
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
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Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
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You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.


Last edited by Prak on Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:42 am; edited 7 times in total
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Hicks
Duke


Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Blytheville, AR

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: [WIP][Tome-ish]Mages With Style Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So I'm just gonna open a dialog with you about this WIP:

Prak wrote:
All spells and abilities granted by [Arcane] and [Divine] feats are supernatural abilities unless otherwise stated. Other than being supernatural, using an spell-mimicking ability follows all the usual rules for the spell except for components (unless otherwise noted, they require the same casting time, last the same duration, etc, but never require material, vocal or somatic components).


Supernatural abilities also ignore spell resistance, and do not provoke any AoOs when used in melee. This is important for later.

So let's compare and contrast these two feats you're working on:

Quote:
An Ice Personality [Arcane, Divine]
Some say you're a cold person. But given time, they see you're ice enough.
You have ice powers.
Benefit: Your touch is freezing. Given prolonged contact, you can create a thin layer of ice or frost on any surface. This ice is completely mundane and will thaw normally. Turning this off requires conscious thought, but not active concentration, and takes merely a free action to deactivate it for one turn. Usually, your touch is merely uncomfortable, dealing 1 point of cold damage per round, and, given contact over a long enough period of time, is treated as exposure to Extreme Cold. Once per day per point of Casting Mod, however, you may use mimic the effect of Chill Touch. At 4th level, you have no daily limit on this, and gain Chill Metal at that rate (Casting Mod/Day). At 7th level, you may use Chill Metal at will.

Obiken's Mystical Hand [Arcane]
You can manipulate small objects at a distance. This is useful when you're too lazy to grab a beer or get up for the remote.
Benefit: You can use Mage Hand at will, except that the weight limit is 5 lbs per level. At 5th level, you may instead use Telekinesis with this same weight limit, adding your level to the pounds per level (ie, 5+level pounds per level, or 10 pounds per level at 5th level). At 15th level, you may use the Telekinesis with it's normal 25 pounds per level weight limit


So I'm just gonna come out and say it: nobody cares about chill/heat metal, and at will Telekinesis is bonkers powerful.

I mean, I love me some Telekinesis at will, but your restrictions only kinda affect the "sustained force" version, the versions we actually care about are compleatly unaffected. Combat Maneuver does not have a weight limit, works out to (at 5th level) 650', and is no longer susceptible to spell resistance, while the Violent Thrust version doesn't care about the 50lb weight maximum because you are throwing at least 5lbs of Alchemist Fire for 5 touch attacks out to 650', which stacks with Power Attack (touch attacks) and Point Blank Shot (First and only range increment), and Blitz (Provoke an AoO while 600+ feet away from anybody who can stop you), and that is before any shenanigans of using a larger vial of alchemist fire or casting greater magic weapon for 50 +magic attacks

At will. 4 levels before the wizard can even cast the spell. It is seriously up there for "Best Feat In the Game", up there with [Leadership], Greater Teleport [Monstrous], and Wings of Evil/Good. And even though it costs 2 feats, it still trumps basically anything else in the game at level 5+ for all non-casting classes.

Did you know that [Tome] Barbarians can totally use (Su) abilities while in Rage?

Basically what I'm getting at here is that a bunch of these feats do not meaningfully scale to something that you would care to use a Standard Action to activate, and you should never give an At Will ability at a level before it could be cast by a preparation caster.

Quote:
This Little Light of Mine [Arcane, Divine]
You glow with the pure light of your god's love. Or his hatred. Whatever. Or maybe you just have a very bright personality.
Benefit: You may may mimic the effects of the spell Light at will with the additional option of making yourself or any part of yourself (like your eyes) the target. Doing so, even targeting your eyes, does not impair your vision in anyway, and you may choose to have the light manifest as though created by any kind of mundane light source (ie, candle, torch, lantern, etc), so long as you do not exceed the limitations of the spell light. At 6th level, you may mimic the effects of the Daylight spell in the same way. Your skin is considered light-proof for the purposes of covering your own light effects (ie, you can use this ability on your eyes, and then close your eyes to hide the light).

Triaj's Sight [Divine]
You know who's alive, who's dead, and who's close to dead.
Benefit: You may mimic the effects of Deathwatch at will. This is not evil in any way.

These abilities are not in any way worth a feat. The second one is just a wasted feat slot, the first will get you killed for the privilege of wasting a feat.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Holy crap, some feedback.

Ok, good point on Su abilities ignoring SR. I can keep that in mind to use as a way to bump up some spells in power, even if only a little. I'm tempted to take out the blanket "These are all supernatural" statement and go case by case, since saying "this is identical to casting the spell," "this is spell-like," "this is supernatural," and "this is extraordinary" are discrete levels of power and I can use that scale to fine tune some things.

Is Hot Headed better or worse than An Ice Personality? Ie is burning hands better than chill touch, do people care about heat metal more than chill metal?

That specific use of Telekinesis is... not something I ever thought about. Can I adjust the weight limits such that it's not completely crazy go nuts as a feat?

This Little Light Of Mine- am I correct in my judgement that the basic effect (you basically have a permanent Light spell active) could be fine as a Trait? If so, I figure I could salvage that feat with better [Light] spells.

I'm considering rolling Triaj's Sight into Healing and Hurting Hands. Or maybe just Healing Hands and giving Hurting Hands Death Knell?
_________________
Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 11970

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: [WIP][Tome-ish]Mages With Style Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Prak wrote:
This Little Light Of Mine- am I correct in my judgement that the basic effect (you basically have a permanent Light spell active) could be fine as a Trait? If so, I figure I could salvage that feat with better [Light] spells.


Hicks is just feeling particularly bitter because he broke the first rule of dungeoneering, and he brought a light source and the monsters knew he was coming and readied partial charges to murder him in the surprise round.

But his point is correct, permanent light is not worth a feat in any circumstance. It's a detriment most of the time, and when it isn't, it costs 110gp if you are really strapped for weight limit, or 1gp if you aren't.

Hicks wrote:
because you are throwing at least 5lbs of Alchemist Fire for 5 touch attacks out to 650', which stacks with Power Attack (touch attacks) and Point Blank Shot (First and only range increment), and Blitz (Provoke an AoO while 600+ feet away from anybody who can stop you),


While I'm with you 100% on the difference between at will Telekinesis and at will Chill Metal, your theory that people are ever going to make Violent Thrust Power Attack Point Blank Shot Blitzed Acid Flask Attacks is still entirely your fault.

Quite aside from the fact that aside from you personally, every single person will, without even hearing the rules at all, tell you that you absolutely can't do any of those things at all, two of the three are illegal by strict RAW:

Power Attack: "Requirement: You must make an attack action and have a BAB of at least +1."

Point Blank Shot: "You add your base attack bonus to damage with any ranged attack within the first range increment."

Casting the telekinesis spell is not an attack action, nor does it give you 50 attack actions to fire at people.

If something doesn't have a range increment, then that doesn't mean that all it's attacks are in the first range increment, it means they don't have a range increment, and can't be in the first one.

I don't know if Blitz is RAW legal for your alchemist fire storm, but I also don't care. Blitz: "You may go all out when attacking, adding your Base Attack Bonus to your damage, but provoking an Attack of Opportunity."

I don't know whether that means when making an attack roll or when making an attack action, but neither do you. I don't know if casting the Telekinesis spell counts as you attacking for the purpose of Blitz or not, and neither do you.

Telekinesis can do super absurd alpha strikes without deliberately misreading the rules to get more damage.
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Hicks
Duke


Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Blytheville, AR

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hey Kaelik, you're mostly right, but the fact of the matter is that the barbarian is no longer making 1 attack or 2 with TWF a standard action and is getting 5 attacks out to 650' at level 5 with this feat, plus an additional attack every level thereafter till level 15. I mean there is no real way to fiddle with weight limits that will not make this feat real ultimate power, although reducing the range to Short (25'+5'/2lvls) might help. The "classic" tome way of getting telekinesis at will with is with a full BAB class 4 + Native of the Silver Sky 5, level 9. The [Tome] Mage gives it at level 9, The absolute earliest I've ever seen it was at level 7 of Force Potente. the problem at most levels is the long range and extra attack rolls, but even if you do the basic thing and reduce the range to Short, which would at least threaten a counter-charge to the telekinesis spam, I would rather it be from a class ability and not a feat. If you have at will telekinesis on your character sheet, be it from a class ability or the bad-ass major magical item, which should only even exist in double digit level land, it defines your character and monopolizes your actions; normally characters have to trade HD, BAB, Saves, and Skills, basically taking the worse of every metric their character could be judged by to get it at will.

We can compare and contrast this with your Great Ball's of Fire
Quote:
Great Balls of Fire [Arcane, Divine]
You can conjure orbs of fire in your hand, and then throw them at people.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can conjure a number of orbs of flame equal to the number of attack actions you can take (including two weapon fighting and such), which appear in you hands and floating around you. You may then make a melee or ranged touch attack to hit someone with an orb of flame, dealing a number of d4s, plus 1/2 casting mod, of fire damage equal to the highest level of spells you can cast. Each attack you make expends an orb of fire. Orbs remain until they are used, or until end of combat, and shed light as a torch. If conjured outside of an encounter, orbs exist essentially indefinitely (as they can be renewed as a swift action).

So first off this feat's range is undefined, and that needs to be fixed. Second off is that the Human Monk or whatever just spent 2 feats to get 1 Ranged Touch attack to deal, as written, 0d4+2? fire damage at level 1, assuming a starting wisdom of 18, and at level 5 (comparing it to the telekinesis feat) it raises to 2 ranged touch attacks w/ TWF for 0d4+2? because even with an item and +level to wisdom she's still rocking ~21 /+5, which is then halved, and rounded down to +2 because that is D+D math; the Beguiler gets 2d4+2 and the Cleric/Druid/Wizard gets 3d4+2... and that last one might be on par with magic missile, because you could get 2 Ranged Touch attacks, but falls behind scorching ray.

Now let's talk about the elephant in the room:
Quote:
Liminal Being
Though not actually a caster, you straddle the line between the worlds mundane and magical. It's kind of uncomfortable.
Benefit: Choose one of Knowledge (Arcane), Knowledge (Divine) or Knowledge (The Planes). That skill, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device are always class skills for you. If you chose Knowledge (Arcane), you may take [Arcane] feats as if you were a wizard or sorcerer (your choice, determines ability score spell-mimicking abilities care about) of your character level. If you chose Knowledge (Divine), you may take [Divine] feats as if you were a cleric or druid of your character level (feats which allow you to mimic spells use your Wis mod). If you chose Knowledge (the Planes), you may choose one of [Fiendish], [Celestial] or [Elemental] feats to take as an appropriate creature.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, choosing a different Knowledge each time. You may choose Knowledge (the Planes) three times, choosing a different category of feats to be able to take each time. Neither of these options are particularly recommended, but you can.


So firstly there is no Knowledge (Divine), there is Knowledge (Religion); and secondly what does this feat actually accomplish? Spend a feat to get 3 (admittedly good) skills as class skills. Who cares? How will this help you win fights at 1st and 2nd level? Why have this at all? all you're saying is that everybody except humans can't interact with your "I'm a Caster Too" feats until at least 3ed level, and you give them basically nothing to survive the first two levels to get there. To reiterate: adding 3 good skills as "always class skills" is the Apprentice background, and doesn't have a feat tax because everybody hates feat taxes.

As an alternate idea instead of this feat, don't have this feat. Let [Divine] feats grant a +1 synergy bonus to Knowledge (Religion), while [Arcane] and [Plane] feats get that synergy bonus to Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Planes), and boost the feats (with the exception of the telekinesis one) to be useful.

And as a litmus test to see if your "I'm a Caster Too" feats are useful, use the following metric: would I spend an actual Standard Action (because some of these are attack actions or whatever) in life or death combat to use this feat? And as it stands, I wouldn't use any of them except for the telekinesis one, but even though I would gladly spend TWO (2!) ACTUAL TOME FEATS (ya know, the good ones?) it is still overpowered and underpriced.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hicks wrote:
Hey Kaelik, you're mostly right, but the fact of the matter is that the barbarian is no longer making 1 attack or 2 with TWF a standard action and is getting 5 attacks out to 650' at level 5 with this feat, plus an additional attack every level thereafter till level 15. I mean there is no real way to fiddle with weight limits that will not make this feat real ultimate power, although reducing the range to Short (25'+5'/2lvls) might help. The "classic" tome way of getting telekinesis at will with is with a full BAB class 4 + Native of the Silver Sky 5, level 9. The [Tome] Mage gives it at level 9, The absolute earliest I've ever seen it was at level 7 of Force Potente. the problem at most levels is the long range and extra attack rolls, but even if you do the basic thing and reduce the range to Short, which would at least threaten a counter-charge to the telekinesis spam, I would rather it be from a class ability and not a feat. If you have at will telekinesis on your character sheet, be it from a class ability or the bad-ass major magical item, which should only even exist in double digit level land, it defines your character and monopolizes your actions; normally characters have to trade HD, BAB, Saves, and Skills, basically taking the worse of every metric their character could be judged by to get it at will.

Actually... no. The barbarian's not taking Obiken's Mystical Hand. I know we're supposed to balance to actual, like, theoretical optimization, but I'm going to go with my data, however anecdotal, that says no one who's playing a barbarian, except for a few people here who care more about character power than organic characters, or characters that make any kind of sense, is going to take the telekinesis power. And I can say this with certainty because I have a friend who is shit at making characters in a narrative/organic sense, and one of the best optimizers I know, and he'd never take Obiken's Mystical Hand on a barbarian. It doesn't synergize with being a barbarian at all, and anyone who wanted their character to throw around people with telekinesis started their character as a telekinetic, not a barbarian who happens to be able to use the Force.

Now, whether the feat is too powerful is another topic, and I'll grant that it is. I'm thinking about tweaking uses per day and removing the "25 lbs/CL" weight thing and just saying "as if you had Str equal to your character level."

Quote:
We can compare and contrast this with your Great Ball's of Fire
Quote:
Great Balls of Fire [Arcane, Divine]
You can conjure orbs of fire in your hand, and then throw them at people.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can conjure a number of orbs of flame equal to the number of attack actions you can take (including two weapon fighting and such), which appear in you hands and floating around you. You may then make a melee or ranged touch attack to hit someone with an orb of flame, dealing a number of d4s, plus 1/2 casting mod, of fire damage equal to the highest level of spells you can cast. Each attack you make expends an orb of fire. Orbs remain until they are used, or until end of combat, and shed light as a torch. If conjured outside of an encounter, orbs exist essentially indefinitely (as they can be renewed as a swift action).

So first off this feat's range is undefined, and that needs to be fixed. Second off is that the Human Monk or whatever just spent 2 feats to get 1 Ranged Touch attack to deal, as written, 0d4+2? fire damage at level 1, assuming a starting wisdom of 18, and at level 5 (comparing it to the telekinesis feat) it raises to 2 ranged touch attacks w/ TWF for 0d4+2? because even with an item and +level to wisdom she's still rocking ~21 /+5, which is then halved, and rounded down to +2 because that is D+D math; the Beguiler gets 2d4+2 and the Cleric/Druid/Wizard gets 3d4+2... and that last one might be on par with magic missile, because you could get 2 Ranged Touch attacks, but falls behind scorching ray.


The intent, though I admit I spaced on making it explicit, is that when you take Liminal Being you're considered a Full Caster of your character level, and checks for highest spell level you can cast make a function call to that. So if the Monk is fifth level and has taken Liminal Being choosing to act as a wizard, and Great Balls of Fire, he has 3d4 fire orbs.

Again, I need to make that explicit, and I'm considering the point that these shouldn't make function calls to highest spell level because that makes the power level differ too much between different classes while encouraging partial casters to waste a feat on Liminal Being as a tax for these feats being full power.

Quote:
Now let's talk about the elephant in the room:
Quote:
Liminal Being
Though not actually a caster, you straddle the line between the worlds mundane and magical. It's kind of uncomfortable.
Benefit: Choose one of Knowledge (Arcane), Knowledge (Divine) or Knowledge (The Planes). That skill, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device are always class skills for you. If you chose Knowledge (Arcane), you may take [Arcane] feats as if you were a wizard or sorcerer (your choice, determines ability score spell-mimicking abilities care about) of your character level. If you chose Knowledge (Divine), you may take [Divine] feats as if you were a cleric or druid of your character level (feats which allow you to mimic spells use your Wis mod). If you chose Knowledge (the Planes), you may choose one of [Fiendish], [Celestial] or [Elemental] feats to take as an appropriate creature.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, choosing a different Knowledge each time. You may choose Knowledge (the Planes) three times, choosing a different category of feats to be able to take each time. Neither of these options are particularly recommended, but you can.


So firstly there is no Knowledge (Divine), there is Knowledge (Religion); and secondly what does this feat actually accomplish? Spend a feat to get 3 (admittedly good) skills as class skills. Who cares? How will this help you win fights at 1st and 2nd level? Why have this at all? all you're saying is that everybody except humans can't interact with your "I'm a Caster Too" feats until at least 3ed level, and you give them basically nothing to survive the first two levels to get there. To reiterate: adding 3 good skills as "always class skills" is the Apprentice background, and doesn't have a feat tax because everybody hates feat taxes.

So, firstly, I should say that these are Tome-Ish, because they're angled more at Frank's later understanding that people want lots of little feats, rather than a few big feats like scaling feats. I don't know what the current theoretical power level for those "lots of little feats" is, if you happen to have seen some speculation on that, I'd be interested in a link. Secondly, on Knowledge (Divine)- Oops. I'm pretty sure I was writing that after getting off work, my mind wasn't entirely there. It's fixed.

Then, on Liminal Being giving an actual ability- Ok, that's a good point. The feat is staying, but I do need to think of an actual ability to put on it. I need to reformat these overall, so maybe I'll reformat this into sections and have a few minor abilities selectable from a list based on which Kn. skill you choose.

Quote:
As an alternate idea instead of this feat, don't have this feat. Let [Divine] feats grant a +1 synergy bonus to Knowledge (Religion), while [Arcane] and [Plane] feats get that synergy bonus to Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Planes), and boost the feats (with the exception of the telekinesis one) to be useful.

This feat exists as the [Arcane] equivalent of Product of Infernal Dalliance, just not as crazy powerful (though handing out a meaningful subtype is an thought for the real effect...). It's how you get these feats without being a full caster. Admittedly, it needs to do something more than give three class skills and get you in the door.

Quote:
And as a litmus test to see if your "I'm a Caster Too" feats are useful, use the following metric: would I spend an actual Standard Action (because some of these are attack actions or whatever) in life or death combat to use this feat? And as it stands, I wouldn't use any of them except for the telekinesis one, but even though I would gladly spend TWO (2!) ACTUAL TOME FEATS (ya know, the good ones?) it is still overpowered and underpriced.

Again, these aren't meant to be on par with scaling feats, but your point is taken. Especially since that means Obiken's Mystical Hand is even more overpowered.
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Hicks
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Look, the Barbarian thing is only to show how supernatural abilities interact with edge cases, and getting 5 ranged touch attacks out to 650' covers the barbarians ass when he has to make a ranged attack while in a rage but isn't allowed to use his hands, which are filled with weapons and shield. In point of fact the feat build in the current game is: anything 1st, anything 1st for human, Liminal Being 3ed, Obiken's Mystical Hand [Arcane] 6th. In the "Every Level is a Feat" it's: 1, 1h, 2, 3, Liminal Being 4, Obiken's Mystical Hand [Arcane] 5.

Fiddling with weight restrictions is not gonna make that feat balanced. AT WORST under the new LVL= STR nerf a 5th level user can lift 16 pounds, which is 9 lbs more than what is need for 5 alchemist flasks ranged touch attacks out to 650'. It is actually more unbalanced with "small feats" because anything that gives access to the spell telekinesis is not small, it's TEXA$ ALA$KA HUEG. Compare this to the Rogue, who gets 2, maaaybe 3 ranged touch attacks with flasks with sneak attack out to 30' (with rapid shot at a net -6 attack) at best (TWF, PBS, Rapid Shot?) for [(4d6+2 GMW) + 1d6 next round] x 3, if they even get sneak attack; if they don't then it drops to [(1d6+2 GMW) + 1d6 next round] x3

Compared to Strength 5 telekinesis: [(1d6+2 GMW) + 1d6 next round] x5. You are at "parity" for any Rogue's at best sneak attack full attack (10d6+10 TK vs 13d6+6 SA or an average of 45 vs 51.5), but Get a net +6 attack over the Rogue because TK has no range increment, have a 2,166.66% range advantage over a flask rogue, are not susceptible to counter charges or even arrows at that distance, can do that without any set up for a sneak attack, and did that all as a standard action.

So is it worth 2 feats to do ~45 damage and erase 1 mob at level 5?
At will? FUCK YES. YES EVEN HARDER IF THIS IS A "SMALL FEAT." X/Day? Maybe, but YES EVEN HARDER IF THIS IS A "SMALL FEAT." You just basically wrote: and at 5 HD, every creature capable of taking feats can cast telekinesis X/day. Even if you did the "sensible thing" and nerfed the range down to 25'+5'/2lvls, it's still: Every creature can cast telekinesis x/day and alpha strike a fool for somewhere between 33~45 damage. At 5th level, it is just flat out better than a meta-magiced scorching ray (6d6 empowered for ~21 damage on a ranged touch vs. 5d6+5d6 next round for ~35 with no fuckery from me, just the feat). but then again telekinesis should totally trounce a 2nd level spell, because it is a better spell that comes available later in the game.

It's a 5th level spell. Don't give access to that when all anybody else has are 3ed level spells.

Let me reiterate: there is no level that it would be appropriate to have access to telekinesis with a feat. I mean, even in Core you need the Craft Ring feat at level 12 and then set all your money on fire and spend 38 days in downtime get a ring of telekinesis at will, which will still be shut down by dispel magic and other shit all the time because it's only CL 9. At will spells that you would get access to at CL 9 have no business being at CL 5; the reason why they are higher level is that they are better. Any time you write a feat that says: telekinesis x/whatever, you just basically wrote that onto every player's character sheet and every monster's statistics block in any game that would allow that feat.
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shadzar wrote:
those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Now let's talk about Product of Infernal Dalliance and Liminal Being

PoID leads to the absolutely boss feats Greater Teleport [Monstrous] and Wings of Evil [Fiend]. PoID also lets you live at first level by granting a few extra natural attacks, and a subtypes that gives Telepathy, some immunities, and a few resistances; the Baatezu stands out as the totally boss See in Darkness (Su). None of which exists in the Hypertext d20 SRD, probably nerfed out of existence, or maybe it was closed content all along?

The more I'm looking at this, the more this looks like 3 feats

    Arcane: +1/3 Resistance to saves, Caster Level = Character Level, Knowledge (Arcana) is a class skill and you get a +3 bonus to it.
    Divine: +1/3 Deflection to AC, Caster Level = Character Level. Knowledge (Religion) is a class skill and you get a +3 bonus to it.
    Planes: +1/3 Enhancement Natural Armor, Caster Level = Character Level. Knowledge (Planes) is a class skill and you get a +3 bonus to it.


And that is pretty basic and a minimum for what I'd accept for a "Small" feat. A free minor magical item bonus, a skill, and a bonus to that skill. If you want them to be a little better, and who wouldn't, we'd give them an ability:

    Arcane: silent image 1/day probably greater magic weapon 1/day
    Divine: May either Turn or Rebuke Undead, chosen when this feat is taken, 1/day and your level for the purposes of Turning is always considered to be at minimum your CR.
    Planes: DR/Level (choose one alignment: evil, chaos, good, law), BONUS ABILITY: you can select [Fiend]/[Celestial]/[Monstrous]/[Elemental] feats later in life


So the reasoning behind the rebuke undead (specifically) is that it gives you access to pets (skeletons and zombies) you may find in the course of your adventure, or stop the party from getting raped from being locked in a box with 3 skeletons. As for Arcane and Planes? Choose a 1st level ability that says fits those themes. The Arcane one could be silent image or greater magic weapon 1/day but not burning hands x/day. The first has a duration of concentration so it would still be pretty boss for a single encounter and the player will feel like he's contributing for longer; the second will allow the party to not die to shadows and will pierce DR/X Magic for a hour or more; the third won't do 1d4 damage, will fail to kill anything even if they fail their saves, totally exposes you to a counter attack because of its bullshit small range, and is over in 1 standard action.

At this time I got nothing for the#planes one, but you're a creative person, I'm sure you'll think of something. Oh I had an Idea, it's up above
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shadzar wrote:
those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.

Lokathor wrote:
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hicks wrote:
None of which exists in the Hypertext d20 SRD, probably nerfed out of existence, or maybe it was closed content all along?


Baatezu is the special not open gaming content name for Devils. You will notice the Baatezu Subtype is literally identical in what it conveys to what all Devils get for being Devils under the Devil entry.

The more I'm looking at this, the more this looks like 3 feats

Hicks wrote:
And that is pretty basic and a minimum for what I'd accept for a "Small" feat. A free minor magical item bonus, a skill, and a bonus to that skill. If you want them to be a little better, and who wouldn't, we'd give them an ability:


Then you are fucking insane. If the minimum you are willing to accept from a level 9 character is 9 fucking items, 9 more bonuses on top of those items, and maybe nine more abilities on top of that, and then also 9 levels of class features and whatever magic items you have, then you are insane.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Prak, while you still have to work on the mechanics, thematically it's a good start. Keep at it.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So the current Zeitgeist of the Den is "Small Feats," and the balance point for those is anything that came before Races of War. My balance point for Liminal Whatever was: Is it weaker than product of Infernal Dalliance? Which came out before Races of War. I mean, we're talking about a bunch of +bonuses that don't stack and are eventually overridden by your lesser magical items. OMG! YOU COULD TOTALLY CHOOSE +BONUSES THAT AREN'T GIVEN BY MAGIC YOU HAVE SO YOU CAN GET MORE +BONUSES! Oh, wait, nobody cares because all of these classes have been handing out bonuses and abilities in excess of the 8 item limit for nearly 7 years, and have you heard about Weapon of Righteous Destruction [Combat]?

Seriously, we're talking about +3 to a skill and a +bonus. We're not handing out bonus skill points, and even if there were feats to grant every minor bonus, which there are not currently but there could be, nobody cares if you get your +STR from gauntlets of climbing +5 or your Mighty Thews (+STR Enhancement, +3 Jump, get jump as a class skill) feat; one of them can get dispelled, and the other can't be taken away, but then again you paid an actual feat for it. Players will probably get something that adds to their class Ability score so they can be assured that they get the bonuses they depend on to work those class abilities and then pick up other baller feats like Zen Archery or Elusive Target or Body Assemblage or whatever.
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shadzar wrote:
those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.

Lokathor wrote:
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Prak
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Product of Internal Dalliance is crazy go nuts, and basically the Tome equivalent of chocolate- there really isn't anything that the right version of it won't go with. While I want Liminal Being to fulfill the same function (you can take this new category of feats), it shouldn't be that powerful
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's fair, but hopefully I've given you some food for thought on where you want Liminal Being to go. I will admit that I do not like the new paradigm of small feats, and I'm having some trouble adjusting down to them from how I've been gaming for 8 years.
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shadzar wrote:
those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.

Lokathor wrote:
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hicks wrote:
So the current Zeitgeist of the Den is "Small Feats," and the balance point for those is anything that came before Races of War. My balance point for Liminal Whatever was: Is it weaker than product of Infernal Dalliance? Which came out before Races of War. I mean, we're talking about a bunch of +bonuses that don't stack and are eventually overridden by your lesser magical items. OMG! YOU COULD TOTALLY CHOOSE +BONUSES THAT AREN'T GIVEN BY MAGIC YOU HAVE SO YOU CAN GET MORE +BONUSES! Oh, wait, nobody cares because all of these classes have been handing out bonuses and abilities in excess of the 8 item limit for nearly 7 years, and have you heard about Weapon of Righteous Destruction [Combat]?

Seriously, we're talking about +3 to a skill and a +bonus. We're not handing out bonus skill points, and even if there were feats to grant every minor bonus, which there are not currently but there could be, nobody cares if you get your +STR from gauntlets of climbing +5 or your Mighty Thews (+STR Enhancement, +3 Jump, get jump as a class skill) feat; one of them can get dispelled, and the other can't be taken away, but then again you paid an actual feat for it. Players will probably get something that adds to their class Ability score so they can be assured that they get the bonuses they depend on to work those class abilities and then pick up other baller feats like Zen Archery or Elusive Target or Body Assemblage or whatever.


Everything you say is absolutely insanely dumb on every level. Allow me to quantify the ways that you are full of shit:

1) The current zeitgeist is feats that came out before the Tomes. Pretending the Tome of fucking Fiends feats are balanced at the same level as 3.5 feats is basically just lying.
2) Infernal Dalliance is not just the most powerful Tome of Fiends feat by a wide margin, it's actually so much more powerful that it is better than 90% of Races of War feats, you can't possibly say "I'm trying to balance small feats against the 4th most powerful feat ever written." and expect us to take you seriously.
3) THE CURRENT FUCKING ZEITGEIST IS TO GIVE PEOPLE 3 MOTHERFUCKING TIMES AS MANY FEATS. WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO LEARN TO READ THIS PART. YOU GET THREE TIMES AS MANY FEATS. MAYBE HAVING EACH FUCKING FEAT HAVE THREE ABILITIES AND BE BALANCED TO THE MOST POWERFUL FEAT IN THE GAME IS TOO BIG FOR THE SMALL FEATS YOU GET EVERY LEVEL.
4) You don't get bonuses that are overridden by your magical items, you get bonuses to other things and then also more magic items. Half the goddam point of the eight item limit is that giving people more bonus than 8 gets fucking cumbersome, so when your fucking starting point is for people to have 17 bonuses at level 9, you are fucking insane.
5) You are also introducing power now for power later functions, because your 17th bonus is not as good as your first bonus, so taking a feat that gives you a bonus is good, but then makes you worse when you get to a level where you have eight items, because it's only giving you a ninth bonus. Even if you do give total retraining, you are still saying that everyone should retrain all their feats from levels 1-4 by level 9.
6) If a class gives out bonuses (which in the case of lots of them, like those classes, isn't a very good idea) when the class ability becomes extremely negligible, that's not the end of the world, because the class is designed with that in mind.

TL;DR: If your balance the feats you give out every single fucking level against a feat that gives four abilities and is more powerful than all the ones other people are using as a balance point, like fucking Elusive Target (non-Tome) then you are always going to get the wrong fucking answer.

PS. You have the wrong fucking answer.
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JonSetanta
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 5016
Location: interbutts

PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:

1) The current zeitgeist is feats that came out before the Tomes. Pretending the Tome of fucking Fiends feats are balanced at the same level as 3.5 feats is basically just lying.
...
3) THE CURRENT FUCKING ZEITGEIST IS TO GIVE PEOPLE 3 MOTHERFUCKING TIMES AS MANY FEATS. WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO LEARN TO READ THIS PART. YOU GET THREE TIMES AS MANY FEATS. MAYBE HAVING EACH FUCKING FEAT HAVE THREE ABILITIES AND BE BALANCED TO THE MOST POWERFUL FEAT IN THE GAME IS TOO BIG FOR THE SMALL FEATS YOU GET EVERY LEVEL.



1) Agreed.
3) ... hmm. Agreed. After much resistance on my part.

So, we just chop up the powerful feats into smaller and smaller feats, and let players grab what they want until they Voltron the perfect combo... which resembles a Tome feat in power.
We just have to find a way to steer people into selecting the proper combinations, right? No trap options.
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FrankTrollman wrote:
Scaling feats were just a bad idea. I'm sorry I wrote them.
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Prak
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 16036

PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ok, I rewrote Liminal Being. It now gives you the ability to qualify for a kind of feat, a class skill, and a healing ability. Arcane gives you combat healing, but requires two rolls, and the others get out of combat healing.

It's just a first draft, let me know if it's internally balanaced, and whether it's crazy go nuts amazeballs, or acceptable as a small feat. If it's too powerful, can the mechanic be salvaged, or do I need to come up with a new ability entirely?
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Prak
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 16036

PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Reformated An Ice Personality and Friend to All Living Things (which I really do need to tweak the name of), and I found a better advanced spell for An Ice Personality. Again, feedback welcome as I work through the rest.
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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