Naruto...

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Lago_AM3P
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Re: Naruto...

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Goku was a horrendous father.


No kidding. He never spent any time with his wife or even told her on-screen that he loved her, repeatedly exposed his children to dangerous situations, blew off his family to train with kids in third-world nations and as the icing on the ass-shaped cake decided that he'd rather spend his once-in-an-eternity time on Earth fighting in a tournament rather than even saying hello to his wife.

What a goober.
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Re: Naruto...

Post by Ramnza »

Goku died a few times too.
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Re: Naruto...

Post by shirak »

Lago, i think you are overthinking Naruto. Not that I disagree, mind, but the whole point of the social structure is to have OMG TEH AWESOME FIGHTS!!!!!11

Was the stuff about Akatsuki mentioned, I haven't seen the last 3 or 4 episodes but I thought their motives were all mysterious.


On Goku: Yes, he was a horrible father. Chi Chi was a pretty bad mother too, overprotectiveness turned to 11111111111111111111111+++. And as for the lack of love, what love? Chi Chi hunted down Goku and duelled him to the death IIRC. All because he promised to marry her when they were children (I think Chi Chi was in single digit age at the time). I'd say that family was fucked up from the word go. It's a miracle of Writer Ex Machinae that the kids developed into relatively normal people.
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Re: Naruto...

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Was the stuff about Akatsuki mentioned, I haven't seen the last 3 or 4 episodes but I thought their motives were all mysterious.


The anime hasn't caught up to the manga; the Akatsuki mentions the goal of Akatsuki to Hidan and Tobi after the two-tails is captured and sealed. I think it's actually a pretty inspired path. The villain organization wants to go the path of least resistance and murder and would rather hand the villainous nations of the world their economies in a dog dish.


As for the social structure thing...

I realize that it's very hard to depict feudalism in the grip of pre-Industrial Age Mafia-style tactics in a good light. I mean, the ninjas in this setting have a jobs called 'hunter-nin' whose job is to basically kill and mutilate beyond all recognizability the bodies of ninjas deemed traitor. They give this job to 12-year olds.

But's it's something to think about. I liked Godfather and I liked Goodfellas, but having a generation of nerds who fantasize about being these jingoistic murderers and viewing villainous monsters like Kakashi and Sarutobi in a good light cannot be a good thing. Not commenting on this phenomenom seems socially irresponsible.
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Re: Naruto...

Post by shirak »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1183210835[/unixtime]]The anime hasn't caught up to the manga


I should hope not! That was the reason we got a year of fillers! :disgusted:

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1183210835[/unixtime]]As for the social structure thing...

I realize that it's very hard to depict feudalism in the grip of pre-Industrial Age Mafia-style tactics in a good light. I mean, the ninjas in this setting have a jobs called 'hunter-nin' whose job is to basically kill and mutilate beyond all recognizability the bodies of ninjas deemed traitor. They give this job to 12-year olds.

But's it's something to think about. I liked Godfather and I liked Goodfellas, but having a generation of nerds who fantasize about being these jingoistic murderers and viewing villainous monsters like Kakashi and Sarutobi in a good light cannot be a good thing. Not commenting on this phenomenom seems socially irresponsible.


I think they are using D&D morals here. I'm with Terry Pratchett in this one. There is nothing a sadistic and EVIL criminal can do that a normal guy can't do just as well if it's his job. I think the people in the setting suffer from some pretty serious problems (like almost everyone being at least in part a megalomaniac and power-obsessed amoral killer) but they basically follow the Nazi Evil option in the Tome Series. Kakashi may torture a 12-year old girl but he'll treat Naruto to ramen after because torturing people is his job and now he's off.

Then again, I think this makes the setting all the more gray and dehumanizing and I like that shit. YMMV
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Re: Naruto...

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Fucking Mary Sue character destroying the manga.

I thought that we learned our lessons with Eragon and Wesley, but noooooo.

Anyone who has been reading the manga lately knows what I'm talking about. Ugh.
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Re: Naruto...

Post by Maj »

For those of us who aren't reading lately... Please elucidate?
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Re: Naruto...

Post by Captain_Bleach »

shirak at [unixtime wrote:1183216039[/unixtime]]Then again, I think this makes the setting all the more gray and dehumanizing and I like that shit. YMMV


This is because spies, assassins, and ninjas are not known for their upstanding moral character.
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Re: Naruto...

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Maj, just so you know, I'm leaving out some of the sideplot with Jiraiya/Tsunade. I'm also leaving out the sideplot with Tobi/Konoha and the Akatsuki Leader. It's overall not important. Last year and this year is supposed to be mostly Sasuke. Hell, the first chapter for 2008 stated '2008: Year of the Uchiha'.


Next arc starts.

Double-page shot of Sasuke having taken down over a thousand ninja. Orochimaru remarks how amazing it is he hasn't killed anyone. Uh, this sort of pwnage is ridiculous in this universe but whatever.

Sasuke ambushes Orochimaru while he's in bed with plot-induced stupidity; Orochimaru can't move or use ninjutsu at all. He nonetheless manages to get the upper hand and paralyzes Sasuke. But rather than kill him, Sasuke turns Orochimaru's own jutsu against him.

From this battle, Sasuke gains Orochimaru's ultra-regeneration (revealed later) and the Cursed Seal no longer has any side-effects for him. Heck, he can use it to FLY now, making him the only flying character in the manga besides Deidara.

Anyway, after making Kabuto flee like a little bitch, he wanders through Orochimaru's base looking for team members. One of the former workers--Karin--sees him and IMMEDIATELY starts trying to rape him. I am not making this shit up. Keeping the Kishimoto tradition of worthless female protagonists, she has no plot-affecting abilities whatsoever other than 'sensing chakra'. He also adds Juugo and Suigetsu to his team, the former a plot device used to explain the origin of the cursed seal and the latter some loser Mist ninja who has the power to turn into water. Suigetsu also takes Zabuza's sword and wants to win Kisame's.

Anyway, Sasuke assembles this team with him as a leader to keep away anyone who wants to interfere with his fight with Itachi.

They spend a couple of chapters doing nothing but pwning some of Orochimaru's experiments and doing cool poses. Meanwhile, Naruto and friends find out about Orochimaru's death and kick off yet ANOTHER Rescue Sasuke arc, reasoning that Sasuke is going to go after Itachi and they'd better get there first. Team 10 joins them, minus Kurenai because if you don't have a penis then you don't mean anything in this manga.

Sasuke encounters Deidara in the forest who wants to kill him. Deidara's epic motivation? He used to be a terrorist bomber for-hire until the Akatsuki leader found out about him and ordered Itachi to impress him into the organization. He got one-panel pwned by the Sharingan. That's why he's so jealous.

In fact, let's list the powers of the Sharingan so far:

- Can perfectly copy any jutsu that it's seen, adding it to the user's arsenal.
- Sees through genjutsu.
- Tracks fast-moving objects with high clarity.
- Allows user to inflict genjutsu through eye-contact.
- (Mangekyou) Ultimate fire ninjutsu, burns through anything.
- (Tsukiyomi) Ultimate genjutsu, possibly only inferior to Jiraiya's as Jiraiya's can trap multiple targets.
- Can summon and control the Kyuubi.
- Can be used to SEE CHAKRA THAT'S UNDERGROUND.
- Can be used to measure an opponent's chakra.

Speaking of the last two, Sasuke easily owns Deidara the entire fight without even trying, only being put into a pickle twice: one of his wings burns off (and gets replaced later) and gets filled with microscopic bombs. Sasuke disables the bombs by electrocuting himself, which I admit is kind of cool--if it wasn't for the fact that he was using his Sharingan to do an x-ray scan of the ground to find the bombs in the ground (and then disabling them with ELECTRICITY) and also using his Sharingan to track microscopic particles.

Anyway, Deidara is almost out of steam and decides to use ANOTHER suicide blow-up jutsu. For real this time. With less than a second to spare, Sasuke pulls off the most ridiculous escape in the manga: he summons Manda, genjutsus him, crawls into his mouth, and uses the snake's body to shield himself from the blast. Then Suigetsu unsummons Manda. By the way, Sasuke was panting and out of chakra. To highlight this stupidity, Sasuke says that he had yet ANOTHER escape no jutsu up his sleeve if that didn't work.

By the way, Sasuke stops at a village full of ninja cats for a Chekov's Gun. Don't ask.

Anyway, Naruto and friends are catching up with Sasuke. Sasuke chidoris a couple of Naruto bunshin and easily pwns a Itachi bunshin that Naruto couldn't do anything against. Anyway, Itachi wants Sasuke to come with him to the Uchiha hideout to finish things and has Kisame stand guard. That's right, Sasuke's new team was utterly worthless. By the way, the mangaka confirms Team Hebi's loser status in an interview--he wasn't planning on giving them any fights until the editors of Shonen Jump made him. Such authoral integrity!

So Itachi and Sasuke share some backstory. We find out these things:

Itachi didn't perform the Uchiha massacre by himself. In fact, he was a sidekick to Uchiha Madara the whole time.

By the way, Uchiha Madara, the founder of the Konoha clan is alive after 100 years. Back before the creation of the major shinobi nation, the clans of Konoha were scattered. The Uchiha clans enslaved most of the clans they came against after pwning them. And here's the dark secret of the Uchiha clan:

To gain the Mangekyou Sharingan (an evolution of Sharingan), you need to kill your best friend. However, MS causes blindness. To prevent this blindness, you need to take the eyes of your brother which causes ANOTHER Sharingan evolution. That's why Itachi kept Sasuke alive. Why Itachi didn't take Sasuke's eyes before he was strong enough to challenge him is up for debate, but the general consensus is PIS. Regardless, Itachi is going blind from using Mangekyou Sharingan and wants to harvest his brother's eyes before he goes completely.

In a massive lulz-inducing moment, Itachi calls his mentor a complete failure because he got his ass kicked by the Shodai and crippled by Yondaime. Itachi wants to kill Sasuke and surpass Uchiha Madara and take control of the Uchiha clan... even though he killed all of them. Itachi makes a Light Yagami face and he and Sasuke fight.

... or not. Here's how the 'fight' progresses.

There's an exchange of taijutsu and chidori variants. And genjutsu. For four chapters. After the fourth one, we realize that none of the exchange was for real, they were just facing each other in an EPIC STARING CONTEST using Sharingan. By the way, Zetsu rolls on in and observes from the shadows. His sole purpose is to explain to the reader what's going on by talking to himself. That's right, Kishimoto had degraded his most mysterious villain to that of a narrator for a poorly-drawn Hanna Barbera cartoon. Though I would like to note that the art quality massively improves for this fight. Gee, I wonder why.

Anyway, Sasuke is immune to this EPIC STARING CONTEST so Itachi is all 'fuck it' and decides to inflict an old-school beatdown on Sasuke. He pins him to the wall, and prepares to pluck out Sasuke's left eye--

--then it's revealed that it was Tsukiyomi genjutsu. Sasuke breaks out of it. When asked how he did it, Sasuke replies (THIS IS NO SHIT) 'I broke out of it with my HATRED'.

By the way, Itachi's vision is going MUCH worse after this move and is clutching his eye in pain. There's a katon enchange, which Sasuke flat out wins, and Sasuke actually hits his brother with a shuriken. Making Itachi the first character to get hit with one since the first chapter.

Anyway, Itachi is like 'fuck this' and goes for Ameratsu. That's right, he's using the ultimate fire genjutsu (flames that last for seven days that burn as hot as the sun) on someone he wants to harvest bodyparts from. Yeah, sure.

Sasuke's epic escape from it? ... he uses a variant of kawarimi no jutsu, Orochimaru-style. That's right, the first jutsu from the beginning of the manga. Since Itachi is going as blind as a bat he doesn't notice this until he cancels the jutsu from lack of chakra. By now he's bleeding from the mouth and eye.

Sasuke then uses some more dragon-flame shaped katons on his brother, which Itachi barely handles. The surroundings get blown to hell and there's a storm outside. Itachi comments on Sasuke's lack of chakra. Sasuke then states that it's time for his ultimate ninjutsu.

That's right, Sasuke is going to use his strongest attack seen so far when he's out of chakra. Itachi, meanwhile, is blind to the point where one of his eyes devolved to the regular Sharingan, out of energy and chakra, with all of his strongest moves having failed. He's gained no strength whatsoever since his first appearance, where he effortlessly owned three jonin.

At no time during this fight did Itachi gain the upper hand on Sasuke nor did he show any moves other than some standard hand-to-hand moves, Sharingan genjutsu, low-ranked katons, and Ameratsu/Tsukiyomi.

Epic failure. Kishimoto's worship for his angsty pretty-boy has completely wrecked the manga.
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Re: Naruto...

Post by Lago_AM3P »

This is because spies, assassins, and ninjas are not known for their upstanding moral character.


But the series is aimed at children/preteens and stars children/preteens.

That kind of stuff is okay for, say, Battle Royale and Berserk. But unless you can convince me that The Shield is appropriate viewing for elementary and junior-high kids then we're just going to have to ask 'What the hell, mangaka'?
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Re: Naruto...

Post by Koumei »

I can't believe I read all that SBlocked stuff. That was shit.

I'm so glad I never read the manga, and only watched the dubbed anime in the mornings a year ago for a few weeks, out of boredom.
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Re: Naruto...

Post by Maj »

Thanx, Lago! That was awesome!

:lmao:

Lago wrote:But the series is aimed at children/preteens and stars children/preteens.


Have you seen the utter garbage that passes for acceptable TV for children? I'm not planning on letting my kids watch half of it. Naruto, while having less than perfect ethics, at least has passable animation.

Koumei wrote:and only watched the dubbed anime in the mornings a year ago for a few weeks, out of boredom.


That dubbing makes the show so much worse. I at least didn't vitriolicly scream at the TV while watching the subtitled episodes.

Not that I'm saying you should watch it, just that you exposed yourself to even worse TV than you had to.

;)
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Re: Naruto...

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

If I were to decide to have kids (That's a pretty big if right there), I am fairly certain I wouldn't have to worry about current children's programming, what with my DVD collection consisting by half or more of cartoons I watched years ago.

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Re: Naruto...

Post by Koumei »

If I had kids, I'd mandate that they all watch The Sooty Show. No exceptions.
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Re: Naruto...

Post by PhoneLobster »

Er. Wasn't Sooty a bit of a prick?
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Re: Naruto...

Post by Koumei »

And your point is?

Sooty is awesome. Nothing will ever change that.
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Re: Naruto...

Post by JonSetanta »

Never seen Sooty until just now when I googled it (at your mention)

For a belated response to Lago, I agree about the Mary Sue ruining the Naruto manga. Or at least, not quite sure which; Tobi, Itachi, or the "I don't have a name" little dork with the belly shirt?

That suspiciously gay Aspergers drawing kid was just a tip of the sugarfrosted sappiness that pervades the Naruto manga.
And it all began when two of the main male characters lock lips within the first few chapters of the whole series...
Some of the fights are interesting, but certain moments are... just....

Well.
Ya know, Anon was right.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Frank Trollman has been dropping Naruto references into his posts lately, so I'd thought I would bump this thread.


Something you'd like to tell us, Frank?

(By the way, the prediction of Naruto taking on the elements of Dragonball Z is totally spot on.)
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In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Maxus »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
(By the way, the prediction of Naruto taking on the elements of Dragonball Z is totally spot on.)
Seriously. They may not have reached the point of blowing up planets, but there's been a definite power creep throughout the series.

Thus far:

1) Big outpost/fortress has been blown to bits.

2) An antagonist has shown himself capable of turning a good chunk of a city into a crater (although it apparently shortens his lifespan when he does this. Whatever.)

3) Various other characters have shown themselves capable of potentially landscape-altering attacks.

But, you know, despite the power creep...I still like the series. The variety of shticks/strategies characters employ is more interesting to me than Dragonball Z ever was. That, and it's got better characters and a lot more room for humor.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

But, you know, despite the power creep...I still like the series. The variety of shticks/strategies characters employ is more interesting to me than Dragonball Z ever was. That, and it's got better characters and a lot more room for humor.
That's what I'm getting at. Dragonball prior to the Saiyan saga was like a completely different manga and had completely different themes.

The things that you like about Naruto, whether you'd like to admit it or not, are slowly starting to spiral down the drain.

Those characters you liked? Those strategies that kept you interested? Completely fucking unimportant; it's all going to come down to a Naruto/Sasuke wankfest.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Maxus »

In which case, I'll keep up my attention on the series for much the same reasons as I finished reading the Harry Potter books: It's been a good ride, and I want to see how things turn out.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

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Post by TOZ »

I was going to say at least I have Bleach, but it really has devolved completely. I'm almost afraid to go read the manga from what I've seen of the anime.
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Post by Cynic »

God damn it, Lago, I stopped reading this around chapter 230 because I jsut didn't want to keep up with it. I wasted my own time reading this thread and getting vaguely interested in the series again. From the looks of it, the manga seems to have doubled and too much of the anime to watch. I'll probably read the manga though...

BTW: none of this is your fault but all mine for reading a long and arbitrarily old topic. But isn't it human nature to blame other people for your own foibles? B
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