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FatR
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Post by FatR »

OgreBattle wrote:A few pages in Holden deflects attention to saying exalted is more balanced than DnD3e and more flexible than dnd 4e all proud like
But that's a fucking lie.

Sure, the Den and half the web loves to harp about 3E's abuses and breakages, but in 3E, at least in a part of its level range, you could play characters with vastly different archetypes, abilities, and methods, and have a relatively level playground. Exalted, no matter the edition, is the realm of One Build to Rule Them All.
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Post by FatR »

Schleiermacher wrote: That's coming on a bit strong, surely. Minton and Sheppard both seem like good guys, even though you couldn't pay me to play their game.
IMO, the only decent person there was McFarland. And even then possibly emphasis should be on "was". I haven't read rpg.net for years, and people change.

I remember that Sheppard defended motherfucking Dreams of the First Age (the Exalted's equivalent of Epic Level Handbook, except somehow worse, for those unfamiliar) stalwartly, and then, when late in 2Es' life the party line had changed, because they made a de-facto 2.5 edition, suddenly changed his position 180.

That said, the crowd over there did not took Holden's words in the thread above well at all. The moderation will need to ban half the forum to calm that shitstorm down.
Last edited by FatR on Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Longes
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Post by Longes »

ishy
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Post by ishy »

OgreBattle wrote:A few pages in Holden deflects attention to saying exalted is more balanced than DnD3e and more flexible than dnd 4e all proud like
Well that depends on what you find balanced. I mean:
[url=https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e&p=19549241#post19549241 wrote:Holden[/url]]
Alderman wrote:So a thing that I'm curious about:
One of my players just spent half his bonus points on knowing like six languages. Another spent them on ability dots. Who got the better deal, and should this have been possible (in your opinion)?
That rather depends on a) how much use that player will get out of being a polyglot and b) how much joy that player derives out of pretending to be a polyglot for six hours a week.

Math says Ability Guy came out better, since you can't squeeze Charms out of Language merit dots. But math doesn't account for "I'm playing my dude, yay," which is the only currency that I think really matters.
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
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Longes
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Post by Longes »

ishy wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:A few pages in Holden deflects attention to saying exalted is more balanced than DnD3e and more flexible than dnd 4e all proud like
Well that depends on what you find balanced. I mean:
[url=https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?768985-Exalted-Why-is-Everyone-Praising-3e&p=19549241#post19549241 wrote:Holden[/url]]
Alderman wrote:So a thing that I'm curious about:
One of my players just spent half his bonus points on knowing like six languages. Another spent them on ability dots. Who got the better deal, and should this have been possible (in your opinion)?
That rather depends on a) how much use that player will get out of being a polyglot and b) how much joy that player derives out of pretending to be a polyglot for six hours a week.

Math says Ability Guy came out better, since you can't squeeze Charms out of Language merit dots. But math doesn't account for "I'm playing my dude, yay," which is the only currency that I think really matters.
Which is a stupid argument that has nothing to do with anything. In a one-shot the problem of xp/bp discrepancy doesn't exist because you never get any xp. In a campaign Bob the Linguist bought Linguistics 1 and six languages and is buying up to Linguistics 5, while Steve Optimal bough Linguistics 5. Two sessions later Steve will have Linguistics 5 and six languages while Bob is just getting to Linguistics 3. That's the problem with xp/bp divide. That as xp trickles in the divide between optimal character and suboptimal character grows greater as the optimal character buys everything the suboptimal character had and starts buying extras.
Mechalich
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Post by Mechalich »

Linguistics is a particularly dumb example because translation barriers are almost impossible to utilize at a gaming table in a way that's actually conductive to fun. Having a character know a language is actually one of the least valuable things you can buy because no GM who's not a complete asshole is going to stick a party in a situation where they can't understand anything for a prolonged period (largely because it isn't any fun to GM either).

Language barriers are one of those things that, while of great importance and storytelling utility in narrative fantasy, are pretty much impossible to utilize in TTRPGs.

So yeah, having to spend points on languages specifically, as opposed to ability dots that provide languages along with charm tree access (and dice for linguistics based tasks like cryptography), is stupid and unbalanced.
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Longes
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Post by Longes »

In 3e Linguistics skill doesn't even give free languages. The skill itself covers written speech and is used for social checks done via writing.

Languages in Exalted are very much a point tax on your character concept. There's a total of about ten languages in the game, all of roughly equal importance. The closest thing to a Common is Riverspeak. But, if you live in the Realm then your native language is Low Realm. If you are a dynast, then your native is High Realm. If you ever plan to deal with spirts/demons/gods are a PC then you are contractually obligated to buy Old Realm. And so on. Practically every character concept is required to buy at least one language. And then you also have to buy Linguistics and Lore if you want to be literate. It's kind of a mess.
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Post by Heaven's Thunder Hammer »

I've seen the current devs, back then mostly as mods and general RPG.net posters thinking that the BP/XP divide was a good idea back in... 2011/12 or something. These guys liked it, and even if they didn't like it, went so far down the path of defending that they've gone into full retard denial mode.

Getting rid of it is one of the first things I always did when playing. "Hey guys. Here's 150 xp to buy more stuff for your character." In the last game I played in 2012 we tried out flat XP costs and it worked out ok. Players were a bit less likely to buy a dot here or there on a whimsy, and instead were fairly careful about how they spent XP.

The devs attitude is that BP should be buying charms, but in pretty much every game I've ever played in players felt that they didn't have enough dots in attributes, abilities, virtues or willpower to properly represent the beginning of their character concept.
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Post by Whipstitch »

Mechalich wrote: Language barriers are one of those things that, while of great importance and storytelling utility in narrative fantasy, are pretty much impossible to utilize in TTRPGs.
Yeah, in practice I typically end up treating languages as if they were accents when I am the dungeon master in D&D. Just about every sapient capable of speech uses common and/or is multilingual so the languages are just an easy excuse for me to give you a hint about where characters may be from based on what they're most comfortable using.
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Longes
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Post by Longes »

FrankTrollman in ArsMagica OSSR wrote:Even though the Magi and Companions are better than the grogs, they still need to take an equal number of points of Virtues and Flaws. I don't understand the reasoning there. Frankly, I don't understand why Flaws are worth points and Virtues cost points. I mean, I understand why Champions did that, and I understand that Ars Magica copied that concept because it was the 80s, but in the 21st century I don't understand why it is still like that.

See, like every collection of Flaws (or disadvantages or drawbacks or negative qualities or whatever your system calls them), there are ones where the character is just objectively worse, and there are ones that just generate stories. For the character or the player, not all Flaws are bad and not all Virtues are good. And the book acknowledges this! And then just shrugs. Some Flaws are good, what can you do? It's not like you're writing a new edition or anything.

Secondly, the game as a whole isn't even intended to balanced on any axis, so why bother asking the Flaws and Virtues to balance out? If you want to play a wealthy baron werewolf with flexible formulaic magic, why not? What is the game protecting us from by forbidding a character from taking that fourth major Virtue or sixth minor flaw? And why are we being asked to “pay” for great wealth in the first place when the game will let us have whatever starting equipment we want just by sucking the Storyguide's flacid cock?

This whole false balance of Virtues and Flaws paying for each other is a sham. And the author knows it's a sham, because he's been playing this game for a decade and a half and knows damn well that the 1980s game design concept of character flaws balancing superpowers never really worked out. And then instead of actually doing anything about, he just draws attention to this fact and walks off.
Remember that? Well, Exalted writers learned from the best. In Exalted certain skills a Favored, and you buy those at a discount. In chargen when you spend skill points you spend them all equally, but when you spend freebies at the end of chargen you buy favored skills at a discount. So how did the Exalted dev fix this mathematical annoyance? Well, they wrote a note saying that if you are going to buy any non-favored skills, you should buy them with skill points, not freebie points. Problem. Fucking. Solved.
Exalted3e wrote:Final tip: If your character is going to have any dots in non-Caste, non-Favored Abilities, it’s best to buy them right now, rather than later when you’re customizing your character with bonus points. Caste and Favored Abilities are much cheaper to buy with bonus points.
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Post by GâtFromKI »

Mechalich wrote:Language barriers are one of those things that, while of great importance and storytelling utility in narrative fantasy, are pretty much impossible to utilize in TTRPGs.
It's usable in a modern setting - when the PCs go to Chinatown, one of the PC understand what is said and the NPCs don't know that, or he get a circumstance bonus to diplomacy by speaking Chinese.

This trope can be transposed in fantasy, but it's harder to do. Everyone knows why you want to go in Chinatown, why you want to speak to the inhabitants or understand them, why don't just kill everyone, etc. In fantasy land, people at HobbitTown are assumed to speak common, and you don't speak to people of OrcTown - you just kill everyone.
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Post by Zaranthan »

GâtFromKI wrote:This trope can be transposed in fantasy, but it's harder to do. Everyone knows why you want to go in Chinatown, why you want to speak to the inhabitants or understand them, why don't just kill everyone, etc. In fantasy land, people at HobbitTown are assumed to speak common, and you don't speak to people of OrcTown - you just kill everyone.
Eh, this isn't actually mandatory. You can certainly have a group of xenophobic hobbit elders who converse amongst themselves in Hobbit in front of outsiders, and might be impressed by your diplomancer speaking with a Shire accent. You can also make OrcTown less of a fortress and more like the bad part of town. The mead is swill, the meat is undercooked, and you've got to barricade your door at the inn if you want to wake up with all your stuff, but your gold is good as long as you don't rock up to the gates flying the flag of Lordaeron.
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Post by Longes »

Zaranthan wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:This trope can be transposed in fantasy, but it's harder to do. Everyone knows why you want to go in Chinatown, why you want to speak to the inhabitants or understand them, why don't just kill everyone, etc. In fantasy land, people at HobbitTown are assumed to speak common, and you don't speak to people of OrcTown - you just kill everyone.
Eh, this isn't actually mandatory. You can certainly have a group of xenophobic hobbit elders who converse amongst themselves in Hobbit in front of outsiders, and might be impressed by your diplomancer speaking with a Shire accent. You can also make OrcTown less of a fortress and more like the bad part of town. The mead is swill, the meat is undercooked, and you've got to barricade your door at the inn if you want to wake up with all your stuff, but your gold is good as long as you don't rock up to the gates flying the flag of Lordaeron.
My point is that languages are essentially an adventure tax. You either know a language, or you can't participate in an adventure. So I don't see much of a reason to have language as a buyable feature on the character sheet. If PCs are going to be in OrcTown, then give everyone Orcish for free.
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Post by Heaven's Thunder Hammer »

Longes wrote:
My point is that languages are essentially an adventure tax. You either know a language, or you can't participate in an adventure. So I don't see much of a reason to have language as a buyable feature on the character sheet. If PCs are going to be in OrcTown, then give everyone Orcish for free.
It's something that is easy enough to houserule away - "You're an Exalted, you can learn a language you don't know in a day or two." Boom. done. I think there must be a better way of handling languages in a game without it being so annoying.
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Post by Username17 »

HTH wrote:I think there must be a better way of handling languages in a game without it being so annoying.
Languages work in Earth based games just fine. The fact that you can read the Russian diary without taking it to a translator or that you can understand the chattering of the Italian mobsters has obvious ramifications. What a language would be used for and what you would have to do to get around not knowing one is obvious. They do not work as well in D&D land because you don't know anything about the Gnomish Language, including what use it would be to know or what to do if it turns out that it's important that you don't know it.

Basically, Languages are a setting issue rather than a rules issue. Champions, Feng Shui, Shadowrun, and Vampire all have very different rules for languages, but in actual games the languages work similarly well. Because the real issue is that it takes a lot of setting fluff to make French and Japanese be things that people care about and understand the meaning of their characters knowing or not knowing them. Earth gets that for free, but any high fantasy world you make has to do all that world building from scratch.

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