Flight and Teleportation in RPGs

[Kaelik]

MOD EDIT: Wishing death and/or suicide on another poster is forbidden.

Uh... wtf did I say?

[SlyJohnny]

Hah, misread. Isn't too much in the monster manual a couple Allips can't take down when you provide them with tactics though.

They're the most economical way to kill the tarrasque, right?

[zugschef]

At least, that is the actual military experience of the past century.

But thats only because our airplanes are not transformers who can land and walk around!
Eh, what I'm trying to say. How is the actual Military experience applicable to an Fantasy world, where the flying things also might be tanks?

How does that invalidate the claim that flying alone doesn't cut it?

Setting realism and logic as equal leads to stupid. I'm all for "Fuck realizms!" in fantasy games, but logic is essential for a structured game, otherwise things become surreal.

[Omegonthesane]

At least, that is the actual military experience of the past century.

But thats only because our airplanes are not transformers who can land and walk around!
Eh, what I'm trying to say. How is the actual Military experience applicable to an Fantasy world, where the flying things also might be tanks?

How does that invalidate the claim that flying alone doesn't cut it?

Normally you need units that are incapable of flight, because being capable of flight requires "not being capable of ground operation" for military vehicle sized things plus a degree of "made of glass".

In D&D? Dragons.

[zugschef]

In D&D? Dragons.

But it takes away one of the dragon's advantages, namely flight. A dragon and a closet troll in a closet is something completely different than a dragon and a closet troll under the open sky. And as far as I am concerned, that was the only claim. And it's tautologically correct: taking away the advantage of flight denies the advantage of flight.

[MGuy]

MOD EDIT: Wishing death and/or suicide on another poster is forbidden.

Uh... wtf did I say?

You said "Kill yourself"

[brized]

Mental note: Kaelik can go into a fugue state.

Anyway, this discussion leads me to believe one thing: In any setting where you have D&D-style dragons, one of the first questions it should address is, "Why don't they run the world like in Shadowrun?"

[Mechalich]

Anyway, this discussion leads me to believe one thing: In any setting where you have D&D-style dragons, one of the first questions it should address is, "Why don't they run the world like in Shadowrun?"

I'd extend that to worlds where you have winged humanoids at human level intelligence. Pathfinder has multiple winged races - Strix, Wyvarans, Syrinx, and a couple of others. Why don't they dominate?

[OgreBattle]

Anyway, this discussion leads me to believe one thing: In any setting where you have D&D-style dragons, one of the first questions it should address is, "Why don't they run the world like in Shadowrun?"

In some settings they're the servants of the chief gods of good and evil, so they're more like agents of a greater power than direct rulers.

In a later Dragon Lance arc the world gets ruled by a few super dragons that highlander'd all the other dragons.

In Dark Sun aren't there lords who became dragons or something?

In games like Dark Souls the "era of dragons" existed in the past but they were largely destroyed by godly beings who are worshipped by people in the current age.

In Lodoss War, every major kingdom has a guardian dragon, but they're asleep most of the time.

In Breath of Fire 4, the founder of the world's most powerful nation is a dragon-god. He was prophecized to return but the current rulers have been preparing to kill him as they don't want to give up control to a mythological figure from the past.

In FFXIV there's a nation of dragons up further north. They're the original inhabitants of the continent the game takes place in, but a powerful humanoid kingdom arose with the magitech know-how to destroy and enslave dragons. Eventually the humanoid kingdom fell too but the dragons never recovered in number. There's also a kingdom of dragon slayers who partake in dragon blood to become Dragoons, but there's a chance they go berserk and turn into dragons.

[maglag]

In Eberron the dragons are all chilling out at one island and never interfere with the puny ground mortals because lolrandom they're studying a prophecy.

Anyway, this discussion leads me to believe one thing: In any setting where you have D&D-style dragons, one of the first questions it should address is, "Why don't they run the world like in Shadowrun?"

I'd extend that to worlds where you have winged humanoids at human level intelligence. Pathfinder has multiple winged races - Strix, Wyvarans, Syrinx, and a couple of others. Why don't they dominate?

Regular D&D always had winged humanoids at human level intelligence or above.

Astral devas, solars, balors, pit fiends, you name it.

The most common reason is simply "non-winged humanoids reproduce much faster".

[Korwin]

At least, that is the actual military experience of the past century.

But thats only because our airplanes are not transformers who can land and walk around!
Eh, what I'm trying to say. How is the actual Military experience applicable to an Fantasy world, where the flying things also might be tanks?

How does that invalidate the claim that flying alone doesn't cut it?

That was Mechalich's possition? Doubt it.

Setting realism and logic as equal leads to stupid. I'm all for "Fuck realizms!" in fantasy games, but logic is essential for a structured game, otherwise things become surreal.

Don't know what you are even talking about here.

In the real world, flying comes with trade offs. In D&D most of the time, there is no trade off for flying. Instead you have an tank (=Dragon) who also can fly. With no penalties when he is flying.
So I don't see, why/how you want to translate real world military learnings into Fantasy D&D... Where allmost all flying are not helpless on the ground.

[maglag]

Setting realism and logic as equal leads to stupid. I'm all for "Fuck realizms!" in fantasy games, but logic is essential for a structured game, otherwise things become surreal.

Don't know what you are even talking about here.

In the real world, flying comes with trade offs. In D&D most of the time, there is no trade off for flying. Instead you have an tank (=Dragon) who also can fly. With no penalties when he is flying.

We could make airplanes with tank-grade plating.

It would just be highly inneficient because we also have weapons that will make a mockery of tank plating. Our flying machines rely on dodging enemy fire since they're already flying. Not adding non-synergetic tank plating saves up on construction times and costs and whatnot.

And a dragon takes centuries to become tank-grade. Just not very efficient if you want to build an army based on them. In particular when a well placed anti-tank missile spell can one-shot them.

So I don't see, why/how you want to translate real world military learnings into Fantasy D&D... Where allmost all flying are not helpless on the ground.

It's not a point of being helpless. Is that if a flier wants to properly conquer an area, sooner or later they will need to land to check the caves and buildings and whatnot, and at that time they will leave themselves vulnerable to non-flying enemies. There is a difference between "now we can hit it with axes/claws" and "completely helpless".

[PhoneLobster]

It's not a point of being helpless. Is that if a flier wants to properly conquer an area, sooner or later they will need to land to check the caves and buildings

First of all, I do strongly suggest before the group of wankers trying to REALIZMZ this out continues, you guys get together and nut out what your position is, because Zugschef's "you have to land to land which means, er... ok I'll get back to you on what it MEANS, but it IS an uninteresting tautology!" argument is really not the same as your argument.

YOUR argument amounts to "I'm not flat out saying it, but maybe, we will balance fliers by forcing PCs to walk their fliers into tiny troll closets which they MUST do because...????"

And yeah, even before we get to PCs, that's the thing, no flying armies do NOT in fact have to "properly" conquer areas by rooting out every cave and building. Oddly one does NOT need to give EVERY nook and cranny the once over when defining ownership and use of territory. It is entirely reasonable for flying armies to go "fuck it, who wants the caves, lets just have EVERYTHING except the fucking troll closets".

You want bullshit realizmz. Here is some bullshit realizmz. Do you actually fucking imagine that when a nation "properly" conquers a region in the real world this includes their actual forces actually fucking clearing every single fucking building and cave in the entire nation? Do you know WHY rebel guerilla forces hide in caves and civilian buildings and stuff? Because the enemy doesn't fucking search them all and leave occupying forces in every fucking Granny Flat.

Do you really believe this "proper" conquering thing applies to all "proper" conquering armies? Or is that JUST something fliers "have" to do after crushing the vast bulk of opposing armies? Because you actually fucking think balance by forced closet troll is a good idea (probably because you are stuck in realizmz mode and don't even fucking REALIZE that you are arguing in favor of balance by forced closet troll).

[virgil]

In the case of dragons, I presumed their handling in D&D was similar to Smaug's standards. If they wanted to conquer, they would. What stops them from doing so is a profound sense of not caring what the tiny men do with their lives. If they want something, they just take it and take a nap.

For the flying races like the aarakocra, I don't believe their aerial superiority is a big enough force multiplier to offset the population disparities with the more typical races. Granted, I bet they get to keep whatever territory they want to live in; they just don't conquer the known world.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Is there a decent listing available of 3.5 intelligent fliers, divided by maneuverability?