On the Necessity of the Imperium

[Longes]

The problem I have with D&D morality is that a lot of players profess to not care about moral issues and want to just get down and kill some greenskins, which is fair enough, but then they ALSO want to be unambiguously good agents of justice.

Like pick one or the other. I'm fine with playing in a world where the constant territorial disputes and cultural divide between humans and goblins means that human soldiers or peasant militia will generally kill goblins on sight, no questions asked, and none of the PCs happen to be people who have the motivation to seriously question this policy. But trying to persuade me that it's because goblins are innately evil is (a) kinda fucked, and (b) utterly waters down the threat of psychotic "always evil" outsiders and undead, if every low-level punk we roll is a card carrying member of the Forces of Darkness who wants to set the world to ruin.

If you want to run an adventure where we exterminate a nest of goblins, just tell us they burnt down our village's granary and stole some sheep or something, and we'll head right over there to murder them and steal their stuff, and I won't trouble myself with the details. But don't try to promote some weird fantasy human Manifest Destiny and THEN say that you don't care to wax philosophical about morality.

I believe you are in need of a dose of sacred prometheum to ease your torment and restore the proper faith in the superiority of our beloved God-Emperor.

[ishy]

The problem I have with D&D morality is that a lot of players profess to not care about moral issues and want to just get down and kill some greenskins, which is fair enough, but then they ALSO want to be unambiguously good agents of justice.

Like pick one or the other. I'm fine with playing in a world where the constant territorial disputes and cultural divide between humans and goblins means that human soldiers or peasant militia will generally kill goblins on sight, no questions asked, and none of the PCs happen to be people who have the motivation to seriously question this policy. But trying to persuade me that it's because goblins are innately evil is (a) kinda fucked, and (b) utterly waters down the threat of psychotic "always evil" outsiders and undead, if every low-level punk we roll is a card carrying member of the Forces of Darkness who wants to set the world to ruin.

If you want to run an adventure where we exterminate a nest of goblins, just tell us they burnt down our village's granary and stole some sheep or something, and we'll head right over there to murder them and steal their stuff, and I won't trouble myself with the details. But don't try to promote some weird fantasy human Manifest Destiny and THEN say that you don't care to wax philosophical about morality.

Having devil and demons etc. as always evil outsiders is just as fucked as having always evil goblins.

[SlyJohnny]

I believe you are in need of a dose of sacred prometheum to ease your torment and restore the proper faith in the superiority of our beloved God-Emperor.

Heh!

Funnily enough, I have a problem with a lot of Only War games in that players really generally don't seem interested in playing up the human angle of being a poor faceless soldier in an improbably huge army run by a fascist, bureaucratic theocracy. A lot of people generally seem really eager to glorify the idea of being a jackbooted thug in a setting where you're actively encouraged not to question the morality of being fascist stormtroopers. It's actually super creepy.

A lot of Warhammer 40k fans I know go really hard on the idea that the Imperium is "necessary", as in that the Imperium of Man is as liberal and just as it can afford to be while still allowing humans a chance to survive.

Having devil and demons etc. as always evil outsiders is just as fucked as having always evil goblins.

I always preferred a more Lovecraftian idea of devils and demons, really. Having them as just another race of people is kind of dull; the idea that the furthest you can reach into the outer planes is finding another race of humanoids that are taller and have wings and alabaster skin is just... eh.

[hyzmarca]

Same thing if you said evil people reincarnate (through birth) as goblins.

That actually works if you have a well-defined reincarnation cycle and a way out of the evil trap.

It obviously doesn't work in real life, but in fantasy. Yes, I can see it being perfectly justified if evil people reincarnate as Goblins, who then have to live sufficiently good likes to earn their way back to being human. Then you have a really compelling narrative for altruistic goblins trying to work their way up the reincarnation ladder.


In fact, here is a relevant image macro

[SlyJohnny]

Okay, but that still carries racial superiority overtones?

Reincarnation as a religious belief in real life is normally used to justify horribly oppressive caste systems.

[Longes]

I believe you are in need of a dose of sacred prometheum to ease your torment and restore the proper faith in the superiority of our beloved God-Emperor.

Heh!

Funnily enough, I have a problem with a lot of Only War games in that players really generally don't seem interested in playing up the human angle of being a poor faceless soldier in an improbably huge army run by a fascist, bureaucratic theocracy. A lot of people generally seem really eager to glorify the idea of being a jackbooted thug in a setting where you're actively encouraged not to question the morality of being fascist stormtroopers. It's actually super creepy.

A lot of Warhammer 40k fans I know go really hard on the idea that the Imperium is "necessary", as in that the Imperium of Man is as liberal and just as it can afford to be while still allowing humans a chance to survive.

Being ground to dust by a faceless mericeless bureaucratic machine isn't fun. Playing as a trigger happy violent psychopath is.

An argument can be made for Imperium's necessity. Chaos Gods are totally real, and thinking wrong things brings their attention. Saying "Nurgle" makes milk curdle. Thought police is a necessity in 40k beyond just suppression of political ideas.
However, an argument could be made that there are totally planets and societies in the Eye of Chaos that functions perfectly fine with the chaos gods. Q'Sal, for example, which isn't even a theocracy and has technology far beyond what imperium has (although it runs on blood sacrifices).
It's pretty much a choice between facist thought police, and being a pawn for the evil alien gods.

[SlyJohnny]

In past editions, they've played up the fact that the Imperium causes a lot of its own problems and is a self-justifying engine of unnecessary human misery. The AdMech's mysticism was seen as tragic stupidity.

It's only recently, and only specific writers, that have been playing up the "ignorance and mindless zeal actually constitute a workable mental defence against the warp" aspect, and creating elaborate justifications for why the AdMech can't reverse-engineer anything worth a damn and why the rites and rote learning are the only way they can get anything done.

[Chamomile]

The Tau are doing fine, human vassals and all. Their biggest threats are the Necrons and the Imperium, neither of which have anything to do with Chaos at all. Well, except in that the Imperium is stuffed with gobs more Chaos than the Tau Empire.

[hyzmarca]

Okay, but that still carries racial superiority overtones?

Reincarnation as a religious belief in real life is normally used to justify horribly oppressive caste systems.

I don't think that anything exists in real life that hasn't been used to justify horrible oppression at some point.

Really, there is nothing wrong with having always evil races. The problem is having evil equate to kill on sight. You can always work with evil. And there are plenty of evil PCs, classically.

I mean, fuck, Robilar was Evil. The dude hired orc mercenaries and used them as cannon fodder to clear out the Tomb of Horrors. He was not a good person. He was still a PC.

[DSMatticus]

The Imperium is supposed to be a joke. The punchline is throwing a woman in a lake and setting the entire planet on fire if she doesn't drown. Chaos's greatest success against the Imperium is a convoluted plot to stab Horus with a magic mind control sword, and it only works because everyone around Horus is a fucking moron. People who write WH40K material today have missed the memo, and are just mindlessly beating their dick to how awesome fascism is as long as the uniforms are cool. It's kind of creepy.

[Ancient History]

The Imperium is supposed to be a joke. The punchline is throwing a woman in a lake and setting the entire planet on fire if she doesn't drown. Chaos's greatest success against the Imperium is a convoluted plot to stab Horus with a magic mind control sword, and it only works because everyone around Horus is a fucking moron. People who write WH40K material today have missed the memo, and are just mindlessly beating their dick to how awesome fascism is as long as the uniforms are cool. It's kind of creepy.

WH40K is proof that Poe's Law works with miniature games too.

The problem is that if you don't explicitly clue people in to the joke, they're going to grow up taking it seriously and then try to play it straight, working the No Prize game to justify seeming inconsistencies and blithely mindcaulking everything else. You don't just get to the point where everyone is drinking the kool aid, you get to the point where they claim they like the taste of the kool aid and start linking you to articles online about how arsenic is good for you.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Sounds like some people need a round or two of Power Kill.

[maglag]

I believe you are in need of a dose of sacred prometheum to ease your torment and restore the proper faith in the superiority of our beloved God-Emperor.

Heh!

Funnily enough, I have a problem with a lot of Only War games in that players really generally don't seem interested in playing up the human angle of being a poor faceless soldier in an improbably huge army run by a fascist, bureaucratic theocracy. A lot of people generally seem really eager to glorify the idea of being a jackbooted thug in a setting where you're actively encouraged not to question the morality of being fascist stormtroopers. It's actually super creepy.

A lot of Warhammer 40k fans I know go really hard on the idea that the Imperium is "necessary", as in that the Imperium of Man is as liberal and just as it can afford to be while still allowing humans a chance to survive.

Being ground to dust by a faceless mericeless bureaucratic machine isn't fun. Playing as a trigger happy violent psychopath is.

An argument can be made for Imperium's necessity. Chaos Gods are totally real, and thinking wrong things brings their attention. Saying "Nurgle" makes milk curdle. Thought police is a necessity in 40k beyond just suppression of political ideas.
However, an argument could be made that there are totally planets and societies in the Eye of Chaos that functions perfectly fine with the chaos gods. Q'Sal, for example, which isn't even a theocracy and has technology far beyond what imperium has (although it runs on blood sacrifices).

You seem to be implying that the Imperium's technology does not work on blood sacrifices either. But the golden toilet demands thousands of daily humies fed as fuel. And each speech merine demands hundreds of dead little boys to be spawned. And GKs need to kill human females to power up their armors. I'm pretty sure every imperial organization actually has a quota of their own people they need to sacrifice every month, between inquisitors burminating planets every other week and Imperial Guard commanders treating their dudes as expendable bullets.

Basically, the Imperium is just as likely to use your life as an consumable resource as any chaos faction, if not more.

Plus, you know, at least the chaos gods allow you to advance to the higher ranks even if you were born with a vagina instead of a dick. If you're born a woman in the Imperium, sucks to be you even more.

[Chamomile]

And each speech merine demands hundreds of dead little boys to be spawned.

There are space marine chapters with close to 1:1 recruit:survivor ratios. Chapters like the Blood Angels who murder like 95% of their space marine candidates are just doing it for funsies. And the Grey Knight massacre of the Sisters of Battle was a one-off thing as opposed to any kind of SOP, but murdering any peasant who so much as sees half a glimpse of a Chaos symbol totally is SOP.

Your incapability to say anything correct about Warhammer 40k has now reached the stage where you are making the Imperium look better because you barely know any of the lore and have an extremely adversarial relationship with the truth in regards to everything you do know. Please consider never talking about this subject ever again.

Plus, you know, at least the chaos gods allow you to advance to the higher ranks even if you were born with a vagina instead of a dick. If you're born a woman in the Imperium, sucks to be you even more.

This is false both in that there is nothing explicit in Imperial law or culture about the role of women or men and also in that any implicit sexism is just as strong for Chaos as for the Imperium. There's a lot of implicit sexism in every faction in the mainline products but the RPGs are gender equitable no matter what faction you're in. Why? Because Games Workshop are terrible people in actual real life and FFG is not.

[maglag]

And each speech merine demands hundreds of dead little boys to be spawned.

There are space marine chapters with close to 1:1 recruit:survivor ratios. Chapters like the Blood Angels who murder like 95% of their space marine candidates are just doing it for funsies. And the Grey Knight massacre of the Sisters of Battle was a one-off thing as opposed to any kind of SOP, but murdering any peasant who so much as sees half a glimpse of a Chaos symbol totally is SOP.

Your incapability to say anything correct about Warhammer 40k has now reached the stage where you are making the Imperium look better because you barely know any of the lore and have an extremely adversarial relationship with the truth in regards to everything you do know. Please consider never talking about this subject ever again.

You not only failed to name a single speech merine chapter that does not mass murder their own population's kids, you completely failed to adress the golden toilet matter. Or the Inquisition. Or the IG. Please go check anything 40K outside of fanfiction.net, then come back.

Plus, you know, at least the chaos gods allow you to advance to the higher ranks even if you were born with a vagina instead of a dick. If you're born a woman in the Imperium, sucks to be you even more.

This is false both in that there is nothing explicit in Imperial law or culture about the role of women or men and also in that any implicit sexism is just as strong for Chaos as for the Imperium. There's a lot of implicit sexism in every faction in the mainline products but the RPGs are gender equitable no matter what faction you're in. Why? Because Games Workshop are terrible people in actual real life and FFG is not.

Imperium sexism is a lot more than implicit. It is blatant in-your-face "There's this group of characters that are the most awesomest bestest at everything out of their faction, and girls are never allowed to be one of them. Not even then."

Eldars of all kinds have girls in important roles. Chaos has girls ascending to daemon princes(ses). Tau has their current top military leader being a girl. Spech Merines have a strict only-boys clause among the setting's factions that have genders.

That's, like, basic 40K lore. You really should go read an official novel or codex or wiki or something. Anything.

[Omegonthesane]

Imperium sexism is a lot more than implicit. It is blatant in-your-face "There's this group of characters that are the most awesomest bestest at everything out of their faction, and girls are never allowed to be one of them. Not even then."

Eldars of all kinds have girls in important roles. Chaos has girls ascending to daemon princes(ses). Tau has their current top military leader being a girl. Spech Merines have a strict only-boys clause among the setting's factions that have genders.

That's, like, basic 40K lore. You really should go read an official novel or codex or wiki or something. Anything.

The Spaz Morons do not run the Imperium, and are in fact barred forever from nearly all the avenues for advancement the Imperium has to offer. Your statement was not "There exists at least one route for advancement that is barred to people with ovaries and it doesn't even get you to de-jure system lord or anything", it was "There does not exist at least one route for advancement that is not barred to people with ovaries".

Where's my fucking breakdown of SCAP? Were other OSSRs like this and I just don't understand? If so, ignore me.

Honestly I'm wondering why the 40k stuff has been ejaculated all over this thread. I've got more Shackled City coming, I've just been dealing with real life (and also enjoying video games for the first time in a while).

Common thread of players acting out their disturbing fascist fantasies through goblin genocide or playing 40K.

[Chamomile]

You not only failed to name a single speech merine chapter that does not mass murder their own population's kids

Ultramarines, and by extension presumably a large portion of their descendant chapters, have death rates that aren't actually zero, but are low. Presumably because they just take the volunteers from Ultramar and turn them into space marines instead of giving them some deadly test to prove their worth. Actual death rates for the Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc. etc. tests aren't stated. The Blood Angels are pretty much the only ones who engage in outright butchery of their candidates.

you completely failed to adress the golden toilet matter. Or the Inquisition. Or the IG.

So? My entire position is that your lack of knowledge is making the Imperium look better than it is. Where did you get the impression I was defending them?

Imperium sexism is a lot more than implicit. It is blatant in-your-face "There's this group of characters that are the most awesomest bestest at everything out of their faction, and girls are never allowed to be one of them. Not even then."

Space marines are only the awesomest people from an outside perspective. From within the universe, there are many, many institutions that are vastly more powerful than any given space marine chapter, and women can hold high rank within them. Coincidentally they only ever seem to do so when someone other than Games Workshop is holding the pen, but there you go.

Also, the in-universe reason space marines are male-only is because it is physically impossible for women to accept the implants. Again, from an outside perspective Games Workshop can be held culpable from that, but from an inside perspective it is not the Imperium's fault that it is biologically impossible to make women into space marines.

Eldars of all kinds have girls in important roles.

Really? You think giving female leaders to the most effete, manipulative, and deceptive factions in the game is a defense of Games Workshop? You're making my case for me.