After the Masquarade

[Whipstitch]

It's not even just a matter of soak but of handling rotschreck. Rank and file vampires revert to "Every man for themselves" bullshit pretty quickly when confronted with incendiaries. There's relatively cheap options for avoiding rotshreck available to dumpster diving thaumaturgists but canonically not everyone is supposed to have the requisite training.

[Occluded Sun]

I've been meaning to post this: Ken and Robin Talk About Stuff, episode 175.

The section about the Chicago Newspaper Wars and how it applies to vampires starts at approximately 19:48.

[Prak]

Dragon's breath rounds are a real thing that shoot a spray of burning magnesium and are used for starting backfires when combating wildfires. I can entirely buy that they will absolutely fuck up any supernatural monsters with a vulnerability to fire.

They're also not particularly reliable or combat-feasible, I've heard. They have a tendency to not cycle properly.

[hyzmarca]

Dragon's breath rounds are a real thing that shoot a spray of burning magnesium and are used for starting backfires when combating wildfires. I can entirely buy that they will absolutely fuck up any supernatural monsters with a vulnerability to fire.

They're also not particularly reliable or combat-feasible, I've heard. They have a tendency to not cycle properly.

That's why you use a pump action weapon.

[name_here]

There are a number of reasons they aren't actually used in combat. But on the other hand they are also an incendiary round you can load into a 12-gage shotgun. So if you have ten times as many people with double-barreled shotguns as the other side has vampires who aren't susceptible to massed assault rifles, you can hit them with twenty blasts each before reloading.

[Occluded Sun]

There's also the point that their cost-benefit analysis for humans doesn't mean much when dealing with vampires. It's entirely possible that, despite their drawbacks, they'd be a potent and utile weapon against bloodsuckers.

[Mechalich]

Generally the oWoD was designed in such a way that you were not supposed to use military-grade hardware. The various core books generally have assault rifles as the most high power thing people can reasonably get their hands on.

That's a defensible design decision. The Earth is fucking awash in something like 100 million Kalashnikovs and a few tens of millions more of other assault rifles, but other forms of military equipment like grenades, belt-fed machine guns, RPGs, Stinger missiles, LAWs, and armored vehicles of any kind are much more heavily restricted and you really shouldn't be able to get your hands on any significant number of them and actually using the darned things has some very serious consequences. Besides the storyteller system really breaks hard when you start rolling 20+ dice for anything.

Now, in an apocalyptic scenario - which a global Masquerade breach certainly qualifies as - the gloves come off and all the military hardware comes out and the rules simply cannot handle it (this is yet another reason why the Time of Judgment actually happening is stupid). The rules simply cannot render something like the amount of soak necessary to survive an artillery barrage.

Perhaps there are some number of elder vampires of generations 5-7 who have the requisite level of Fortitude to survive a military engagement (3rd and 4th gens don't count, since they can't reliably wake up and they aren't sane enough to actually function in any sort of coherent way). It's probably like 10% of the already rather small cadre of non-torpid elders in that grouping, being generous that's maybe a few hundred Kindred total. So yeah, those guys can survive as a fugitive guerilla force, but the rest of the vampiric population - like 99% of it, gets obliterated. And since living as a fugitive guerilla who has to hide in the ground using protean every day kind of sucks even those vampires who could survive a war against humanity have a strong incentive not to start one.

[OgreBattle]

How difficult would it be for a vampire to sneak into the white house and turn the president into a vampire.

[name_here]

My money is on "fairly". I mean, the Secret Service has kind of been publicly humiliating themselves for the past half-decade, but there are a lot of people in the White House and odds are pretty good any vampire would not be able to actually isolate the president or mind control everyone in the vicinity.

Also come sunrise he would be found clinically dead and there would be a new president.

[Lokey]

General starting pc can't reliably get into a car so I think the white house is out.

Gen 5-7 would have the bullshit levels of the good disciplines to not have to worry about a military battalion hunting them: they'd only be found if they felt like it and even if they weren't, the social disciplines are enough to make facing down an apache not a problem. Nuke from orbit would probably be needed.

[Dogbert]

Perhaps there are some number of elder vampires of generations 5-7 who have the requisite level of Fortitude to survive a military engagement.

Actually, it is canon how cavemen killed a methuselah in the times of the second city (it's written in the book of nod I think), and given how a vampire's activity is commonly inversely proportional to their power, it is safe to assume that, if a methuselah can be brought down with sticks and stones, then white phosphorous shells, fully automatic weapons, and flamethrowers can do will do a considerably better job.

[Mord]

Actually, it is canon how cavemen killed a methuselah in the times of the second city (it's written in the book of nod I think), and given how a vampire's activity is commonly inversely proportional to their power, it is safe to assume that, if a methuselah can be brought down with sticks and stones, then white phosphorous shells, fully automatic weapons, and flamethrowers can do will do a considerably better job.

I don't remember that bit of the book of Nod, but even taking it as a given, wouldn't such a Methuselah just be a fledgling in the days of the Second City?

[Prak]

Mist form makes getting into the white house pretty easy, I should think. I mean, sure, there's probably defenses against chemical and bioweapon attacks, but when the "airborne contaminant" you're fighting is sapient and can hang around until someone opens a door, they probably don't mean much.

Also, I'm fairly certain that the president doesn't receive a full medical exam every morning. And then when someone does notice, the fact that he's sitting up and talking is going to make it more of a curiosity than cause for a promotion for the VP.

Also also, if I were a vamp wanting to get to the president, I'd begin by ghouling every person in the white house I possibly could.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Actually, it is canon how cavemen killed a methuselah in the times of the second city (it's written in the book of nod I think), and given how a vampire's activity is commonly inversely proportional to their power, it is safe to assume that, if a methuselah can be brought down with sticks and stones, then white phosphorous shells, fully automatic weapons, and flamethrowers can do will do a considerably better job.

I don't remember that bit of the book of Nod, but even taking it as a given, wouldn't such a Methuselah just be a fledgling in the days of the Second City?

It's still a 4-5th gen vamp, which is around the highest echelons of vampiric power evah. The fact still remains that even 4-5 gen vampires are not immune to having their heads smashed in with sticks and stones, so modern weaponry will smash them much more effectively.

IIRC in the Gehenna book the Antediluvians only got to do shit because they were unopposed (society was collapsing) and SWAT teams vs vampires was usually a win for the former.

I'd like to bring up the Ravnos Antediluvian, though. He seemed badass enough to hold off three Kuei-jin bodhisattvas at once. What's up with that?

[Prak]

I'd like to bring up the Ravnos Antediluvian, though. He seemed badass enough to hold off three Kuei-jin bodhisattvas at once. What's up with that?

I have a horrible feeling the explanation is "sweet [roma] magic."

[Whipstitch]

While I'm sure they didn't feel like they actually needed any mechanical basis for making their big dick NPCs super powerful it must be said that Chimerstry actually is pretty fucking bad ass. At the higher levels you don't even need to physically get off the couch and kick somebody's ass. You can just tell them to imagine you beating them in a fight and then they believe it so hard their asses are kicked.

[Mechalich]

I'd like to bring up the Ravnos Antediluvian, though. He seemed badass enough to hold off three Kuei-jin bodhisattvas at once. What's up with that?

That fight was a scripted off-screen plot device that was intermeshed with a whole bunch of other shit going down at the same time to generally screw the oWoD over in a variety of 'new edition time' ways. Ravnos/Ravana was supposedly fated to lose the battle after killing two of the three Kuei-Jin though - before the Technocracy took exception to the whole thing.

Worth keeping in mind - the Union deployed a bunch of super-aircraft to drop specialized spirit nukes as a means of covering up their involvement and minimizing the civilian casualties, but given a few more minutes to react and the Indian government could have used ballistic missiles armed with actual nukes to wax all parties involved just as effectively.

[Mord]

It's still a 4-5th gen vamp, which is around the highest echelons of vampiric power evah. The fact still remains that even 4-5 gen vampires are not immune to having their heads smashed in with sticks and stones, so modern weaponry will smash them much more effectively.

We never saw character creation rules for generations above 7 that didn't explicitly require centuries of age, so :shrug:? I'd expect that a bunch of cavemen could ambush and kill a freshly turned 4th gen if they still only got their basic 3 discipline dots plus freebies purely because of the action economy... Though a bunch of those cavemen would definitely get pulped in the process. Especially if the vampire in question stocked up on Celerity.

IIRC in the Gehenna book the Antediluvians only got to do shit because they were unopposed (society was collapsing) and SWAT teams vs vampires was usually a win for the former.

Depends on the scenario. Of the two where mortals are involved in any way, one of them is much as you say, while the other is complete batshit lunacy. Since all the scenarios are railroads without much by way of mechanics behind them, it doesn't seem conclusive.

I'd like to bring up the Ravnos Antediluvian, though. He seemed badass enough to hold off three Kuei-jin bodhisattvas at once. What's up with that?

By the time Revised rolled around, the megahaxx 10-dot discipline powers from 2nd edition were literally replaced with "Plot Device," which is exactly what it says on the tin. [Ravnos] literally, in-character, ran on the power of Magic Tea Party.

[hyzmarca]

Perhaps there are some number of elder vampires of generations 5-7 who have the requisite level of Fortitude to survive a military engagement.

Actually, it is canon how cavemen killed a methuselah in the times of the second city (it's written in the book of nod I think), and given how a vampire's activity is commonly inversely proportional to their power, it is safe to assume that, if a methuselah can be brought down with sticks and stones, then white phosphorous shells, fully automatic weapons, and flamethrowers can do will do a considerably better job.

That assumes that the second city was populated by cavemen, instead of by astronauts. This is a dubious assumption.

This is, after all, around the time that the Tower of Babel was being built. You know, a giant space elevator, an engineering feat that we can't accomplish in modern times.

One could make a good argument that the first and second cities were ultra-tech crystal spire places that wouldn't have been out of place on Krypton.

[FatR]

Actually, it is canon how cavemen killed a methuselah in the times of the second city (it's written in the book of nod I think), and given how a vampire's activity is commonly inversely proportional to their power, it is safe to assume that, if a methuselah can be brought down with sticks and stones, then white phosphorous shells, fully automatic weapons, and flamethrowers can do will do a considerably better job.

It is also canon that vampires did in fact caused a collapse of civlization to Mad Max levels in one version of the Time of Judgement. It is also canon that an antedeluvian levelled half of Bangladesh and was only stopped by Technocrat nukes and sunlight-focusing orbital mirrors after he beat fuck out of the best forces several supernatural splats threw in him and fought in normal sunlight for days.

White Wolf canon never was particularly consistent.

What version of it is more supported by the rules (besides where statless blood gods are concerned) depends on how you interpret elder writeups. Do they have every 6+ Discipline power when there are several on the same level? Are they supposed to be be dumpster diving through supplements in search of best shit if they have access to any of the sorcery versions? Are they insane old fossils incapable of understanding the challenges of the new age or highly paranoid supergeniuses with various contingency plans prepared?

[Occluded Sun]

Why would you want a vampire PotUS when you could have a ghouled one?

Besides, if you wanted vamps in the WH, you'd start with the SS guardians. Nobody guards the guardians.

[hyzmarca]

Actually, it is canon how cavemen killed a methuselah in the times of the second city (it's written in the book of nod I think), and given how a vampire's activity is commonly inversely proportional to their power, it is safe to assume that, if a methuselah can be brought down with sticks and stones, then white phosphorous shells, fully automatic weapons, and flamethrowers can do will do a considerably better job.

It is also canon that vampires did in fact caused a collapse of civlization to Mad Max levels in one version of the Time of Judgement. It is also canon that an antedeluvian levelled half of Bangladesh and was only stopped by Technocrat nukes and sunlight-focusing orbital mirrors after he beat fuck out of the best forces several supernatural splats threw in him and fought in normal sunlight for days.

White Wolf canon never was particularly consistent.

What version of it is more supported by the rules (besides where statless blood gods are concerned) depends on how you interpret elder writeups. Do they have every 6+ Discipline power when there are several on the same level? Are they supposed to be be dumpster diving through supplements in search of best shit if they have access to any of the rcery versions? Are they insane old fossils incapable of understanding challenges of the new age or highly paranoid supergeniuses with ious contingency plans prepared?

World of Darkness had way too many absurdly overpowered NPCs, for some reason. They just couldn't help themselves, and kept pumping up the power levels.

[Shrieking Banshee]

Honestly the WOD Vampires kinda are designed with a "Fuck you" rules in every sense. Remember: The main power of the Vampires isn't their powers, or anything else. Its just the Blood Bonds.

Three spiked drinks and the target is your thrall forever. Fuck, they can even feed you the blood you spike their drinks with. It doesn't say like a large amount of blood. Just any amount. Like a few drops.

This was the only reason the Masquerade worked, and the thing that Turned the Masquerade into a Joke. Honestly this makes Playing Vampire so disinteresting as there is no threat to your discovery as a single Roofie can mind control anything forever.

[erik]

Honestly the WOD Vampires kinda are designed with a "Fuck you" rules in every sense. Remember: The main power of the Vampires isn't their powers, or anything else. Its just the Blood Bonds.

Three spiked drinks and the target is your thrall forever. Fuck, they can even feed you the blood you spike their drinks with. It doesn't say like a large amount of blood. Just any amount. Like a few drops.

This was the only reason the Masquerade worked, and the thing that Turned the Masquerade into a Joke. Honestly this makes Playing Vampire so disinteresting as there is no threat to your discovery as a single Roofie can mind control anything forever.

Here, your post needed some enhancement.

[Shrieking Banshee]

Never mentions it has to be pure blood. Give people energy drink samples. Every sip is a drink.