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Ancient History
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Dune

Post by Ancient History »

It's been a long fucking weekend, and I had some Amazon promotional credits from my book addiction. So I bought the digital edition of Dune (1984). It is a great movie. They don't make them like this anymore.

Now that said, it's not a good movie by any stretch of the imagination. The original book is the science-fiction equivalent of Lord of the Rings, in that it's all about big ideas and elaborate thought put into the setting more than it is about plot or story or character development. Most of the dialogue is stilted, there are some gaping holes in said plot, and an uncomfortably large chunk of the book is pure exposition. Like, Starfleet Technical Manual level of exposition.

And the movie follows the book, more or less. It's laden with exposition. We actually get multiple mental narrations from different characters, in addition to opening narration and overarching narration at different points. It follows most of the major and even the minor plotpoints - fuck, there's these two kids following Paul around when he's with the Fremen and you don't even know who those fuckers are unless you were reading the book and paying close attention. It also takes massive liberties - the weirding modules, the appearance of the shields (which everybody seems to fucking forget about), the lack of swords, fucking telepathy...but that's okay.

Even by the merits of film, Dune is bizarre. It doesn't fit neatly into any particular category, because "epic sci-fi" wasn't a genre yet. The stilted dialogue and narration and general choppiness actually hearkens back to nature documentaries and historical films from the 1950s. The practical effects and makeup don't always look great, the fight choreography is laughable, the optical effects are hilariously dated, the costuming sort of hilariously half-assed - the Saudakar look like they're wearing hazmat suits for god's sake, and don't get me started on the Harkonnen haircuts or Sting's mighty winged underwear.

Image
Sting tax.

So what makes this movie great? In a word, pageantry. It's not just the amazing soundtrack (by fucking Toto!) or that the worms look appropriate bad-ass. Every fucking shot, just about, is scenery porn. Tremendous work went into just about ever shot and prop. It makes the Lord of the Rings look a bit weak by comparison, t'be honest, because this - and remember, this was the watered-down version of Dune, not the one where Giger and Jodowrosky would have been collaborating in a haze of cocaine - is insane. They totally embraced the insanity. The result is gorgeous. Usually laughable, but gorgeous. And they got really great actors! Like serious character actors. Patrick fucking Stewart is in here, with a giant wooden record-player guitar-thing (bassinet); Baron Harkonnen is a literal Captain Planet villain; everybody right down to the bit players that appear once and die for no significant reason is giving it their all. This is a film that could have been an 18-hour Ken Burns documentary - and almost was, when the Sci Fi channel tried their hand at it.

It's hard to describe why the parts of it that shouldn't work...work. Like the stilsuits. Very obviously just some latex molded outfits. But they look great and setting appropriate. They look better than anything anybody would come up with today; if they filmed Dune today, the stilsuits would look like full-body camelbaks with company logos on them and desert camou prints. All the technology is bizarre and antiquate and vaguely steampunkish...but that's appropriate, because it's a future with space dukes where people settle wars with a knife-fight and there's an entire planet of soulless gingers ruled over by a floating obese homosexual predator that forces people to milk cats.

Image
No cats were harmed in the making of this film. No idea why the rat is taped to it, though.

It's a wonderfully insane movie, and a lot of the best parts are both totally random and look like they were incredibly cheap. Like at one point, there's a cow that's hanging upside down in bondage gear, and Rabban comes along and tears its tongue off. Why? Who knows! The cocaine Spice must flow!

And maybe it's just me, but sometimes I like it when some of the props or effects look a little low-budget. Not cheap, but low-budget like "Okay, this lightsaber is going to be a flashlight with some random shit glued to it." Because that kind of thing has a tendency to look authentic in a way that a lot of higher-end props...don't. And they have a realism to them that has staying power way beyond the limits of CGI. In Dune, nobody ever tried to brush in a digital wind or something. They turned on the goddamn wind machine, and Kyle Machlachlan had to choke his fucking lines out while getting a mouthful of dirt, and it was glorious.

It gives it a bit of a timeless quality. So no, Dune isn't a great movie. But it's a great one in many ways. It has a sweeping score and great actors and you can tell they put so much time and attention into the sets and things, even the really insane moments that don't make much sense. It's a movie that almost demands you read the book so you know what the fuck is going on. And that's something that you often find lacking in modern movies. I mean, when you bitch about Chronicles of Riddick or something, it probably has fewer plot holes and a more cohesive setting than Dune...but Dune is an epic while Chronicles isn't. The action sequences in Dune are, in general, so weakly choreographed, and so sidereal to the actual plot of the movie, that they stand out. In Chronicles, half the movie feels like an action sequence, with a beat every page. It's almost boring. And Chronicles all takes place over what, a couple days? Dune nominally takes place over two years, cut down to fit in a three-hour movie. Nobody does that these days, unless they feel the need to stick a goddamn first-hour origin story into the goddamn thing like Batman Begins or the Star Trek reboot.

And it's a hard thing to emulate. In fact, I think writers of today probably couldn't emulate Dune if they wanted to. It's aggressively non-commercial. It's clunky. If released today, it would look completely different and be written completely differently and would probably flop. But I love it.
Last edited by Ancient History on Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ancient History »

Also, I want to say that my favorite part of the movie is when Patrick Stewart goes into battle carrying a goddamn pug.
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Post by Mechalich »

Ancient History wrote:and remember, this was the watered-down version of Dune, not the one where Giger and Jodowrosky would have been collaborating in a haze of cocaine - is insane.
The fact that the movie about this movie that didn't happen is in itself a good movie is a window into both the stunning potential and stunning weirdness of the Dune universe.

Of course there are now something like 5 times as many Dune books with Kevin J. Anderson's name on them than were ever written by Herbert, a fact that rockets my nerd rage to dangerous levels.
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Post by erik »

In other 80's movies that have held up well, I just got The Thing and rewatched it tonight. Last time I saw it was a decade or two ago, so I didn't even remember who was it, so twas a lot like watching it for the first time. It has remained solid, despite all the 80's tech that would be anachronisms today (recording tape, computers the size of a fucking wall, a chess computer).

I was gonna see if it was acceptable fare for my 5 or 7 year old, aaaaaaaand probably not. The 5 year old would probably find it either boring or funny, but I reckon it would be nightmare fuel for the elder.
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Post by Maxus »

erik wrote:In other 80's movies that have held up well, I just got The Thing and rewatched it tonight. Last time I saw it was a decade or two ago, so I didn't even remember who was it, so twas a lot like watching it for the first time. It has remained solid, despite all the 80's tech that would be anachronisms today (recording tape, computers the size of a fucking wall, a chess computer).

I was gonna see if it was acceptable fare for my 5 or 7 year old, aaaaaaaand probably not. The 5 year old would probably find it either boring or funny, but I reckon it would be nightmare fuel for the elder.
I recently saw a clip from Hellraiser 2. It was nuts--the violence in it creeped me out way worse than anything I've seen in modern days.

Man. What was it about the 80s.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

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Post by Stahlseele »

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Post by OgreBattle »

The Jodorowsky Dune team split up to create...

-Star Wars
-Alien
-Terminator
-Blade Runner

So wonderful
In fact, I think writers of today probably couldn't emulate Dune if they wanted to
Tsutomu Nihei's BLAME! and related works are pretty dang weird and has months pass riding on an elevator that spans the length of the moon or something.

The cosplay also reminds me of the Dune movie:
https://www.google.co.th/search?q=tsuto ... 8Q_AUIBigB

It's all very 'quiet' and 'bleak' though, so yeah that Dune pageantry is something else
Last edited by OgreBattle on Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Mechalich »

OgreBattle wrote:Tsutomu Nihei's BLAME! and related works are pretty dang weird and has months pass riding on an elevator that spans the length of the moon or something.
I think he more meant 'in a movie.' Blame barely managed an OVA, while Nihei's far more conventional Sidonia got two seasons (please, please make season 3 happen Netflix).

Modern blockbusters are much more formulaic and conservative, partly due to the incredible amounts of money involved - which means to make something awesome and original and risky you need both an auteur director with an incredible pedigree who actually wants to do it (those exist) and a dedicated franchise/fanbase/merchandise tie-in to justify it to the studios. The most recent example of this actually happening is Mad Max: Fury Road, which has all the visual grandeur one could hope for but...basically doesn't have a story.

There's certainly plenty of weirdly awesome and philosophically questionable (and possible cocaine-influenced) speculative science fiction being written these days, but being made into movies...harder to sell. Jupiter Ascending didn't help either, and neither did the phenomenal success of the profoundly conventional new star wars.
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Post by Stahlseele »

See Iron Sky and the Sequel.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by maglag »

Yeah, the Dune movie basically used the rule of cool along a limited budget. They didn't need any fancy computer effects!
Mechalich wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:Tsutomu Nihei's BLAME! and related works are pretty dang weird and has months pass riding on an elevator that spans the length of the moon or something.
I think he more meant 'in a movie.' Blame barely managed an OVA, while Nihei's far more conventional Sidonia got two seasons (please, please make season 3 happen Netflix).
BLAME! got an OVA??? I only remember a cameo in the knights of sidonia anime where the characters are watching what looks like a BLAME! anime. And for extra trolling points it's better animated than the rest of the KoS series.

A movie example of "shit takes time to solve" are, ironically, the Lotr trilogy, or more recently, The Hobbit trilogy, where Bilbo spends so much time adventuring that the rest of the hobbits think he died, filled the paperwork, and are auctioning his stuff by the time the protagonist arrives.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Maxus wrote:
erik wrote:In other 80's movies that have held up well, I just got The Thing and rewatched it tonight. Last time I saw it was a decade or two ago, so I didn't even remember who was it, so twas a lot like watching it for the first time. It has remained solid, despite all the 80's tech that would be anachronisms today (recording tape, computers the size of a fucking wall, a chess computer).

I was gonna see if it was acceptable fare for my 5 or 7 year old, aaaaaaaand probably not. The 5 year old would probably find it either boring or funny, but I reckon it would be nightmare fuel for the elder.
I recently saw a clip from Hellraiser 2. It was nuts--the violence in it creeped me out way worse than anything I've seen in modern days.

Man. What was it about the 80s.
The first two Hellraiser movies were excellent. Clive Barker is batshit insane, no arguments with that but his early work was pretty compelling. I didn't like 3 so much, Americans bought the rights to make them and like we always do when we buy foreign horror franchises we fucked it right up. I tried to give 4 a chance but Netflix refuse to play it for some reason...
Last edited by Count Arioch the 28th on Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
Maxus wrote:
erik wrote:In other 80's movies that have held up well, I just got The Thing and rewatched it tonight. Last time I saw it was a decade or two ago, so I didn't even remember who was it, so twas a lot like watching it for the first time. It has remained solid, despite all the 80's tech that would be anachronisms today (recording tape, computers the size of a fucking wall, a chess computer).

I was gonna see if it was acceptable fare for my 5 or 7 year old, aaaaaaaand probably not. The 5 year old would probably find it either boring or funny, but I reckon it would be nightmare fuel for the elder.
I recently saw a clip from Hellraiser 2. It was nuts--the violence in it creeped me out way worse than anything I've seen in modern days.

Man. What was it about the 80s.
The first two Hellraiser movies were excellent. Clive Barker is batshit insane, no arguments with that but his early work was pretty compelling. I didn't like 3 so much, Americans bought the rights to make them and like we always do when we buy foreign horror franchises we fucked it right up. I tried to give 4 a chance but Netflix refuse to play it for some reason...
Yeah. They really missed the point. Hellraiser was about extreme BDSM. Absurdly extreme BDSM. Hellraiser 3 is just a slasher with leather and pierced nipples.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Also, the cenobites weren't meant to be the villains of either story. They're a major part of the plot, but they're not standard movie monsters. The threat comes from those who summon them...
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Post by Whipstitch »

The moral of Hellraiser is that now matter how much of a perv you are there's always a kinkier space genie out there somewhere.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Either way, I'd totally party with those guys.
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Post by Occluded Sun »

I don't suppose there's any point in recommending the more recent Dune and Children of Dune miniseries to you, because they're far more faithful to the books and far less wacky zondo weirdness. But they're still quite good.

If you want more wacky zondo weirdness, may I suggest Lexx? Either the four tv-movies or the tv-series will do.
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Post by Mechalich »

maglag wrote:BLAME! got an OVA???
There's this thing which is apparently 37 minutes of footage that doesn't exactly make any sense - but yes, I consider that counting as animated BLAME!
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Post by Eikre »

Occluded Sun wrote:I don't suppose there's any point in recommending the more recent Dune and Children of Dune miniseries to you, because they're far more faithful to the books and far less wacky zondo weirdness. But they're still quite good.
Those projects are the hosts of some highly excellent costuming (with some notable failures; in particular, the frequency with which the Fremen appear outside their sietch without a stillsuit), but their prevailing characteristic, to me, isn't the faithfulness to Dune per se, but the manner in which they play it totally straight and dry. The miniseries is prosaic, and in that, the Lynch take is, to me, far more faithful.

I remain convinced that Dune will, some day, be rendered as an apotheosized cinematic adaptation, and when that time comes, it will not be at the hand of another auteur, but of a visionary critic. Dune exists, complete, in the three-ish adaptations which exist now, but shattered into many, many disparate pieces. The story needs someone who, in it, can recognize the sublime, but who lacks the creative ego to take it away from what it already is.
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Post by Maxus »

Eikre wrote: I remain convinced that Dune will, some day, be rendered as an apotheosized cinematic adaptation, and when that time comes, it will not be at the hand of another auteur, but of a visionary critic. Dune exists, complete, in the three-ish adaptations which exist now, but shattered into many, many disparate pieces. The story needs someone who, in it, can recognize the sublime, but who lacks the creative ego to take it away from what it already is.
An extremely dry book with a good beginning and a good end and about four hundred pages of the middle punctuated by "Paul got high on spice and saw the future. He felt sad because the future looked like it was going to suck", and a villain that was made by going 'select all' on the "Villainous Traits", so he's an obese, physically weak, nouveau-riche, ugly, diseased-ravaged pedophile carrying a literally 10,000-year-old grudge and, since this was written in the 60's and that was more widely considered a villainous trait, he's a HOMOSEXUAL etc etc etc

Don't get me wrong. Dune's worldbuilding is very tight. Fremen considering spitting to be the highest mark of respect was amazing. The intrigue-y part were nice. But the only character who I really dug was the Emperor and how he owned his scenes. As seen in my Dune Abridged
Last edited by Maxus on Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

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Post by Occluded Sun »

Maxus wrote:Man. What was it about the 80s.
Cold War. Everyone could die at any moment, and civilization would be destroyed. We could do nothing. Everyone was quietly insane, doing whatever they could to distract themselves from the Sword of Damocles hanging over our collective head.
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