"A game is a series of interesting decisions"

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"A game is a series of interesting decisions"

Post by silva »

- Sid Meier.
Spectralent wrote:In a couple of other threads I've noted that there are some games that have left me feeling unsatisfied in play. In general, there's a big class of rules-light I don't get on with, and likewise I don't like crunchy, complicated stuff.

But, on the other hand, I both like big-book D&D 4e and play-with-a-handout Apocalypse World. So, what's up?

I think at it's core it comes down to the leading quote: A game is a series of interesting decisions. Now, this isn't everyone's definition. It couldn't be. And there's also definitely room for games to be about largely fictional decisions, and I'm not ragging on that playstyle. But, for all games that are about interesting decisions, oh boy do RPGs screw up in a lot of ways.

See, some complexity is good. 4e makes good use of it's complexity; there's tons of stuff, but almost all of it produces different combinations of emergent effect. Hundreds of different monsters mean hundreds of different battles. There's a lot going on! The complexity is earned. There's a reason for it. On the flipside, though, Apocalypse World is fairly low-crunch; everything's resolved with one fairly central resolution mechanic and you're usually rolling only every now and then. But equally, almost every roll, you're asked to make a decision. So, mechanically, those are engaging games!

But oooh boy does tabletop have a lot of unengaging games.

Now, I should note, here I'm talking mechanics. Narrative decision points are universal and not specific to any one game; freeform RP includes narrative decision points. A game's mechanics don't win points here because you can narrate something interesting every time you engage the same, non-engaging mechanical process. I am, obviously, also speaking for myself; I know people want different stuff out of games. Hopefully though this will be useful to other people, too, since I've seen this sentiment expressed a lot of times before I finally put my finger on it and gave it a hard stare.

There are two main subsets I've noticed:

1. Front-loaded engagement.

Where chargen is the only major decision point. Possibly levelling up, too. Veeery common. Very insidious, too, because they give lots of "out of game" fun, and realistically people probably spend more time thinking about games than playing them unless you have a really frequently-meeting group. But having a bevy of chargen options doesn't mean much when subsequently in play, you've only got the use of the one attack you brought, to be repeated endlessly every fight. There are games that have complexity upfront, and more meaningful complexity in play, of course, but some games fall into this pitfall. I'd accuse various generic systems of this, to varying degrees. This also dovetails with...

2. Trap options

This includes dud feats, spells, powers, or whatever, but I'm also expanding this to include trap options in play. If you've got a game that promises an exciting choice between picking the right option and dying every combat... Well, that's not much of a choice. Exalted 2e's "perfect or die" combat is very guilty, here, but it comes up in other places where there's never any real way to engage things: You've got the right and wrong way to play, and that's it. Especially bad when the game was accidentally built to be very unbalanced, and thus there are multiple seemingly viable wrong ways to do it. You can also look at things like D&D's fighter, for multiple inputs. It's a trap option to start (it's a very subpar class), but in addition to that, it has a very one-note playstyle; get a nice sword, get into melee, and full attack every round.

Now, what can be done? Well, the obvious option is "more stuff to pick from that's not a trap". And this is fair; both D&D 4e and Exalted 3e have reasonably engaging systems and both are reliant on a bevy of special moves of varying applicability to make use of. You get a choice between, say, penalising a creature's attack so it can't hurt you or moving it to an ally so they can unleash a nasty melee attack on it. They're both good options; it's your decision on that.

But, I've played a lot of wargames lately, too. And most of those don't have a ton of "special moves". Primarily, they're reliant on positioning of things and a few (so, definitely multiple!) options of approach, between one or two weapon types or attack approaches. So, I actually think games could potentially produce interesting and engaging combat without large lists of cool powers; but I'm not sure many of those exist. But, for wargames, things can definitely be tense and involving with only a few pieces on the board. Infinity is my goto here; the reaction mechanics are downright nasty, and mean any decision to move or even fire is a calculated gamble to weigh up. I'm not calling for all games to be Infinity, by any means, but it's notable how many games on my hard drive I know how to "win".

As before, this doesn't include things like "well your fights include more stuff to do if you set them on a burning zeppelin flying over berlin while soviet hellbats attack"; that does sound fun. This is more part of a thesis that games should be mechanically engaging by default, rather than by external effort.
This was posted on RPGnet by Spectralent dude, but I found it so perfect that I had to bring it here for my heart dear denners. :mrgreen:

Do you agree ? If so, what kind of games do you feel conductive to this kind of thing ?
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Post by Kaelik »

I saw a thread that praised 4e and Shitworld, so I thought I'd troll the den with it!

Can we ban this fuck for being exactly what PR and Roy were to other forums, but doing it here instead?
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Post by Mask_De_H »

He does it to the Big Purple as well.
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Post by silva »

Mask_De_H wrote:He does it to the Big Purple as well.
Huh.. no ? The thread from the big purple is not mine.
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
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Post by Mord »

Is it OK to post threads that have less than 5% original content by word count?
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Mord wrote:Is it OK to post threads that have less than 5% original content by word count?
Are you encouraging Silva to start making threads composed primarily of his own original thoughts?

Seriously now. Think of the consequences here.
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Post by MGuy »

PhoneLobster wrote:
Mord wrote:Is it OK to post threads that have less than 5% original content by word count?
Are you encouraging Silva to start making threads composed primarily of his own original thoughts?

Seriously now. Think of the consequences here.
Would anyone be able to tell the difference? I mean, I find it quite amazing that there exists a person willing to praise 4E this long after death but to find someone who likes 4e AND Aworld? That's impressive.
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Re: "A game is a series of interesting decisions"

Post by tussock »

Spectralent wrote:In a couple of other threads I've noted that there are some games that have left me feeling unsatisfied in play. In general, there's a big class of rules-light I don't get on with, and likewise I don't like crunchy, complicated stuff.

But, on the other hand, I both like big-book D&D 4e and play-with-a-handout Apocalypse World. So, what's up?
"I like my decisions to not actually be informed by rules comprehension and instead have the DM just provide some window dressing as they move the game along regardless of my actual choices."
I think at it's core it comes down to the leading quote: A game is a series of interesting decisions. Now, this isn't everyone's definition. It couldn't be. And there's also definitely room for games to be about largely fictional decisions, and I'm not ragging on that playstyle. But, for all games that are about interesting decisions, oh boy do RPGs screw up in a lot of ways.
Snakes and Ladders is a game. If ones definition of "game" can't include Snakes and Ladders, one has failed. It's not the RPG failing to meet ones definition, but instead ones definition is just a bit shit.
See, some complexity is good. 4e makes good use of it's complexity; there's tons of stuff, but almost all of it produces different combinations of emergent effect. Hundreds of different monsters mean hundreds of different battles. There's a lot going on! The complexity is earned. There's a reason for it.
"I don't understand 4th edition D&D at all, and this makes me very happy because I fail to see when the DM is pulling my chain."
On the flipside, though, Apocalypse World is fairly low-crunch; everything's resolved with one fairly central resolution mechanic and you're usually rolling only every now and then. But equally, almost every roll, you're asked to make a decision. So, mechanically, those are engaging games!
"I have also failed to notice that decisions in Bearworld are almost meaningless. The outcomes are unrelated to my choices in any real sense, and thus I am happy in my ignorance once more."
But oooh boy does tabletop have a lot of unengaging games.
"Boo hoo, I will now wine endlessly about how sometimes my decisions really do affect the outcome of my game experience and this always makes me sad because I am objectively bad at making them. No doubt thanks to my total lack of understanding of any sort of game theory at all, or how games work, or what real decisions mean."

Like, at some point, kids figure out that you asking them to choose between the green lolly or the red lolly doesn't fucking matter. It's a discovery that can make you doubt the efficacy of all offered choices for some time. But clearly, some people just never get there.

Dude would be super happy to play Progress Quest if it just asked him a question instead of making him click the button over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over .... That fits his idea of the perfect game. He be crazy.
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Post by Orca »

If someone praises 4e unreservedly you need to look carefully at their reasoning anywhere IMO. Or ignore them entirely, that's an option too. 4e was a fuckup which was boring to play and lost 90%+ of the player base including the guys I game with.

Its certainly possible for games to lock you into one narrow role at the time of character generation (I know 4e can do this, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear the same of Aworld), and bad options (chargen or otherwise) exist in every game to some extent or another. Both are bad things but neither's solved by tactical combat or special moves.

So yeah, it looks to me like Spectralent's reasoning has the expected holes and ignoring him in future is the best thing to do.
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Re: "A game is a series of interesting decisions"

Post by rasmuswagner »

tussock wrote:
I think at it's core it comes down to the leading quote: A game is a series of interesting decisions. Now, this isn't everyone's definition. It couldn't be. And there's also definitely room for games to be about largely fictional decisions, and I'm not ragging on that playstyle. But, for all games that are about interesting decisions, oh boy do RPGs screw up in a lot of ways.
Snakes and Ladders is a game. If ones definition of "game" can't include Snakes and Ladders, one has failed. It's not the RPG failing to meet ones definition, but instead ones definition is just a bit shit.
No, fuck you. Snakes and ladders is a layer of bullshit for toddlers and retards wrapped around a single coin toss. Excluding that shit makes for a better definition. Or are you going to argue next that Monopoly is a good game?
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Re: "A game is a series of interesting decisions"

Post by Kaelik »

rasmuswagner wrote:No, fuck you. Snakes and ladders is a layer of bullshit for toddlers and retards wrapped around a single coin toss. Excluding that shit makes for a better definition. Or are you going to argue next that Monopoly is a good game?
At least Monopoly occasionally asks for some decisions. You actually don't need to make any decisions at in Snakes and Ladders.
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Post by Ice9 »

I'm not sure whether the class of non-interactive "games" such as Snakes and Ladders and Candyland are properly classed as games or not, perhaps just "activities". Either way, they're not what I would want out of an RPG, so I see no problem with excluding them.

The choice of 4E as an example brings up a point - what counts as interesting? Because 4E certainly does have decisions - it has a lot of decisions every single battle. Not decisions that I find interesting, but they're not technically meaningless either, just boring. If someone really likes finessing exactly which square to stand in to get a +11 bonus instead of +10, then 4E has that for them in spades.

Personally, I'd say that "the amount of process should not significantly exceed the amount of actual decisions".
So "make these five rolls, consult some tables, get a final number, and then the GM ass-pulls what results that number has" is stupid and bullshit.
But "flip a coin for good/bad, then the GM makes some shit up" (and the rules clearly state that) is fine. More MTP than I want myself, but not wasted process or a lie.
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Post by Occluded Sun »

A lot of recent games are very story-oriented to the point that the only real rules exist to organize the process of cooperative narrative construction.

I agree that, in games where the mechanics are a major feature, they should be interesting in themselves and not merely a disjointed frame upon which fluff is draped. But I think it's important to note that many games don't fit into the presumed conceptual category in the first place.

I will further note that making interesting mechanics is quite challenging. To the point that new 'board game'-style systems arise very, very rarely.
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Post by silva »

Ice9 wrote:Personally, I'd say that "the amount of process should not significantly exceed the amount of actual decisions".
Thanks for articulating what I think much better than myself. :thumb:
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
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Re: "A game is a series of interesting decisions"

Post by TiaC »

rasmuswagner wrote:
tussock wrote:
I think at it's core it comes down to the leading quote: A game is a series of interesting decisions. Now, this isn't everyone's definition. It couldn't be. And there's also definitely room for games to be about largely fictional decisions, and I'm not ragging on that playstyle. But, for all games that are about interesting decisions, oh boy do RPGs screw up in a lot of ways.
Snakes and Ladders is a game. If ones definition of "game" can't include Snakes and Ladders, one has failed. It's not the RPG failing to meet ones definition, but instead ones definition is just a bit shit.
No, fuck you. Snakes and ladders is a layer of bullshit for toddlers and retards wrapped around a single coin toss. Excluding that shit makes for a better definition. Or are you going to argue next that Monopoly is a good game?
While Snakes and ladders is bullshit, I would say that there are still games that are not about "a series of interesting decisions". For example, baseball. While there are decisions involved, they are not interesting. "Should I swing?" "Should I attempt to steal?" Fuck, Beer Pong doesn't have "a series of interesting decisions".
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Post by Chamomile »

"What is a game?" conversations never go anywhere fruitful.
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Post by hogarth »

I generally agree with the quotation: if you can play a tabletop RPG without ever thinking about what option to choose, it probably sucks.

But this boggles my mind:
I both like big-book D&D 4e and play-with-a-handout Apocalypse World.
But having a bevy of chargen options doesn't mean much when subsequently in play, you've only got the use of the one attack you brought, to be repeated endlessly every fight.
That's why 4E is so much fun -- because you can fire off a couple of encounter powers before you repeat your one at-will attack endlessly every fight!
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Re: "A game is a series of interesting decisions"

Post by tussock »

rasmuswagner wrote:
tussock wrote:
I think at it's core it comes down to the leading quote: A game is a series of interesting decisions. Now, this isn't everyone's definition. It couldn't be. And there's also definitely room for games to be about largely fictional decisions, and I'm not ragging on that playstyle. But, for all games that are about interesting decisions, oh boy do RPGs screw up in a lot of ways.
Snakes and Ladders is a game. If ones definition of "game" can't include Snakes and Ladders, one has failed. It's not the RPG failing to meet ones definition, but instead ones definition is just a bit shit.
No, fuck you. Snakes and ladders is a layer of bullshit for toddlers and retards wrapped around a single coin toss. Excluding that shit makes for a better definition. Or are you going to argue next that Monopoly is a good game?
So, for a slightly less reductive answer for the people following along at home, Doom, or your prefered Doom-clone of the last 25 years.

There aren't any decisions. You have to go everywhere on the maps, and hit every bullshit button and pickup every bullshit powerup in the right order, and that might be mysterious the first couple times you try but it's still not a decision.

You just get better at the technique of shooting the monsters before they shoot you, while discovering where the map designers wanted you to walk, and then you win.

If your definition of a game excludes one of the most popular genres of the last quarter century, you're getting pretty deep into the no true Scotsman fallacy there.


Some games give you real choices (like diplomacy or civilisation or risk), some games all but forbid making choices but are complex enough that people enjoy trying to follow the rules and agreements anyway (like contract bridge), some games require rather dedicated skill sets that improve your speed through the game but offer no choice at all (platformers), ....

There really is a fuck-ton of reasons people play games, including to spend some time doing something that holds the attention of your child and slowly teaches them how random things are random, and Snakes and Ladders, like tic-tac-toe (with choices where one of them is correct and the rest aren't), are basically just there to teach children about futility. They're still games.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

If you're not realizing that Snakes & Ladders involves interesting choices (even, if it's as fundamental as deciding to abide by the social contract and actually play this game by its own rules); then the entire stack of dismissals of other games on their lack of choice is also debatable.

What is nightmare fuel levels of detail for one person; is an interesting decision for an other. What is pathetic binary choices for one person; is an interesting decision for an other.

I'm going to assume that "interesting" choices are potentially summarized as: "being able to make between three, and up to about a half dozen, choices at any one point in which action resolution is necessary."
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Post by sendaz »

Which is why I went with Samuel L Jackson's KS for "M*****F****** Snakes on the Ladders in CandyAssLand" RPG.

Rated M for Mature
Game contains:
Nudity
Real Gambling
Sexual Themes
Strong Language
Use of Alchohol
Use of Drugs
Violent References

Oh, and M*****F****** Snakes.
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Post by Username17 »

The original Sid quote is about strategy games. It's not really about games of skill like darts or games of chance like Candyland. It's not useful or interesting to discuss darts in terms of the choices made, but it's still a game. Games of strategy like Civilization are series of choices, which is what Sid was talking about.

Anyway, y'all are posting on a troll thread. silva is still a liar and a troll, and you shouldn't respond to him. I genuinely don't understand why silva hasn't gotten hit with the banhammer. Cross posting to other forums for the purposes of trolling is against the rules, and he does it all the time,

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Post by Shrapnel »

Seriously, can we please get rid of bearva? There is literally no reason he should still be here.
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Re: "A game is a series of interesting decisions"

Post by fbmf »

silva wrote:
This was posted on RPGnet by Spectralent dude, but I found it so perfect that I had to bring it here for my heart dear denners. :mrgreen:
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Post by silva »

Well, it was a little joke because I know some people here have a thing or two against the games cited on the post. Nothing besides that.

But hey, lemme guess: Someone activated you to ban me based on some forum-rules interpretation gymnastics logic. :mrgreen:
Last edited by silva on Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mistborn »

silva wrote:Well, it was a little joke because I know some people here have a thing or two against the games cited on the post. Nothing besides that.

But hey, lemme guess: Someone activated you to ban me based on some forum-rules interpretation gymnastics logic. :mrgreen:
Would you prefer to be banned because you have literally alienated the entire board. But yes fuckass one of the few established rules we have is against quoting other forums here for the purpose of trolling. (Usually it's not us being trolled but the point stands regardless.

Like fuck man you're a self admitted troll why are you surprised by this. Other places ban for less.
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