D20 sweet spot (was White Sucks, Fighters nice things, etc.)

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:49 am

Svirfneblin need resource management, in order to have nice things. Standing around and being tough while other stuff happens is *not* a nice thing. Having unlimited uses of powers that make correspondingly little difference is a good side-suit if your limited-use powers are toned-down compared to the Mage, but is no substitute for level-appropriate finishing moves, self-buffs and so on. Also, being clutch / drawing on reserves of strength in the climactic battle and rarely-used super-sword-techniques are broadly supported genre conventions so why *wouldn't* Svirfneblin do these things?

Svirfneblin also need to turn into spellcasters, or discover that they are reincarnated Valheru, or otherwise bathe in Phlebtonium, at 11th level.

Svirfneblin need to be generalists (because they are good at mundane stuff instead of having magic powers, so it has to be a lot of mundane stuff), and also differentiable so you can have more than one Svirfneblin in the party *before* they turn into werejaguars.

Conan and Ishikawa Goemon are both Svirfneblin - Conan is also a "Barbarian" while Goemon is also a "Ninja" - Assassins can also be "Ninjas", because like a 3rd ed feat it's independent of your class. So when three bandits show up, Conan says something about the lamentations of their women and straight-up murders two of them, while Ishikawa takes out the third from the shadows. They are totally hetero macho buddies now, and spend a lot of time counting how many people they kill together.

So they go off, and there's the Ogre Horde of Magnus Tecumseh Khan. In spite of being a Barbarian (who gets bonuses in straight-up fights), Conan is not an idiot, and is still going to sneak around and pick off the Ogres one-by-one, which any Svirfneblin can do. But, because Goemon is a Ninja, he's going to rack up more kills doing this and reduce the number of Ogres they fight at a time (which is some function of their stealth and tactics ability against an abstractified horde).

Then, they find Magnus, and Conan faces him in single combat, which involves a lot of thews and grunting, but also involves Conan winning because he's got "Distract Giant Foe" and "Fell the Mighty" on his list of prepared Svirfneblin abilities.

At 11th level, we're no longer playing Swords and Sorcery, but doing the Vedas instead. So Conan is now an Eldritch King - which is a caster class, basically Druidic, he's tied to the virility of the land or somesuch. Ishikawa Goemon is killed, and comes back as a Risen Avenger, so he mostly still fights people with his sword but he contributes level-appropriate crowd control, teleportation, etc.

This needs to be viable - being a nerd who gets super-manly physical powers and being a big brawny guy who turns magic (not to mention variations that involve being worshipped, seeing the future and so on) are both highly-relevant power fantasies. So you need to be able to switch tracks at this stage and it can't involve trap options.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:59 am

Stop trying to make Fighters a thing. I didn't even read your post, I'll get to it later, but for god sakes, please just stop trying to make fighters a thing. Find some non shit fluff to attach to your character that allows him to contribute out of combat, be that class instead. Make that class if it doesn't exist, just stop trying to make Fighters a thing.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:08 am

WHOLLY SHIT THIS THREAD IS DUMBBBBBBBBBBBBB.

TL;DR Summary of Praetor: I forgot that Rogues exist, so I'm going to spend 10 minutes talking about how fighters should just be rogues, but pretend that I am the first person to ever think of the idea of Rogues, and that this is in any way a useful or novel concept. I will also describe all of this in narrative terms, with no mechanics, because if I did, I might have to admit that I'm really just describing Rogues.

AcidBlades · Post by **AcidBlades** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:18 am

Maybe rogues could get some of that d8-d10 action going on? I mean, people would probably die less with them, and I hear a lot of bitching about "rogues go down first".

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:08 am

The Rogue/Fighter split is the number one thing holding mundane characters back at low levels. Conan has the entire Fighter skill set and the entire Rogue skill set. Even at low levels when he is fighting a wolf rather than trying to rape a frost giant.

There is also a desire for the light armored or unarmored swashbuckler or ninja to be a thing, but that can't come at the expense of the armored warrior being able to sneak around and backstab.

Fighters can't have nice things at high level for a host of reasons. But getting rid of the idea of Rogues and Fighters having protected niches needs to be a thing.

-Username17

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:07 pm

People want more classes. Should the FighterSvirfneblin be different from the Assassin (who gets a different selection of fighty powers?), or the General or Courtier? My inclination is, if there is conceptual room for multiple tables of Fighty powers - for example, A) direct attack powers, B) "overwatch" and multiple-turn activation powers (which the Assassin could have), C) leadership powers (which our General-type class, which we want for Roman Empire and Yellowface campaigns anyway, would have) - then you have multiple classes all of whom have the entire Fighter and entire Rogue skillsets from D&D 3rd, and then "spell slots" to fill with mundane special moves as well.

In literature, there is room for a Cat Burglar type, a "Thief" who isn't especially useful in a fight. This is not a PC character class. As an alternative to being a fucking Wizard, the Fighter and the Rogue need to converge.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:31 pm

Anyway, you need workable stealth/perception systems and diplomacy systems before you can design the FighterSvirfneblin.

The deep stylistic question is - can the system be subverted by the players? In the stealth/perception system, what if the players fail their search checks, but the player specifically says he wants to pick up the stack of papers and read them all. Does his character find the incriminating letter or not?

For diplomacy, the moods are (I'm over-italicizing but I want to emphasize what I'm using as terms of art):
Belligerent: A belligerent NPC knows you exist (is cognizant) and is actively working to harm you. The combat music starts when they detect you (they attack from surprise if they can), unless you have some exceptional charisma power. In combat, your enemies are generally belligerent, but you can stop the combat music with social powers by convincing them to surrender, run away in terror, etc.. Sentries are only belligerent if they (have orders to, or just naturally) kill on sight.

Hostile: A hostile NPC is your adversary if cognizant, but may prefer to oppose you through non-violent means, or may make demands before attacking (so the combat music does not start as soon as they detect you). If the rules of war are in effect, opposing armies are generally hostile to one another but scouts and outriders and sentries will be belligerent, although inclined to flee against superior force. If you are taken prisoner by NPCs, the NPCs will be hostile if they would-kill-you were you to attempt escape (becoming belligerent), and suspicious if they'd try to recapture you instead (becoming hostile; maybe they stay suspicious and let you get away if for example you are fleeing *away* from their sacred lands or whatever).

Suspicious: This is the default mood. A suspicious enemy is likely to make demands (explain yourself, leave my mountain) if they detect you. If you refuse those demands, they may attack, although in civilized areas they're just likely to avoid you. A suspicious NPC who is engaged in trade or actively pursuing an agenda may seek to recruit you if that is to their advantage. For each NPC, the DM sets up beforehand situations in which they could transition to other moods (this is true for other moods as well but most relevant for this one.)
This is where the rules have to make a difficult decision. If you are a charisma hero, then you can walk up to the Stone Giant and it will become Friendly - that's easy.
However, as with the stealth question above - can the players subvert the rules? Suppose you - the player - have your character who isn't especially charismatic give a rhetorically-sound argument for why the Stone Giant *should* help them fight an Orc Patrol. Does that work? Some characters may have being persuasive on stuff like that written as an ability on their character sheet, does their thunder get stolen if other players can "roleplay" their way through such situations?

Friendly: NPCs with a friendly mood will work to assist you in ways that do not expose them to danger, and will greet you and socialize with you and trade with you on a reasonably-fair basis.
A friendly creature may transition to an Ally if it sees you attacked (if it joins the fight), and so on.

Allied: NPCs with an allied mood will risk danger to assist you, and can be expected to take your side in a fight. If you have hirelings or flunkies as a charisma power, these will be allied. The PCs are assumed to be allied to one another.

During a fight, the NPCs are either allies (if they are allied), enemies (if they are belligerent or hostile), or allies-of-convenience (otherwise).

Allies-of-convenience won't make attacks of opportunity against you (generally speaking) and don't distract you from spell-casting, but don't count as an allied model for purposes of sneak attacks and such.

Workable?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:30 pm

So... you think Fighters are super important to the game, so much that you keep describing rogues and mockingly calling them Snivelbin because you refuse to admit that you are describing rogues.

And you think, that all you have to do to make a competent Rogue... is make a fucking diplomacy and stealth system...

Like, are you a parody of yourself? Spoiler alter, you have a shitty diplo system. You know how I know that? Because it's a fucking diplo system that wasn't implemented in every game ever 15 years ago, and you aren't even capable of coming up with new ideas yourself.

Also you can't invent a stealth system. I mean, someone can, but definitely not you, because you haven't even passed the basic core concept of realizing that the guy with lots of skill ranks who instantly murders people with large piles of damage from stealth, or in the first round of combat, or when the enemy is put at a disadvantage is STILL A FUCKING ROGUE.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:11 pm

No Praetor;

People don't want "different classes"; really what they want is to be distinguishable from each other. Don't confuse the two.

As for fighter/rogue split; that was a post-1978 pseudo-grognardism. Before that, "fighting men" were sneaky, or armoured; and both types would fight with weapons. Spellcasters and Priests, being the other two of three classes. When I first saw the ridiculous Rogue skill table from AD&D back in the 1990's I had some feeling that it was weird. Now I'm certain that sensed weirdness has mostly to do with how the class concept was an ad hoc'd idea in the first place.

Unifying the concept of Rogues and Fighters makes more sense as "mortal warrior" occurs more in stories than purely combative; or purely larcenous; characters.

Marv from Sin City can beat any amount of human goons up without needing a weapon; but that doesn't mean he's also not willing to set up traps; or sneak around; to accomplish a mission. Conan; also builds traps; sneaks around; while also being strong enough to free climb rock faces or knock over giant cauldrons full of cannibalistic stew.

Comic and pulp action isn't alone; even historical fiction tends towards those unified combative and secretive character traits. Andrea Orsini from Shellabarger's "Prince of Foxes" is a rogue who impersonates a doctor to enter an enemy castle, reverses an ambush by an enemy rogue (and diplomizes them into being their valet/bodyguard), but they got their career start by looting a suit of armour from a battlefield and presenting themselves as a warrior. Paul Atredies knew about military command; but was trained in "deceptive/slow" knifeplay in order to defeat shield harmonic frequencies; are they a rogue because they use their charisma with a blade; or a fighter because they're a leader of a planetary army who becomes a galactic emperor? An example from television would be Omar from The Wire; a former stick-up kid who has grown up to become a terror of not just dealers, but their highest ranking leaders; wears a heavy kevlar suit and sports a shotgun when "making calls"; relies upon a lot of diplomacy and social connections with local leaders in order to remain safe from reprisal by not making attacks in their half of Baltimore.

Partly; this all seems to demonstrate that the source material being more accurate to the collective narrative than the simulated game engines attempting to do so.

In fact, if one believes Sonshi (and, one should, unless they know more about conflict than the majority of the globes military officer corps. who use Sonshi as part of their teaching materials; while Clauswitz hasn't been used outside of academic military studies post-WWI) deception is at the core of conflict; thus in this respect; most fantasy gamers; and D&D specifically have it really wrong. Rogues who aren't able to wear heavy armour and carry a heavy weapon... don't impress me.

Personally, I really haven't once thought of a Rogue or Fighter build who wouldn't want to dip the other class for at least a level for Class Skills, or equipment proficiency. Even the most "broken" Tome/RoW Fighter I built was atop a bedrock of starting Rogue skills and class abilities; upon which the 17 Fighter levels; that most people assumed to be the entirety of the build, were built upon (with a level of Frank's Bard for spellcasting/temp-maxing BaB, and Dungenomicon Monk because a Con-damage build was the only way an intelligence focused character was going to have a hope of staying on top of bigger threats).

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:30 pm

Well, maybe, but I think people want many classes as well. It's difficult to distinguish what people *say* they want but from what people will respond to favorably; but tyranny-of-choice long lists of crunchy options seem, to me, to be what people actually like and not what people say they like. To take the most egregious example, people really like the umpteen flavors of available wizard in Rifts. They like them so much that they like Rifts! Rifts is popular! Rifts is a fucking dumpster fire!

Maybe I'm over-correcting to the specific rage vs D&D4 for dropping classes, but I think (in addition to specialties which you can combine with multiple classes), you want:
- FighterSvirfneblin - who is a D&D 3rd fighter/rogue, and a ToB crusader or something.
- Assassin - who is a D&D 3rd fighter/rogue, who gets fighty moves which are specifically dishonorable, and looks good in black,
- General - who is a D&D 3rd fighter/rogue, who gets fewer fighty moves but can lead tiny men on adventures (the Fighter can lead tiny men on the battlefield just fine, the General's power is that you have flunkies who *go with the party* when everyone puts on mustaches and pretends to be prison guards).

Is "Ranger" another class or is it a specialty for the Svirfneblin? I think it wants to be a subclass (so that Robin Hood can be a General and take Ranger as his first subclass choice), but I am sure you want at least six more (and probably 9 more) classes to choose from.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:59 pm

For fucks sake, if the entire concept of your fucking class is that he's a Rogue, just call him a fucking Rogue. It wasn't funny the first time you changed the name of your Rogue idea from Fighter to an equally terrible name that fails on all the same levels plus an additional one, it sure as fuck isn't funny now either.

Like, I get that you are complete fucking idiot who doesn't understand that the Rogue class exists, and I am willing to work with that, but for fucks sake stop endlessly repeating the same shitty not joke over and over because you think it makes me sound unreasonable for expecting you to pick up on the thing even people who joined the fucking Den to talk about how much they love fighters figured out in 2013.

Just call your fucking Rogue concept the fucking Rogue.

AcidBlades · Post by **AcidBlades** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:14 pm

Have you ever heard of the Soldier Praetor? I'm sure that what you're looking for already exists. Hell you could even make a Conan with it, simply due to the fact that Conan is explicitly said to rely more on ferocity and cunning more than actual swordskills (BAB).

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:03 pm

AcidBlades wrote:Have you ever heard of the Soldier Praetor? I'm sure that what you're looking for already exists. Hell you could even make a Conan with it, simply due to the fact that Conan is explicitly said to rely more on ferocity and cunning more than actual swordskills (BAB).

If my problem were, "I want to play D&D and I need a class that actually simulates Conan, and I don't mind that he's still second-rate compared to a Cleric", I would use this Fighter: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=33294

Now, I like the Tome Fighter. I was lobbying to give the Tome Fighter all the bonus feats PHB fighters get as well, but Frank didn't think that would stick in people's actual games (which was always his and K's angle, coming through especially clearly in their undead rules.) But the Tome Fighter sorta limps-along, not sucking as bad as many of the alternatives.

But my actual problem is that I want to write a D20-like heart-breaker in which "a lone stranger, with a trusty sword, iron thews and nerves of steel" is a competitive character in the range that the concept is level-appropriate, and in which the game does not fall apart at 11th level when that concept needs to be retired and you have to play Exalted instead.

I'm breaking that process down into stages as best I can, because it's a big challenge.

You select a subclass at 1st level. If you are a human (or otherwise don't get a menu of race-specific bonuses, which amount to a subclass), you can select a second subclass. You get another Adventuring-tier subclass at levels 3, 6 and 9. Heroic-tier subclasses arrive at levels 11, 13, 16 and 19.
This gives you a quadratic number of abilities so a 10th level hero has like 16 special rules she does, in addition to whatever talents (which work like vancian spellcasting mostly, regardless of what you are), I think that's fine, but it is getting close to the point were you'll forget what's on your character sheet, so might need to be toned down.

Subclass: Barbarian
Favored Talent: Rage (X). You may expend any prepared talent to enter a Rage, as if you had Rage at the same talent level.
Special Features:
L2: Uncanny dodge.
L7: Prepare two additional 4th-level talents; these must be a might talents.
Bonuses:
L1: +10 ft. movement speed (personal or for your mount)
L5: Your charge movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity for you or your mount. Note that set attacks and overwatch are not attacks of opportunity.
L10: For any might talent you prepare, your effective character level is increased by +1.

Subclass: Bard
Favored Talent: Bards have access to all Music talents. They are learned and prepared in the manner usual for their class.
Special Features:
L2: Fast music. If you prepare a Music talent with an activation time of standard action in a talent slot 1 higher than normal, that talent can be activated as a swift action, provided you do not use another Music talent for your standard action in that round.
L7: Inspiring. Allies (other than you) within 30 feet, who have detected you, add your Charisma modifier as a Morale bonus to all Will defenses. While this ability is active, you are making substantial noise - you may inactivate this ability
Bonuses:
L1: +2 dodge bonus to AC against the first melee attack against you in each round.
L5: Add +L to your concentration checks when using talents, where L is the level of the talent.
L10: Any Morale bonuses provided by your talents are increased by +1. In order to gain this bonus, you must chant or sing - this is not exclusive with verbal components of a given talent, so for example it works with persuasion talents - but is incompatible with silence.

Subclass: Trick Fighter
Favored Talent: Finisher (X). You may expend any prepared talent to Finish an enemy with compromised defenses, as if you had prepared Finish at the same talent level.
Special Features:
L2: Improved Trip.
L7: Improved Disarm.
Bonuses:
L1: +1 to hit and damage with exotic weapons.
L5: For any trickery talent you prepare, the effective level of the slot is increased by +1, but a talent cannot be prepared in a slot below the level of the talent (thus Finisher, a level 1 talent, would act as if prepared in a level 2 slot if a level 1 slot is used - but a level 0 slot cannot be used.)
L10: When you utilize an expendable trickery talent on an opponent with compromised defenses, you are eligible to recover the talent at +5 (cumulative with other recovery bonuses if they apply.)

So in addition to most feat trees and several of the D&D 3 classes, subclasses also cover such things as having a Patron Deity/Philosophy/Domain, a wizards specialty, the fighting styles from Tome of Battle, and so on.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:18 pm

Oh goody another person who was obviously talking about D&D like games, even specifically D&D games is now pretending they really meant they wanted to play a game with no Wizards about their Fucking Thews character, and can therefore talk about there stupid thews and not associate it with D&D right up until the first moment that someone else is talking about D&D in another thread and he can carry over his stupid thews thoughts from Thews, the Board Game, and demand that D&D accommodate them.

Sadly, this is actually an improvement for the thread.

AcidBlades · Post by **AcidBlades** » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:19 pm

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50949

Mate. This pretty much does whatever you want it to do man. Maybe the Con to all saves is...much, but it's perfectly serviceable. You don't need to make a fantasy heartbreaker mang.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:47 am

Praeton; just do what I do when I want to "Conan"; play a RoW barbarian.

With a high Int or Wis score you can have "cunning" or "insight" be a part of your characters actions. In fact; the last time I played a barbarian; "using their environment" to win encounters made up about 50% of how they resolved combat encounters; with very little actual use of their rage dice, and lots of knocking over scenery; setting things on fire; breaking environmental objects; and other cases of applying leverage to elements of the environment for personal gain. The onus, however, is on the player to be able to creatively suggest non-attack actions which can benefit them in combat.

As for Conan themselves.... they relied upon several things in Ron E. Howard's writings:

[*]Fear of the Eldritch, Warlocks, Witches, and Practitioners of the Darke Artes (Howard and Lovecraft wrote in Lovecraft's shared setting)
[*]Encyclopedic knowledge of: plants, animals, crafting improvised weapons/traps, athleticism (climbing, swimming, balance, jumping, etc.)
[*]Lots of physicality; strength, speed
[*]Ability to avoid being injured (Conan is not tough; just strong & fast)
[*]Fear-based running speed (not rage-based) from remotely large monsters
[*]Nonchalance, even dismissive, attitude about meeting so-called gods
[*]Willing to steal and use "magic" items against their owners
[*]Motivated towards adventure by massive greed, tempered only by lust (Conan hates losing a pile of treasure; but doesn't mind if there's a girl who wants to fuck as a consolation prize)

Really; the more that I think of repeated; iconic; elements from Ron E. Howard's Conan, the more that I feel he's simply a "strong Rogue"; more than a "cunning Barbarian".

The problem isn't that Conan isn't a Barbarian; it's that Praetor never read any of Vance's Dying Earth; and thus doesn't understand the roots of D&D are actually very "caste" based. Solitary Wizards of great power literally rule cities, while low-power roguish-fighters fill the streets; the entire world is similarly dominated by solitary beings of great power; who control areas with much weaker creatures dwelling within.

A better solution for wanting "fighters" to be the norm at low power levels; would be to make all spellcasting classes unable to be taken before level 5; and only allow spellcasting classes to be taken after level 5; in order to prevent them from having to step outside the limits many people have of fighter types in their personal narrative space.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:01 am

Judging__Eagle wrote:A better solution for wanting "fighters" to be the norm at low power levels; would be to make all spellcasting classes unable to be taken before level 5; and only allow spellcasting classes to be taken after level 5;

Except that, by level 5, CL 1 spellcasting abilities are so hilariously obsolete it's not even funny. If anything, you'd have to ditch zero-to-hero altogether and establish a game in "tiers" a-la M&M (Like 5E's tiers, except PCs start at the Tier's opening level and are capped at the tier's final level so they're always within the same "league"), point at which you're no longer playing d&d.

Still, I could see it happening something like:

T1 (muggles): lvl 1-4. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue.
T2 (badass abnormals): lvl 5-10. Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer.
T3 (high rollers): lvl 11+. Cleric, Druid, Wizard.

Lokey · Post by **Lokey** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:32 am

Am I missing something?

Not being familiar with 4th ed, I still don't see Conan archetype working well. Don't bring a low/no magic character to a high magic game.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:53 am

Lokey wrote:Am I missing something?

Not being familiar with 4th ed, I still don't see Conan archetype working well. Don't bring a low/no magic character to a high magic game.

Since no one is talking about 4e, you are clearly missing at least one thing, but yes, that thing where he should stop trying to make low magic work in high level is sort of relevant, except that now he is claiming to make up his own low magic game, not that this will stop him from crashing threads in the future to talk about how fighters should still be awesome.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:20 pm

Dogbert wrote:
Except that, by level 5, CL 1 spellcasting abilities are so hilariously obsolete it's not even funny. If anything, you'd have to ditch zero-to-hero altogether and establish a game in "tiers" a-la M&M (Like 5E's tiers, except PCs start at the Tier's opening level and are capped at the tier's final level so they're always within the same "league"), point at which you're no longer playing d&d.

Still, I could see it happening something like:

T1 (muggles): lvl 1-4. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue.
T2 (badass abnormals): lvl 5-10. Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer.
T3 (high rollers): lvl 11+. Cleric, Druid, Wizard.

Something that Frank wrote up regarding the d20 Final Fantasy game whereby Spellcaster class levels; and total character levels; are used to calculate a character's spellcasting; might be ideal. Allowing for more than CL 1 when spellcasting becomes available.

A, different, potential progression could be:

Warrior -> Sorcerer -> Wizard
Barbarian -> Ranger -> Druid
Monk -> Paladin -> Cleric
Rogue -> Bard -> Savant

However, with this method; I'm not happy either.

My only real concern isn't so much Fighters; but the misuse of the term "Paladin"; which most of the D&D "fighter" traits (army command; distant base of military operations) were historically aspects of the Roman Palatines (i.e. field commanders of the imperial army from the Palatine hill war-academy of Rome).

Which I guess might lead to an entirely different sort of split of classes of martial characters:

"[Palatines]"
-Steal all Fighter things related to empire building/management; command of troops; influence/jurisdiction over fortress/garrison; war engines creation/use
-Continue using morale boosting Paladin abilities
-Social manipulation Rogue stuff (No, really; this makes a lot of historical sense, as commands were a means of political advancement; and said advancement involved alternating military and political offices; social ability defined higher level individuals)

"[Barbarians]"
-Non-empire building Fighter stuff; combat, endurance,
-Barbarian shticks related to combat, nature/environment, creatures
-Trapping, Scouting/Stealth, (ab)use mystic object/enemy tactics, Rogue stuff

Essentially creating "law" and "chaos" warriors into classes based slightly more on known history than fantasy history.

I'm not really keen on either of these spitballed ideas; they could be used, but they're currently too rough for practical use.

In the end; I think dusting off Frank's Final Fantasy D20 spellcaster level progression system has become the best course of action. Possibly it will need special attention to modify it with the idea that people will not be spellcasters pre-level 5; and will all be spellcasters post level 5.

DrPraetor · Post by **DrPraetor** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:34 am

I would say, there is a distinct lack of gritty fantasy in which the characters advance, but the character concepts remain forever in the AD&D 3rd level range.

WFRP (in it's various incarnations) and RuneQuest both try to do this, but neither succeeds especially well.

That said, the goal is to play D&D, which as it's own tropes which have-in-turn been cycled into the bulk of modern High Fantasy literature. So the point is not
I want a game in which I can play Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser <- I mean do want to solve this, you need a non-level based sword & sorcery RPG that doesn't blow. Burning Wheel is okay, Fantasy Hero limps along... Frank, any suggestions?

I want a game in which Conan, Elric, Lina Inverse and The White Ninja team up and fight crime in a fantasy mockup of the Holy Roman Empire, spanning a career running from when Lina shoots fire arrows at people and Conan is just a bad-ass guy, to high level where Lina casts Dragon Slave and Conan has to discover he's the Avatar of Crom or whatever in order to keep pace. This game is D&D that becomes the pitch from Exalted - it is the perfect, Platonic D&D that should exist but doesn't.

It is level-based and the Tomes just don't quite deliver it.

Shady314 · Post by **Shady314** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:32 am

Judging__Eagle wrote: As for Conan themselves.... they relied upon several things in Ron E. Howard's writings:

[*]Fear of the Eldritch, Warlocks, Witches, and Practitioners of the Darke Artes (Howard and Lovecraft wrote in Lovecraft's shared setting)
[*]Encyclopedic knowledge of: plants, animals, crafting improvised weapons/traps, athleticism (climbing, swimming, balance, jumping, etc.)
[*]Lots of physicality; strength, speed
[*]Ability to avoid being injured (Conan is not tough; just strong & fast)
[*]Fear-based running speed (not rage-based) from remotely large monsters
[*]Nonchalance, even dismissive, attitude about meeting so-called gods
[*]Willing to steal and use "magic" items against their owners
[*]Motivated towards adventure by massive greed, tempered only by lust (Conan hates losing a pile of treasure; but doesn't mind if there's a girl who wants to fuck as a consolation prize)

Well the only Conan I read was a large collection of short stories but from what I remember Conan mostly relied on the fact that shoving a sword through the wizards guts killed them 99% of the time and they had almost no magical defenses to stop that.
In Conan stories they cant rock an AC as good or better than the fighter, most of their spells are rituals, they can summon monstrous creatures and badass animals but even "demons" are vulnerable to mundane weapons and Conan beheads them or stabs them in the heart with one thrust.
Even when someone is buffed by magic Conan can often match them, at least in speed.

Even then he gets saved by plot armor quite a few times.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:50 am

Recall that Lina casts Dragon Slave in the very first episode of Slayers. It's never her go-to spell, sure, but she has it and uses it to end combats right from the get-go. So if you're positing that as the capstone of her advancement, uh, I'm not terribly sure that's totally thought through.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:18 am

Lina in the first episode of Slayers is not a bad choice for the capstone for advancement of blaster wizards. Recall that her next step up in firepower has an effect of "Die, no save" and an area of "caster's choice"

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:22 am

Which are you calling the "next step"? As I recall, the Giga Slave gets channeled into the sword of light (an artifact) for it to be most effective, and then there is a chance of destroying the whole universe every time you use it.