Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[AcidBlades]

Anyone have a particularly huge level of experience with Path of War? I mean, there is probably quite a few stuff that ain't worth it, but is it solid otherwise or not? All I know is that I got a character that dips heavily into the Martial Training for Solar Wind with my Archer Cleric. Does decent damage, but some of it's maneuvers just seem to be kind of meh. Maybe it's because I'm just fighting a lot of beholders and they have arrow reflection crap tho.

Level 1:

Quick overview of the Styles as they are listed on the PFD20 list. I only have direct experience with a few of them though. This is a specific to Solar Wind Maneuvers, but I might just give an impression to all of them. Meh.

Curving Ray Shot: Make a perception check against a target's AC. If successful you just straight up ignore the cover modifier. (Maneuver)
Rating: Pretty useful to get pass Total Cover. However I don't really see myself using this later on too much, and anything outside of Total Cover grants at max +8 AC. Which is fairly severe, however you only got one shot of this before you have to restock you maneuver, and that may take quite a damn while. Stands out more if you get yourself Improved Precise Shot later on actually. As that just ignores most cover modifiers.

Horizon Wind Lanclet: 1d6 damage to a shot. (Boost)
Rating: Scales poorly, and is rather bad even early on. You can probably one shot enemies either way. If you get Rapid Shot in.

Phantom Sun Stance: Generates ammo for your ranged weapons essentially. (Stance)
Rating: Pretty meh. I wouldn't really want to roll with a DM that is anal about ammunition either way.

Solar Sting: Generates 10x10 caltrops. (Maneuver)
Rating: I'd think this might be useful earlier on whenever enemies don't have freedom of movement. Hit or Miss. Not really worth the dip.

Stance of Piercing Rays: 1d6 fire damage per arrow that hits. +1d6 more fire damage per 8 levels after that. (Stance)
Rating: My stance of choice if you're just dipping into this school with Martial Training. If only because the other is lackluster, and if there is a situation that it is. Well I'll probably just not play that game anymore. Both are rather mediocre Stances though.

Steady Hand: 30ft extra on the range. (Boost)
Rating: Very questionable use. I never thought of any situation that would be improved by the extra 30ft mod. Combat ranges rarely needs to go on beyond the 100ft increment, and any ranged weapon that isn't a Composite Longbow is at best mediocre. Considering that it's a boost, not a stance. I would rate this poorly.

Level 2.

Feel The Wind: Ignores Weather Modifiers. (Boost)
Rating: Never seen this in use. Probably better as a stance if you are with a DM who is anal about details.

Intercepting Shade: Make an attack roll, against an another person's attack roll. If it beats their attack roll, then you block their attack (Counter)
Rating: Well there is the cool points that you get. Considering that it's just not ranged attacks that could be blocked, this might be pretty life saving, if situational. Would get if you are simply getting Martial Training. There is probably more useful Maneuvers to be had though.

Solar Lance: Bullrush an opponent and get 2d6 non-fire damage from afar. +2 to CMB for the Bullrush attempt. (Strike)
Rating: At this point, this is a total fucking wash. Bullrushing is worthless unless you're feeling clever. Even then I'd rather just full attack a fucker with all my arrows and be done with it.

Solar Flare: 2d6 non-fire damage. Ignore cover. (Strike)
Rating: Upgraded Curving ray shot. At lower levels just get both of 'em, if you're that worried about cover. Most useful against targets that have full cover.

Level 3:

Blinding Ray Shot: Blinds an opponent for 1d4 rounds. (Strike)
Rating: Pretty damn useful. Considering that there is no saving throws attached, this is going to hit if you're attack rolls aren't ass. Very good stuff.

Phantom Wind Ray: Perception check that must be countered by an opponent's attack roll. The target is flatfooted if they fail. (Boost)
Rating: Depending on the monster, this might just help out your vivisectionist do their extra damage good. Otherwise of questionable worth.

Solar Reflection: 4d6 damage on a target, after that deal 2d6 damage to another target. Merely a single shot may be fired though. (Strike)
Rating: I had some fun with this, clearing out rooms with a single shot, but it might not be really worth it in most situations. Good for minion slaying, not great for anything else.

Sunwalker Stance: May fire an attack during a move action. +4 AC against ranged attacks. (Stance)
Rating: Great in a setting that uses a fuck-ton of ranged attacks, and even in situations that don't use it that much. It's still worth you're time. Good stuff. Switch to this immediately, and only go back to Piercing Ray stance if you're up against the rare-non fire immune enemy.

Level 4.

Dazzling Solar Flare: 4d6 Fire Damage + 1d4 dazes on a failed Fort 14 + Initiation Modifier. (Strike)
Rating: Good stuff. Bad damage type, but dazing knocks an opponent out of a fight really well. It's not dazing fireballs, but it's alright.

Disarm Gust: Make CMB (STR or DEX) check to disarm an opponent and deal 3d6 damage to them. (Strike)
Rating: At this point you'll probably not be passing CMB checks. So I'll give this a pass.

Searing Break: Adds 4d6 fire damage to all ranged attacks. (Boost)
Rating: Kills non-fire resistant things. Very iffy about though.

Solar Storm: For 1d6 rounds. You trap a target in a vortex that denies ranged attacks (not spells though), and the person inside can't make ranged attacks (though they can cast spells). Reflex to get out. (Strike)
Rating: Useful against enemy archers I guess? I always imagine them having good reflex saves, so even then it's kind of a wash. Defensively this might be alright buff for a wizard. Though that wizard is stuck in place presumably.

Level 5

Blinding The Bull: Confirms all critical strikes against an opponent. (Boosts)
Rating: Not particularly useful, unless you're using some high crit chance throwing weapon with a high critical modifiers. Pass.

Double Solar Reflection: Like solar reflection, but a third target receives normal damage. (Strike)
Rating: Questionable use, criting with this attack must really be fucking cool though.

Focused Solar Lance: Pins a target for +2 and deals 4d6 damage against them. (Strike)
Rating: Pretty worthless at this level. If you have solar lance for some reason, I wouldn't recommend the upgrade as the damage bonus isn't that great either way.

Solar Wind Lancet: 4d6 damage plus Prone against a DC 15 + Initiation Mod. (Strike)
Rating: Why would an archer would even want to give a +4 AC bonus to their enemy is beyond me. Unless they want to get their melee dudes a chance to gang up on them, or help catch a foe. Meh.

Level 6

Burning Break: 5d6 fire damage to all attacks. (Boost)
Rating: I ain't got no unique commentary. An extra d6 to your bows? Hurray. Good job running out of ideas.

Solar Meteor Blow: Either deal 6d6 against a target or strike the ground. Either way all within a 15ft radios must pass a DC fort save of 16 + Initiation Mod. With the struck target themselves getting a -4 to the saving throw. (Strike)
Rating: The use is probably limited, but it isn't a terrible technique in itself. I'd make a level 4 or 5 maneuver though.

True Shot Stance: Ignores partial concealment and cover and doubles the critical hit threshold like a keen weapon. (Stance)
Rating: Good stuffs to have around actually. Equal to Sunwalker stance in worth.

Twisting Wind Shot: Straight up critical hit someone with a shot. (Strike)
Rating: Eh. It's only a single shot. Again Full attacking is more appealing at this point, or hell even a simple Precise Shot combo would deal more damage. Unless you are heavily invested into crit fishing. Give it a pass.

Level 7.

Phantom Sunstorm: Attacks deal full damage if they hit. (Boost)
Rating: Ensure that all of your d8s that you get with your full attacks are all 8s. Might as well take it? If you hate rolling low. I can't really see this as particularly great, but +20 damage as a swift action isn't terrible. If not inspiring. At level 7 it is just mediocre though. Even with all the extra dice you get. Probably better with the Solar Reflections tho.

Stunning Solar Flare: deals an addition 8d6 and pass a Fort save 17 + initiation mod for or else be stunned. (Strike)
Rating: Stunning's neat. Something that is worth a damn after a few lackluster levels is surprising really.

Triple Solar Reflection: Previous solar reflections are bumped up by an extra 2d6 and a fourth target may be struck.
Rating: Minion clearing go. go. go. Better pray for that attack to hit tho.

Level 8.

Aurora Break: 8d6 fire damage to all ranged attacks. (Boost)
Rating: Man Fireball wizards that don't daze, must be rather salty that they just can't straight up off some fool can't they? Even if it's fire damage, this is just murder. I give it a meh. Kills things that can't take the heat though.

Solar Hailstorm Stance: When full attacking get two additional attacks and add that initiation modifier to the damage. (Stance)
Rating: Noice. About equal to the other stances though. Makes you murder things better than ever. Now you just make all the rangers envious of your archery prowess.

Solar Wind Tsunami: Deals 15d6+Initiator Level in a cone. Reflex save is DC 18 + Initiation Mod.
Rating: It's like a dragon's breath that isn't fire? Nifty I guess?

Level 9:

Solar Wind Nova: a close ranged burst around a creature that deals 10d6 normal damage and 10d6 fire damage. Reflex save of DC 19 + Initiation Mod for half.
Rating: Pretty pathetic for a grand finalee isn't it? A maximized empowered beefed up fireball is more impressive than this, and that is available 5 levels or so earlier on than this.

Solar Wind. Like a fart in the desert sand. Uninspired with Level 3-4 being the best and reasonable level to invest in. Only a few maneuvers stand out, with decent stances. Overall not a fan. Must look into the other schools though.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Anyone have a particularly huge level of experience with Path of War? I mean, there is probably quite a few stuff that ain't worth it, but is it solid otherwise or not? All I know is that I got a character that dips heavily into the Martial Training for Solar Wind with my Archer Cleric. Does decent damage, but some of it's maneuvers just seem to be kind of meh. Maybe it's because I'm just fighting a lot of beholders and they have arrow reflection crap tho.

I never used Solar Wind, but Broken Blade can be pretty nice for stacking a bunch of damage onto your attacks. Better for shapeshifters who turn into a monster with a big natural attack than a typical monk-type, though.

Veiled moon gives you some fun options, but the damage is often lacking.

Iron Tortoise has an option that lets you block spells targeted at you with your shield (Burnished Shell, level 3 maneuver), which is kind of nice.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I can't get any of the DM's in my group to allow it.

[Rawbeard]

of course not, no DM should ever allow fighter-types to be even remotely viable. now pick up vital strike and swing your stick, hero!

[Orca]

Based on one abortive game, the actual initiating classes get enough different disciplines that you can pick something useful most times, maybe all. It's only if you're trying to do it all via martial training feats that you get stuck with the shit abilities.

[name_here]

You may be selling Feel The Wind short; it also applies against magically created environmental effects. It mentions wind wall, which normally is a GTFO ability towards archers.

[AcidBlades]

You may be selling Feel The Wind short; it also applies against magically created environmental effects. It mentions wind wall, which normally is a GTFO ability towards archers.

Yeah I missed that. Since it's a boost, you get all your good shit onto it. Maybe even Solar Reflection that shit, and just shoot down tones of assholes with it. Good call. I'm not particularly great at analysis, so don't rely on my evaluation too much. I just over-read that, because I just don't like how the pfd20's Path of War's maneuver pages are set up.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

of course not, no DM should ever allow fighter-types to be even remotely viable. now pick up vital strike and swing your stick, hero!

Mostly it's because this group has had problems with players bringing shit in the game without checking with the GM and taking advantage of them not being familiar with it.

[Seerow]

Best thing out of Path of War is the Myrmidon (Fighter Archetype) from Path of War 2. Specifically Myrmidon combined with Martial Master (gives the Brawler floating feat ability).

Myrmidon normally gives you maneuvers picked from 5 of the 'mundane' disciplines up to 6th level (plus Grit just as a bonus), but the real winning feature of that is you get IL = Fighter Level.

Martial Master lets you pick up combat feats on the fly. These combat feats can include Advanced Training, which lets you pick up maneuvers/stances you qualify from. The qualification for these is typically a couple of maneuvers plus Initiator Level. This means at level 17 where you'd normally have a 6th level maneuver, you can use Advanced Training to pick up a pair of 9ths from disciplines you have access to or a 9th from a discipline you normally don't have access to. Most importantly, you are picking these up on the fly. (Last I checked the devs had even confirmed any maneuvers picked up this way would be auto-readied. So no need to waste a round and another feat to get those maneuvers/stances available)

This means as a straight classed Fighter you can pick up pretty much any maneuver in the game whenever you need it; which adds a tremendous amount of versatility. It's mostly going to be combat stuff, but it does mean straight up things like flight, invisibility, incorporeality, etc, aren't going to throw you off ever again because there are pretty low level maneuver/stance options to bypass those and almost any other combat obstacle you can think of, and do it with style. I've been itching to play a Fighter for months since finding the archetype.

[Ferret]

Best thing out of Path of War is the Myrmidon (Fighter Archetype) from Path of War 2. Specifically Myrmidon combined with Martial Master (gives the Brawler floating feat ability).

Myrmidon normally gives you maneuvers picked from 5 of the 'mundane' disciplines up to 6th level (plus Grit just as a bonus), but the real winning feature of that is you get IL = Fighter Level.

Martial Master lets you pick up combat feats on the fly. These combat feats can include Advanced Training, which lets you pick up maneuvers/stances you qualify from. The qualification for these is typically a couple of maneuvers plus Initiator Level. This means at level 17 where you'd normally have a 6th level maneuver, you can use Advanced Training to pick up a pair of 9ths from disciplines you have access to or a 9th from a discipline you normally don't have access to. Most importantly, you are picking these up on the fly. (Last I checked the devs had even confirmed any maneuvers picked up this way would be auto-readied. So no need to waste a round and another feat to get those maneuvers/stances available)

This means as a straight classed Fighter you can pick up pretty much any maneuver in the game whenever you need it; which adds a tremendous amount of versatility. It's mostly going to be combat stuff, but it does mean straight up things like flight, invisibility, incorporeality, etc, aren't going to throw you off ever again because there are pretty low level maneuver/stance options to bypass those and almost any other combat obstacle you can think of, and do it with style. I've been itching to play a Fighter for months since finding the archetype.

That sounds...actually pretty cool. How many maneuvers are there to keep track of?

[Avoraciopoctules]

Damn, really? Okay, I'm buying that book.

[Kaelik]

1) You don't explain the duration of the stunning maneuver, so I have no idea if it is good, but unless the duration is fucking insane, it is basically just objectively worse than the daze ability from 8 levels ago because it's a fort save negates for an effect that is only slightly better (drop items, can be SAed) but with a lot more immunities (elementals, plants, pseudo undead/construct effects that don't protect against fort saves, but do against stun) versus Dazes "Hey do you have a 1 round per level 4 Paladin Spell from the SpC that your might not allow because fuck backwards compatiility? No? Okay, you are dazed now."

2) The cover negating effect probably doesn't work as well as you think it does. I don't know the exact words, but even if the rules are written so shittily that you can pick targets you can't see and don't have line of effect to as the target, "ignoring total cover" does nothing about not having line of sight. Since you don't have line of sight, you can't even know what square they are in, unless you know for some other reason (if they are using tower shield for total cover), and even still, you have a 50% miss chance against them from total concealment.

3) That ignoring weather effects and the daze strike are probably the best things in there, sometime you are going to run into a Druid who slaps down a Hurricane and laughs at you, and then be really surprised when you hit him with 500 damage of ranged attacks right after.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I can answer some of that.

1. The stunning lasts 1d3 rounds. I'd argue that's not a "fucking insane" duration so the rest of your analysis would stand.

2. It is painfully lacking in clarification, but since it is based around making a perception skill check vs. AC it is probably intended that it requires some form of line of sight.

The thing is about the Pathfinder Weaboo Fightan Magic guys is that they do at least listen to the players and actually take criticism unlike the Paizo guys. If you go to either 4chan on the Pathfinder General thread (there's almost always one up), or one of their playtest threads on Giant in the Playground you can make suggestions to them directly if you cared enough to ask (they're working on Weaboo Fightan Magic 2: Electric Boogaloo but they do intend on posting an eratta document after that. Downside is that they're three dudes doing this as a second job so any sort of design or correction is slow).

[Seerow]

Best thing out of Path of War is the Myrmidon (Fighter Archetype) from Path of War 2. Specifically Myrmidon combined with Martial Master (gives the Brawler floating feat ability).

Myrmidon normally gives you maneuvers picked from 5 of the 'mundane' disciplines up to 6th level (plus Grit just as a bonus), but the real winning feature of that is you get IL = Fighter Level.

Martial Master lets you pick up combat feats on the fly. These combat feats can include Advanced Training, which lets you pick up maneuvers/stances you qualify from. The qualification for these is typically a couple of maneuvers plus Initiator Level. This means at level 17 where you'd normally have a 6th level maneuver, you can use Advanced Training to pick up a pair of 9ths from disciplines you have access to or a 9th from a discipline you normally don't have access to. Most importantly, you are picking these up on the fly. (Last I checked the devs had even confirmed any maneuvers picked up this way would be auto-readied. So no need to waste a round and another feat to get those maneuvers/stances available)

This means as a straight classed Fighter you can pick up pretty much any maneuver in the game whenever you need it; which adds a tremendous amount of versatility. It's mostly going to be combat stuff, but it does mean straight up things like flight, invisibility, incorporeality, etc, aren't going to throw you off ever again because there are pretty low level maneuver/stance options to bypass those and almost any other combat obstacle you can think of, and do it with style. I've been itching to play a Fighter for months since finding the archetype.

That sounds...actually pretty cool. How many maneuvers are there to keep track of?

Enough of them that if you don't go through beforehand and make a list of maneuvers you're likely to want for the utility you can really bog the game down, but not so many that it is a huge pain in the ass to spend some time combing through them between sessions.

[AcidBlades]

The thing is about the Pathfinder Weaboo Fightan Magic guys is that they do at least listen to the players and actually take criticism unlike the Paizo guys. If you go to either 4chan on the Pathfinder General thread (there's almost always one up), or one of their playtest threads on Giant in the Playground you can make suggestions to them directly if you cared enough to ask (they're working on Weaboo Fightan Magic 2: Electric Boogaloo but they do intend on posting an eratta document after that. Downside is that they're three dudes doing this as a second job so any sort of design or correction is slow).

I'm aware of that. I regularly chat there when things aren't getting too weeb for my tastes. Currently in the middle of writing a document that criticizes their work, but the way that they have their maneuvers laid out in the pfd20 wiki for some of their maneuvers are a pain in the ass to rifle through, and I aim to make sure that all the factors that I missed, would be caught before hand.

I seriously need a link that compiles all the maneuvers based on what level they are. Instead of the schizophrenic organizational that I see. If such a document doesn't exist, then I'll have to make it myself.

[Seerow]

The thing is about the Pathfinder Weaboo Fightan Magic guys is that they do at least listen to the players and actually take criticism unlike the Paizo guys. If you go to either 4chan on the Pathfinder General thread (there's almost always one up), or one of their playtest threads on Giant in the Playground you can make suggestions to them directly if you cared enough to ask (they're working on Weaboo Fightan Magic 2: Electric Boogaloo but they do intend on posting an eratta document after that. Downside is that they're three dudes doing this as a second job so any sort of design or correction is slow).

I'm aware of that. I regularly chat there when things aren't getting too weeb for my tastes. Currently in the middle of writing a document that criticizes their work, but the way that they have their maneuvers laid out in the pfd20 wiki for some of their maneuvers are a pain in the ass to rifle through, and I aim to make sure that all the factors that I missed, would be caught before hand.

I seriously need a link that compiles all the maneuvers based on what level they are. Instead of the schizophrenic organizational that I see. If such a document doesn't exist, then I'll have to make it myself.

Worth noting: The PoW devs have no control over the layout on d20pfsrd. That's a completely different group of guys doing stuff as a second job. The PoW guys only really have control over their playtest docs and the layout for the PDF/printed book. The playtest docs never seemed bad to me, but I can't speak for the PDF/Book as I haven't gotten around to buying a physical copy yet (and if I could use a PDF I may as well just use the website)

[Axebird]

Maneuvers in the actual book are sorted by level within each discipline.

[Strung Nether]

In regards to PoW:

The idea is nice, but the execution is somewhat off. The strikes, which are balanced around competing with full attacks, are very powerful before full attacks are an option. Not much in the monster manual can survive even one turn to a competently built low level initiator. At higher levels the mobility powers come online, making it incredibly easy to consistently deliver full attacks. This means that strikes just aren't used, and there is still very little in the game that can stand up to a well build character.

It's a nice idea, but they do too much damage at all levels of play, and strikes transition from always used to never used at around level 7 or 8.

They claim to be working on fixing it, but I think that the issue lies in how full attacks work in pathfinder, and I don't really think there is much they can do about it. Interestingly enough, not allowing initiatiors to make full attacks is a really good fix for high level play. It doesn't fix the 2d6+1.5*str+1d6+2d6 damage lines they can deliver at level 1 though.

[Kaelik]

In regards to PoW:

The idea is nice, but the execution is somewhat off. The strikes, which are balanced around competing with full attacks, are very powerful before full attacks are an option. Not much in the monster manual can survive even one turn to a competently built low level initiator. At higher levels the mobility powers come online, making it incredibly easy to consistently deliver full attacks. This means that strikes just aren't used, and there is still very little in the game that can stand up to a well build character.

It's a nice idea, but they do too much damage at all levels of play, and strikes transition from always used to never used at around level 7 or 8.

They claim to be working on fixing it, but I think that the issue lies in how full attacks work in pathfinder, and I don't really think there is much they can do about it. Interestingly enough, not allowing initiatiors to make full attacks is a really good fix for high level play. It doesn't fix the 2d6+1.5*str+1d6+2d6 damage lines they can deliver at level 1 though.

It sure looks to me like if they can't make full attacks they might as well literally go die in a ditch and stop wasting my time if they are archers, based on the summary of that path.

[name_here]

What are the rules on strikes, anyway? I haven't been able to find the definitions for the maneuver, boost, and strike keywords on the pfsrd.

[Strung Nether]

What are the rules on strikes, anyway? I haven't been able to find the definitions for the maneuver, boost, and strike keywords on the pfsrd.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/systems-and-use

[Strung Nether]

FOr a further example, broken blade is regarded as one of the most "in need of re-working" styles in PoW.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/dis ... -maneuvers

It isn't too bad if you limit yourself to only unarmed attacks, but most of these work fine with certain weapons.

Things like this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/dis ... rry-strike mean that anything you actually fight ends up insta-dead, especially at level 6 when you get that strike. Combine it with a boost such as http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/dis ... bronze-knu for crazy overkill levels of damage.

[Kaelik]

I think the point can easily be summarized that level 5-6 is an inappropriate time to give someone with literally zero fucking investment a Hasted Whirling Frenzy Pounce with the same damage as a level 5 Rogue SA, except without having to deny dex.

I feel like a fucking 10 year old should have been able to figure this shit out.

[AcidBlades]

Keep in mind that he didn't even say anything about the basic-ass level 1 Stance that gives all of your unarmed attacks 1d6. And the fact that the broken blade also adds 2 more damage ontop of that.

Otherwise the school sucks ass for dicking around with regular ass combat maneuvers without really helping much.

[Ferret]

Things like this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/dis ... rry-strike mean that anything you actually fight ends up insta-dead, especially at level 6 when you get that strike. Combine it with a boost such as http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/dis ... bronze-knu for crazy overkill levels of damage.

0_0

You're not kidding. For those too lazy to click through, Steel Flurry Strike says Make 3 attacks, all at Full-BAB-minus-2. Each successful strike deals normal damage +3D6. The swift-action boost then adds +2D6 to all successful attacks that round. So, yeah, you're pretty much instagibbing level appropriate enemies if you can get to them. You're like a living fireball.