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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle »

What RPG's out there have mechanical support for rape?
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Post by Meikle641 »

Probably FATAL.
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Post by Prak »

Any which have grapple and/or mind control rules.
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Post by Prak »

Suppose you made zombies(D&D 3.5) carriers of warp touch, what would that do to the CR, or is it just a straight up terrible idea? What if the entire party is ranged combatants?
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Post by Korwin »

OgreBattle wrote:What RPG's out there have mechanical support for rape?
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50731
Last edited by Korwin on Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Red_Rob wrote: I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mayans had a prophecy about what would happen if Frank and PL ever agreed on something. PL will argue with Frank that the sky is blue or grass is green, so when they both separately piss on your idea that is definitely something to think about.
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Post by radthemad4 »

So, in D&D, IME, people always seem to always take lesser plane touched races, if available, the new races in Tome (Races of War) (e.g. Aasimar, Tiefling and I saw a Hobgoblin once) or humans when they're not going for some particular racial substitution level.

Should elves, dwarves, halflings, half elves, gnomes, etc. get some sort of upgrade to be more likely to be picked? Well, there are some good elf subraces, the strongheart halfling, the Dragonlance gnome, and maybe some others, but half elf fans seem to be out of luck (I'd probably treat these like Alternate Racial traits instead of having a setting have 10000 officially recognized subtypes).
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Post by ishy »

My usual houserules for races:
No ability score bonuses (but greatly increased point buy to account for classes not getting a bonus on their main stat).
Whatever racials you as a player want and feel are balanced.
Talk to me if you want to do something exceptional (say if a player wants a race to have some defining feature, that I need to implement in the campaign or if a player wants to play a vampire or something like that)
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Post by tussock »

At some point long in the past a whole bunch of games figured out the way you price racial bonuses is just to make that race buy all those bonuses with the normal character-building engine.

D&D 3 is flexible enough that you can write up some skills and feats and just have players guided to pick the right ones with their bonus 1st level feat and low level skills to be whatever kind of elf they want to be. Stats are just where Dorfs have a max Con of 20 and max Cha of 16, and every character gets +2 and -2 wherever they want after stat buy, so you can still play a Dorf Bard if you really want to (by buying a 14 Cha and putting +2 in it to max it out).

Ideally the classes would have a few more options and you could put some of the racial stuff there too, but I guess that's what we have Prestige Classes for..
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Post by Korwin »

radthemad4 wrote:So, in D&D, IME, people always seem to always take lesser plane touched races, if available, the new races in Tome (Races of War) (e.g. Aasimar, Tiefling and I saw a Hobgoblin once) or humans when they're not going for some particular racial substitution level.
If you Play without Polymorph, Lesser Aasimar and Tiefling will be selected far less...
Red_Rob wrote: I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mayans had a prophecy about what would happen if Frank and PL ever agreed on something. PL will argue with Frank that the sky is blue or grass is green, so when they both separately piss on your idea that is definitely something to think about.
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Post by Kaelik »

tussock wrote:At some point long in the past a whole bunch of games figured out the way you price racial bonuses is just to make that race buy all those bonuses with the normal character-building engine.

D&D 3 is flexible enough that you can write up some skills and feats and just have players guided to pick the right ones with their bonus 1st level feat and low level skills to be whatever kind of elf they want to be. Stats are just where Dorfs have a max Con of 20 and max Cha of 16, and every character gets +2 and -2 wherever they want after stat buy, so you can still play a Dorf Bard if you really want to (by buying a 14 Cha and putting +2 in it to max it out).

Ideally the classes would have a few more options and you could put some of the racial stuff there too, but I guess that's what we have Prestige Classes for..
That is literally the dumbest and worst possible race system that could even possibly exist.

1) Let me be clear, no one ever, in the history of the goddam universe, pick dwarves because they really wanted Stonecunning, Stability, +1 to hit on goblins, and +4 AC against giants and a bonus on poison saves. They pick Dwarves either a) for the flavor, b) because they want a con bonus, were planning on wearing heavy armor, Darkvision, and hey fuck it, bonus against spell DCs!

Racial abilities are grouped as a set of abilities that reinforce the fluff of the race, and that are balanced only because you have to take all of them. If you take away all the dwarf abilities but let people buy back into them with points that can a) be used to buy other things, and b) dwarf abilities can be bought on other races, then what you have done is guaranteed that everyone gets +2 to saves against spells, all people with heavy armor get Dwarf movement in heavy armor, every race has Darkvision 60ft (unless I can buy drow 120ft! in which case every player has that!) and then all the Wizards buy Wizard things and the Rogues buy Rogues things, and everyone is basically just picking more class abilities to go with their class. No race has unique abilities aside from stats, so you basically just lose all the fluff related to races as they all become ditto races. But on the plus side, it looks like everyone is playing the same super race but with bonus class abilities. Oh wait, that also sounds dumb.

2) But at least you kept racial maximums, so still 100% of Wizards are elves and 100% of Barbarians are Orcs, and 100% of Druids and Clerics are Buoman or Lesser Aasimar! Oh wait, that is also terrible. Being a 20 Int Wizard is just super objectively better than being a 16 Int Wizard, literally every time. If you aren't even getting any actual racial abilities in exchange for a race choice that just objectively makes you worse at the thing you actually do at every level from 1-20 why would you ever fucking do that?

TL;DR: You are basically advocating the shitty terrible Pathfinder Advanced Races Build your own race system that was terrible, is terrible, and just factually can never not be terrible. We made fun of that on this forum for a bunch of reasons, and all of those still apply to your dumb idea.

Let's say it together class "Tussock is always wrong about everything, forever."
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Post by Kaelik »

radthemad4 wrote:So, in D&D, IME, people always seem to always take lesser plane touched races, if available, the new races in Tome (Races of War) (e.g. Aasimar, Tiefling and I saw a Hobgoblin once) or humans when they're not going for some particular racial substitution level.

Should elves, dwarves, halflings, half elves, gnomes, etc. get some sort of upgrade to be more likely to be picked? Well, there are some good elf subraces, the strongheart halfling, the Dragonlance gnome, and maybe some others, but half elf fans seem to be out of luck (I'd probably treat these like Alternate Racial traits instead of having a setting have 10000 officially recognized subtypes).
Let me solve this problem for you:

1) Name a Core Race that doesn't have a con penalty and does have a bonus to a casting stat.
2) Oh wait, Lesser Tiefling and Lesser Aasimar both have racial bonuses to all the casting stats between them. And no minuses to anything except Cha on a Wizard Race, much less Con.

The problem is that the PHB races are basically written under the assumption that no one would ever want a bonus to their casting stat, and the lesser planetouched, literally every single one, has a bonus to at least one casting stat.

PHB races are written like shit by shitty designers who didn't realize what people would want. Then lesser planetouched were basically just written as "power creep" for people who want to play races with a bonus to casting stats. PHB races don't need "more" in fact, if you slapped +2 Wisdom on a Dwarf, even despite their 20ft movespeed they might instantly become the only race that any Wis based caster ever takes.

What you need to do, if you really care, is modify them by realizing what classes people actually play, and making the races work for some of those. Strongheart Halfling is the "Perfect" Rogue races, because of Halfling Rogue sub levels, all the bonuses to things a Rogue wants, and a feat, since Rogues are feat intensive. Whisper Gnomes are the "Perfect" Stealth race.

You can't ask "why does no one play these races?" You have to ask "What classes are going to play these races, and does anyone want to play those classes?" and "Hey, what is the standard race for this class that I want this race to be used for, and how does it compare." If your race has a Dex or Con penalty, or it doesn't have an Int bonus, no Wizard is ever going to take it ever, because they can just have an Int bonus at the low low cost of a -2 Cha. Your race needs to offer a fuck lot of shit before I even think about taking it over that.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by tussock »

Kaelik, what people do in 3e is play Whisper Gnomes, Grey Elves, Grey Orcs, or whatever other thing hands out the best racial package (like all the badtouched), and never plays a Dorf Bard at all because that's fucking stupid (on so many levels).

Packages are this wonderful theory that the designers won't fuck them up and you won't have to line-item ban the broken ones to keep the group sane, won't have to hot-fix the crap ones some newb wants to play for the art, and you'll also be able to play more than one class with a Dorf and not suck. But then some ass of a designer likes the idea of Whisper Gnomes and here we are with the racial packages real games come with.

When players can just pick nice things for their Dorf, they do that, and it's not a bad thing. If you like packages so much, you can still have them in the game, built with the basic feats and skills, and some of them will still be terrible and go out of date as the game goes on.
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Post by Kaelik »

tussock wrote:Kaelik, what people do in 3e is play Whisper Gnomes, Grey Elves, Grey Orcs, or whatever other thing hands out the best racial package (like all the badtouched), and never plays a Dorf Bard at all because that's fucking stupid (on so many levels).
... So Dwarf bards suck because 16 Charisma doesn't work, and people only play Grey Elf Wizards because 20 Int is the greatest... and your solution is to KEEP these things!

Solution: Don't make 16 Cha a maximum for some races and 20 for others, because then PCs will only play races with 20 as Sorcerers, and 16 ones are shit. The solution is literally the exact opposite of what you suggested regarding attribute packages.
tussock wrote:Packages are this wonderful theory that the designers won't fuck them up and you won't have to line-item ban the broken ones to keep the group sane, won't have to hot-fix the crap ones some newb wants to play for the art, and you'll also be able to play more than one class with a Dorf and not suck. But then some ass of a designer likes the idea of Whisper Gnomes and here we are with the racial packages real games come with.
Look, no human being alive cares even the slightest bit what your system is if you start with the assumption that you will just make terrible rules and they will suck.

The point of packages is that the packages can be balance against each other, and each package will contain fluff abilities that are not that strong and no one will ever take if they can be picked individually. That is the point of packages.

You are seriously complaining about how all Rogues will be Whispher Gnomes (Or strongheart halflings) and all Wizards will be Grey Elves (Or Tieflings). But you are advocating an actual system were everyone just writes the name of whatever single race has a higher attribute cap for the stat they care about, and then they have SR 11, 120ft Darkvision. Because no one is ever going to spend resources they could spend on powerful abilities like that instead on shitty things like Stonecunning.

So what you are saying, is that you wish Rogues weren't Whispergnomes and Wizards weren't Grey Elves, so instead you advocate a system where all Rogues are Halflings, but they have no racial halfling traits and instead they are really drow, and all Wizards are Grey Elves but instead of racial elven traits they are all drow. BECAUSE EVERYONE IS A DROW! Because SR 11, and 120ft Darkvision are super fucking sweet, and everything else you could ever buy with your race aside from racial attribute bonuses is FUCKING GARBAGE next to the power of pseudo-drow.
tussock wrote:When players can just pick nice things for their Dorf, they do that, and it's not a bad thing. If you like packages so much, you can still have them in the game, built with the basic feats and skills, and some of them will still be terrible and go out of date as the game goes on.
If your goal is to allow every player to just always choose the same race no matter what type of character they are going to play, you can do that. It's pretty stupid, but you can do that.

BUT THEN YOU NEED TO MAKE ATTRIBUTE CAPS CHANGING WITH RACE DIE IN A FIRE.

Saying "You can still have packages, but people won't use them" is fucking pointless. The point of packages is that it is a LIMITATION. Saying "You can choose to cast only 5 spells a day with your infinite spell Wizard" is FUCKING BULLSHIT.

Packages are a limitation system, they are fundamentally incompatible with a "no limitation" system.

TL;DR:

If your goal is to have race be a meaningless decision that has no effects on character builds at all, the race changes to attribute caps need to go the fuck away. And you will then discover that the obvious conclusion is that race is meaningless, so all your players will all play the same actual race with different names, because no matter what system you use, there will be one objectively best collection of abilities. The only difference is that you can call the super package different names.

If your goal is for races to have an effect on character build, but there to be multiple viable race choices for each class or build, then you need to balance multiple races for the same class, which means fundamentally that you have to have packages of abilities, because otherwise there is no such thing as multiple races at all. You may also want attribute caps to go away in this system too. You may not.

There is literally nothing even possibly good that can come from forcing all Wizards to be Grey Elves, but then letting them choose to have zero elf abilities, while being a more powerful Wizard instead is not an upgrade over either system.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Schleiermacher »

Packages are a limitation system, they are fundamentally incompatible with a "no limitation" system.
Yes and no. There's no point in packages if you don't force people to take them to represent the things they are meant to describe. But you can (and should) impose campaign-spesific limitations on character generation in no-limitation systems, because most of those are more accurately described as "toolbox" systems and if you're not limiting yourself to an appropriate subset of the toolbox you have chaos (see GURPS, M&M, HERO etc etc.) So what I (perhaps naively) assumed Tussock meant, is that you force everyone to take a package which you have made by pre-building it with the regular character design system, and thus achieving better balance by all the racial packages being at the same point (or whatever) value and roughly the same level of optimization.

Like this:

Elf
+2 Dex -2 Con, maximum 20 Dex and 16 Con [0 points]
Low-light vision [1 point]
Immunity to sleep [2 points]
Immunity to aging [1 point]

Dwarf
+2 Con -2 Dex, maximum 16 Dex and 20 Con [0 points]
Darkvision [2 points]
Resistance to poison [1 point]
Stonecunning [1 point]

Human
Maximum 18 in all ability scores. You can't have any of that Darkvision, Stonecunning and Sleep Immunity stuff, but you have 4 more points free to buy skills and feats with. Enjoy.
Last edited by Schleiermacher on Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

Schleiermacher wrote:So what I (perhaps naively) assumed Tussock meant, is that you force everyone to take a package which you have made by pre-building it with the regular character design system, and thus achieving better balance by all the racial packages being at the same point (or whatever) value and roughly the same level of optimization.
Based on what he actually wrote, I don't believe Tussock meant that but in any case, asking each and every DM to make balanced races from your points system while at the same time declaring that the point system is not itself balanced, and you have to do your own balancing is basically just declaring that you are allergic to making an actual system, so pls do our work for us.
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Post by Schleiermacher »

GURPS is probably balanced enough that there could be a cyborg gorilla guerilla in my high-fantasy wuxia game, but that doesn't mean I want one. At the same time, I would like all the Tengu characters to have the same Tengu traits, and for those to not be obviously better or worse than the traits people playing Nezumi and humans get to buy. To me, this seems like a job for packages in a system that in its most permissive form is anything-goes.

Does that clarify my position?
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Post by Kaelik »

Schleiermacher wrote:GURPS is probably balanced enough that there could be a cyborg gorilla guerilla in my high-fantasy wuxia game, but that doesn't mean I want one. At the same time, I would like all the Tengu characters to have the same Tengu traits, and for those to not be obviously better or worse than the traits people playing Nezumi and humans get to buy. To me, this seems like a job for packages in a system that in its most permissive form is anything-goes.

Does that clarify my position?
Not even the slightest bit. If you think GURPS is balanced in literally any sense at all, I'm basically living in an alternate universe form you. I don't even know what you mean when you say "a job for packages in a system that in its most permissive form is anything goes." Why does a system have to be anything goes before the limitations, as D&D amply demonstrates, you can just design the packages without designing a completely permissible system that no one is allowed to ever use first.
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Post by DSMatticus »

tussock wrote:D&D 3 is flexible enough that you can write up some skills and feats and just have players guided to pick the right ones with their bonus 1st level feat and low level skills to be whatever kind of elf they want to be.
tussock wrote:Packages are this wonderful theory that the designers won't fuck them up and you won't have to line-item ban the broken ones to keep the group sane, won't have to hot-fix the crap ones some newb wants to play for the art, and you'll also be able to play more than one class with a Dorf and not suck. But then some ass of a designer likes the idea of Whisper Gnomes and here we are with the racial packages real games come with.

When players can just pick nice things for their Dorf, they do that, and it's not a bad thing. If you like packages so much, you can still have them in the game, built with the basic feats and skills, and some of them will still be terrible and go out of date as the game goes on.
Tussock is specifically arguing against packages in favor of players building their own race out of their own character generation resources and then maybe kind-of-sort-of having some "here is the typical way to build a dwarf" sample write-ups that are complete and total trap options because they waste points on shit like stonecunning. It's really explicit. Except he's also talking about keeping racial stat caps for some reason, so 99% of the reason people play the races they do sticks, so I'm not sure what the point is.

But also, if you force players to select a race from a list of pre-built packages (as Schleiermacher is suggesting), then you are doing the exact same D&D already does (which Schleiermacher is supposed to be suggesting an alternative to?). That is an identical design scheme with identical problems.
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Post by Antariuk »

Does somebody know if there were 3E issues of Dungeon magazine dealing with aquatic environments and character options?
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Post by Prak »

Don't know about Dungeon, but Dragon had a lot of articles about aquatic adventuring, 290 has an article by Skip Williams for 3e, and 343 has one about fighting aquatic creatures by Hal Maclean, plus lots of articles for older editions that might be good mines for ideas, but more work to actually use.
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Post by Antariuk »

Er... Dragon magazine was what I meant, sorry. Thanks for the pointers!
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Post by Prak »

No worries. I'd bet that there are some bits and pieces in Dungeon, too, but I don't know for certain.
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You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Wiseman »

Would it affect game balance too much if the values for a disbelieved shadow illusion were always just 50%? All those other calculations would take way too much time to adjucate at a game table.
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Post by OgreBattle »

What tabletop games use 2d6 as their RNG? I figure it'd be good for a Necromunda/Mordheim kind of skirmish game.
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Post by Orca »

Most versions of Traveller use 2d6 as the main RNG. I'm not sure their combat systems are great though.
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