Table Top Industry Defeatism

[angelfromanotherpin]

There's been a lot of talk on this board about how relatively easy it would be to do a better Call of Cthulhu game; the licensing issues are minimal and producing something better than the BRP mess is almost inevitable. At the same time, it's an established IP with a lot of recognition and traction in the gamer scene.

To get from text to product, you could try Kickstarter, but I'd probably send a proposal to FFG, try to have them provide their crazy stable of art from their own Lovecraft properties, as well as marketing apparatus, production values, distribution, etc. You could use the d6/TN5 resolution system from Shadowrun Arkham/Eldritch Horror as extra appeal to people who play those games.

Some of the target audience is locked up in their BRP mindcaulk echo chamber, and it'll be challenging to get them out. But people who have tried Trail of Cthulhu will check it out, and people who play the FFG board and card games will as well. I honestly don't know if it could be a hit, but I think it's as good a shot as anything would have. And if it does take off, then you have credibility and momentum for your next project.

[Almaz]

Inflation has gone up sure, but the cost of producing books I suspect hasn't stayed the same. At the very least it's become easier to actually layout the content (not necessarily *well* mind you) due to advancing computer software options.

That, plus the explosion of *dirt cheap* printing in China (this is starting to go away but from about 2000-2013 or so China was insanely cheap) you shouldn't have seen the jump from 30 bucks to 60 the way you did.

Yeah, I was just noting that one shouldn't necessarily expect the values to return to $25 a corebook if someone tries to drop the prices now. Shipping costs, rising wages, and inflation conspire to make things more unstable in pricing. The good thing now is that if someone asks for a $35 corebook, though, they'll still be asking for about the same amount of money. The problem is finding things that are the same value.

[Kaelik]

4th edition D&D was simply bad and delivered very poor sales because of that, which caused future releases to have much smaller operating budgets and be even worse.

Let's not go crazy here. 5E isn't even a game, and is a pile of ass flavored ass, but at least it isn't 4e.

[DSMatticus]

Am I supposed to see anything wrong with that comic strip? And I'm quite sure that whatever racist caricatures of Japanese soldiers US propaganda, particularly in a tame medium like comic books, was able to come up with, ended up a good deal less repulsive than actual Japanese soldiers.

Yeah, those dirty Japs amirite? Xenophobic civilian murdering savages, the lot of them.

Not like proper Americans, who... uhh... well okay I mean there was all the racist propaganda and the internment camps and the civilian bombings, but do those really count?

Or Germans, who... oh boy. You know, I'm sure that whole Holocaust thing is just one big exaggeration.

Or Soviets who... uhh... mass rape isn't murder, technically, so really if you think about it the point stands.

The fact that you must resort to a strawman this blatant shows that you are perfectly aware of the political agenda in current comics. You're just agreeing with it.

Note I'm not actually strawmanning you, you're just offended that I'm paraphrasing your position in a way that makes your bigotry as blatantly offensive as it is. The "political agenda" behind making Thor a woman (and Captain America black) is that "women and minorities can and should serve as leading roles equal to white men in popular entertainment," and you apparently do not agree with that political agenda.

Now, you can complain that Marvel is only beating the progressive drum as part of a cash grab, which is almost certainly true because they are a corporation and that is how a corporation do. But that does not involve whining about "propaganda."

[Ravengm]

How much of TTRPG decline can be attributed to the "golden age" for board games? From a casual player standpoint, something like Descent has a lot of pluses going on for it: single-session commitment (but still able to span multiple sessions), lower total play-time per session, rules explanation and setup is minimal compared to chargen for a lot of TTRPGs, explicit and definitive rules cover interactions between the "MC" and the players (including leveling and loot). It seems like getting into D&D is more of a fanatic's choice that wants the ability to freeform by comparison.

Part of it also seems to stem from the ability to introduce people to the hobby, since board games assume a much smaller amount of prior cultural knowledge about the game than TTRPGs.

I live near a few quite large gaming stores, and almost all of them cater to Magic and cafe-style board game experiences. They have rentable rooms and LFG boards for RPGs, but it's definitely more of an afterthought.

[silva]

How much of TTRPG decline can be attributed to the "golden age" for board games? From a casual player standpoint, something like Descent has a lot of pluses going on for it: single-session commitment (but still able to span multiple sessions), lower total play-time per session, rules explanation and setup is minimal compared to chargen for a lot of TTRPGs, explicit and definitive rules cover interactions between the "MC" and the players (including leveling and loot). It seems like getting into D&D is more of a fanatic's choice that wants the ability to freeform by comparison.

Part of it also seems to stem from the ability to introduce people to the hobby, since board games assume a much smaller amount of prior cultural knowledge about the game than TTRPGs.

I live near a few quite large gaming stores, and almost all of them cater to Magic and cafe-style board game experiences. They have rentable rooms and LFG boards for RPGs, but it's definitely more of an afterthought.

This was always the norm. RPG is a fringe market which will keep being obfuscated by cardgames/boardgames/videogames.

It could be worse though. Just look at the wargames market.

[name_here]

When it comes to discussing narratives for the decline in comic book sales, I feel it is important to point out that comic book sales have been rising and not falling.

[K]

How much of TTRPG decline can be attributed to the "golden age" for board games? From a casual player standpoint, something like Descent has a lot of pluses going on for it: single-session commitment (but still able to span multiple sessions), lower total play-time per session, rules explanation and setup is minimal compared to chargen for a lot of TTRPGs, explicit and definitive rules cover interactions between the "MC" and the players (including leveling and loot). It seems like getting into D&D is more of a fanatic's choice that wants the ability to freeform by comparison.

Part of it also seems to stem from the ability to introduce people to the hobby, since board games assume a much smaller amount of prior cultural knowledge about the game than TTRPGs.

I live near a few quite large gaming stores, and almost all of them cater to Magic and cafe-style board game experiences. They have rentable rooms and LFG boards for RPGs, but it's definitely more of an afterthought.

The learning curve and time investment in learning a new RPG is certainly a deciding factor on "we have three hours. What can we play?"

There are even some boardgames where my friends and I bang our heads against for a few hours and then never pick up again because the game isn't delivering enough fun to justify learning it and teaching it.

The popularity of any game has always seemed to be a combination of how hard it is to get into the game and how original the setting is. Vampire was a really fresh take on RPGing because people either were tired of playing dwarves and elves or were never that interested to begin with, while DnD 3e seemed to let you port in a big chunk of your 2e DnD knowledge with a minimum of new rules to learn.

I think the reason the Rules-lite revolution has been confined to the backwaters of the Internet is that it's hard to get into. I own a copy of Fate and still can't actually tell you what an adventure should look like, what a character should be able to do, and how most things are supposed to work. That's a pretty big barrier to entry.

So for the TL;DR summary, I think any new RPG with hopes of being popular really needs to stop catering to the grognard fetishists by making super-complex games with tons of trap options to learn and dismiss AND avoid the freeform fetishists who don't realize that "you can do anything!" is not a game that people are willing to show for up after a day at work because its a lot of pressure for something that mostly doesn't work.

[Kaelik]

What K said. The MM is the most important book in D&D, and I don't care about literally any other part of your game if you don't have one.

[RadiantPhoenix]

What K said. The MM is the most important book in D&D, and I don't care about literally any other part of your game if you don't have one.

Would you say that a sensible release order is MM -> PHB -> DMG ?

[silva]

I think the reason the Rules-lite revolution has been confined to the backwaters of the Internet is that it's hard to get into. I own a copy of Fate and still can't actually tell you what an adventure should look like, what a character should be able to do, and how most things are supposed to work. That's a pretty big barrier to entry.

Fate is not rules-light at all.

Risus, Barbarians of Lemuria, Cthulhu Dark, Lady Blackbird, etc are rules-light. If you find it hard to get into then you got some serious cognitive problems, pal.

[Kaelik]

What K said. The MM is the most important book in D&D, and I don't care about literally any other part of your game if you don't have one.

Would you say that a sensible release order is MM -> PHB -> DMG ?

If you have a D&D structure, they should all come out at the same time. The MM being first isn't helpful in pretty much any way, but the point is that I am infinity times more happy running a game in which I can look through a MM, and pull out adversaries, and say "This guys wants to do X, and he will try to do it with Y, and the players will have to beat him with Z or A or B" than I am looking at a giant accounting mess of PB abilities, and being told "Design your own monsters! TOTAL FREEDOM!"

In D&D I can also use crazy templates, and make NPCs, and do all that shit, but just having the ability to write encounters down in my module planning as "aboleth in pool above, Shebbolath pulls lever to release water and then walls in with ice" is infinity better than having to design the characters myself to do things before every single fight. The BBEG should probably be a specific thing that you planned around, but some encounters should really just be "and then the party turned the corner and found a beholder" which is way better when there is a beholder written and it has noticeable differences from other monsters, instead of you just designing another monster yourself.

[Pixels]

I would say a sensible release order is all three at once. When I buy a game I want to be able to play it. I simply am not interested until the company has finished dribbling out the pieces I need to create characters and put together a world with challenges for those players.

[vagrant]

I think, honestly, people find the whole idea of 'lug around shittons of hardcovers you and your friends need to have in part or in whole' is a pretty outmoded way of socialising, even for geeks. There is no way to have a breakout TTRPG without a heavy digital component (even if its just an app on your phone). I'm honestly convinced by this, because people will want wiki-style hyperlinked rules and not fucking PDFs, they want online support if people don't wanna see each other in person, they want charsheets easily editable and not on printed paper...Basically, they probably want a 21st century RPG that acknowledges the major technological advances we possess.

I'm positive there's a market for this. People still love freeform RP. They theoretically would love something that let's them improv-RP but makes conflict resolution a fun game. But no one wants to carry around books and paper. Dice, probably, because throwing physical dice is fun, but I honestly cannot see an RPG reaching Vampire or 3.5 levels of popularity in this century without having a heavy digital presence and/or reliance.

[erik]

I'd say you don't necessarily need an entire MM first, but you do need an adequate rogues gallery along with the first book. Like 3e released the first printing PHB with zombies, skeletons, orcs, hell hounds, ghouls and a red dragon. Just enough to do some intro adventures and a teaser of what bigger things to come.

if doing a staggered release anyway, and if you want those 3 books. A DM's guide is by far the most optional of books and may be omitted entirely if you flesh enough out in your core book and expansions.

Core book -> Foes -> Setting/player expansions > Setting/player expansions > Setting/player expansions, etc.

[darkmaster]

Okay DMS we get it, you're an idiot. Because as you pointed out the political stand behind making thor a womyn and captain america black is "give us your money!!!!!!111ONEONEONE11!!!" And secondly because, by saying the way to show that women and minorities can be main character equal to white men, is to change a preexisting character is saying "we want female and minority heroes but don't think they can succeed on their own merits so please have them ride on the coat tails of successful white male characters." Which is not only patronizing in the extreme but pretty retarded, which you would realize if you actually ever read comics and realized that there have been plenty minority and female characters in comic books who have been really successful.

And it's not like Female Thor couldn't have worked, it just would have had to be well written. But instead, nop, lazy retconn.

[vagrant]

Female thor is actually not a retcon and read the actual comics you sexist fuck? There's a well-written arc to why the Odinson stops being able to wield the hammer and the girl takes over.

[darkmaster]

Oh no I got called a sexist I'm so saaaaaaad... I'm not actually sad.

[Darth Rabbitt]

Guys, we have a separate topic for the comic thing now.

[Grek]

Fuck off darkmaster this thread isn't about comics, its about RPGs.

[OgreBattle]

So finish up After Sundown, get some artists and marketing, and make a splash.

On the topic of folks publishing their own independent works... what are the steps needed to do so? It'd be handy to have a guide for it covering topics like...

-Cost of paying content creators, editing, art, design
-Cost of actually publishing physical copies
-Places to sell PDF copies
-How do you get the word out? Cost of marketing

[PhoneLobster]

So finish up After Sundown, get some artists and marketing, and make a splash.

On the topic of folks publishing their own independent works... what are the steps needed to do so? It'd be handy to have a guide for it covering topics like...

-Cost of paying content creators, editing, art, design
-Cost of actually publishing physical copies
-Places to sell PDF copies
-How do you get the word out? Cost of marketing

Considering that the earlier post about searchable online, and ideally free, reference materials being THE number one requirement for success in the modern era, your list is all wrong and backwards.

And also monetization becomes a big deal because ultimately you aren't, at least initially releasing a product many people will pay much for, you are, ideally, basically releasing an SRD website as your primary product.

The path to success probably goes, free online SRD website, bunch of cheap but genuinely awesome phone/tablet apps for character sheets and improved SRD access/tools, THEN eventually physical copies for hardcore fans.

Getting the word out probably involves filthy filthy conventions and otherwise attempting to convert actual people to your new cult in person.

Now as for profit? Probably not, if you made it big enough apps and merchandising (and yes, the physical books these days are also basically just merchandising) would potentially be fairly big, but unless you actually succeeded in being the next d20 I doubt it would amount to much of anything profit wise.

[Almaz]

I've heard a loooot of developers making it on "free core, pay supplements, and an OK marketing campaign." You need more -- better marketing, good art, etc. -- to have a really big thing, but that seems to be the 21st century pattern of success.

[Username17]

I think, honestly, people find the whole idea of 'lug around shittons of hardcovers you and your friends need to have in part or in whole' is a pretty outmoded way of socialising, even for geeks.

I think we can all agree that RPG books are too big and heavy. For fuck's sake the Dresden Files RPG is supposedly a "ruleslite" and it is two books that are over four hundred pages each. That's fucking absurd. The size and weight of those things is ridiculous. But that's a shovelware problem. Just because advances in digital word processing, text layout, and printing have made page bloat easy doesn't mean that it's good. People today read more than people did a generation ago, but an RPG shelf breaker of today is more than triple the page length of a 1990s sourcebook and has more text per page. Text bloat has increased the average size of a core book from about 120k words to over 400k words, and supplements have increased from about 60k words to about 200k words. It's too much.

But the reality is that geeks do get together with backpacks full of paper. Card Games and Board Games are not dying. Hell Magic alone is doing like a quarter billion a year in total sales. While I don't think it's reasonable to ask people to flip through a 400 page tome at the table, especially if it doesn't have good indexing, carrying a backpack full of paper products around to play games with friends and new acquaintances is in fact exactly what Geeks are doing by the tens of millions.

Yes, wiki-style searchable rules apps would be very nice. They'd be even better if they were kept up to date as new materials were released. It's a notable point in Magic's favor over Force of Will that when you have a Magic question like "can you respond to the +1/+1 token from a Megamorph?" you can get the answer that you cannot very quickly on your phone, while when you have a Force of Will question like "Can Absolute Cake Zone stop Excalibur?" it is very difficult to find the answer that it can. But the digital revolution we have been promised is still in the future. Actual physical games made out of paper that you carry around in backpacks have not gone out of fashion and have not been replaced by electronic software.

-Username17

[DSMatticus]

Personally, I think I'm hilarious and improve every thread I derail and also my shit has never once stunk, but since the general consensus is pretty clear I will go tell darkmaster he's a fucking idiot in that other thread.