Lo5R will be a LCG now

[sandmann]

That's great; can you now explain what is racist in L5R?

Your answer is literally one post before that post.

EDIT: Ok, he answered in his next post. Fair.

[virgil]

The fact that the supposedly good empire you're working for has Eta in it. Eta is a Japanese word meaning "N*gger" and refers to the historically discriminated against Burakumin people who were legally emancipated in 1871 and continue to face social (if no longer legal) discrimination to this day.

Page reference please, I have no idea what you are talking about and some context would be nice. What you are doing is no different thatn if someone said that Quentin Tarntino is a racist because in Pulp Fiction he refers to a black character as a '[EDITED]'.

So the book, though I'm waiting for page references, mentions a word that is a racist epithet. Ok, so what? Context please.

Have you read any of L5R? You need to have your hand held on the claim that there are eta in the setting, including sides that are presented as good? Are you some kind of lazy inversion of the gish gallop, where you throw doubt and question on every datum presented?

[erik]

And if put on the spot to defend that the game is not racist, you know whistler's response is going to be "I haven't made that claim."

[angelfromanotherpin]

Frank's comparison between the burakumin and African-Americans is quite apt. The burakumin were non-citizen residents in Japan, legally 'worth 1/7 of an ordinary person,' and forced to do terrible labor until they were officially-but-only-kind-of-actually liberated in 1871. The descendants of those people who were liberated still face all kinds of entrenched prejudice to this day. The word 'eta,' which literally translates to 'an abundance of filth,' is unambiguously derogatory. The text in L5R blithely uses it as if it weren't a loaded word. On page 26 of the main rulebook, the term is used six times in two paragraphs.

Quentin Tarantino movies frequently portray racist people in a racist society, so it's not surprising that they use racist language. That is very different from a supposedly neutral authorial voice explaining a setting using racist language to describe people in the setting.

[ghost whistler]

The fact that the supposedly good empire you're working for has Eta in it. Eta is a Japanese word meaning "N*gger" and refers to the historically discriminated against Burakumin people who were legally emancipated in 1871 and continue to face social (if no longer legal) discrimination to this day.

Page reference please, I have no idea what you are talking about and some context would be nice. What you are doing is no different thatn if someone said that Quentin Tarntino is a racist because in Pulp Fiction he refers to a black character as a '[EDITED]'.

So the book, though I'm waiting for page references, mentions a word that is a racist epithet. Ok, so what? Context please.

Have you read any of L5R? You need to have your hand held on the claim that there are eta in the setting, including sides that are presented as good? Are you some kind of lazy inversion of the gish gallop, where you throw doubt and question on every datum presented?

Why is it necessary for me to read it to meet someone else's burden of proof?

That's not what a gish gallop is.

[ghost whistler]

Frank's comparison between the burakumin and African-Americans is quite apt. The burakumin were non-citizen residents in Japan, legally 'worth 1/7 of an ordinary person,' and forced to do terrible labor until they were officially-but-only-kind-of-actually liberated in 1871. The descendants of those people who were liberated still face all kinds of entrenched prejudice to this day. The word 'eta,' which literally translates to 'an abundance of filth,' is unambiguously derogatory. The text in L5R blithely uses it as if it weren't a loaded word. On page 26 of the main rulebook, the term is used six times in two paragraphs.

Quentin Tarantino movies frequently portray racist people in a racist society, so it's not surprising that they use racist language. That is very different from a supposedly neutral authorial voice explaining a setting using racist language to describe people in the setting.

The comparison may indeed be apt, but it doesn't prove that the game is racist. It merely speaks to attitudes in Japan, not attitudes in the minds of the designers that we can see in the book.

Surely you must see that you can't just say the game is racist. You need to provide evidence. You can't surely think that such a crass accusation is acceptable in any civilised debate?

[shlominus]

The word 'eta,' which literally translates to 'an abundance of filth,' is unambiguously derogatory. The text in L5R blithely uses it as if it weren't a loaded word. On page 26 of the main rulebook, the term is used six times in two paragraphs.

so this example is not proof enough? may i ask what would constitute proof in your view?

[virgil]

Why is it necessary for me to read it to meet someone else's burden of proof?

Fine then, if we're at the level where the existence of eta in the system needs citations. You better put up or shut up.

It's part of the setting. The DNA of Rokugan is based around clans that don't always get along or work together. It is not written that players must come from different clans, even though they might want to. There are other games that have this problem, such as Fading Suns. This is a feature of the setting, if you don't like ir or can't make it work, that's fine you find something that works for you. It is not evidence the game is broken.

How is Rokugan based around clans that don't get along or work together? Page citation please, and don't use any other source but the core rulebook of the current edition of L5R. How does Fading Suns have this problem? I want proof and page citation, including the fact that it's a setting feature.

This may or may not be true,but I don't think I want FFG putting out another £30 starter set that actually isn't complete and requires 3 copies to get anywhere near a decent playset, plus the monthly subscription to keep up with the game. I can't keep up with this anymore.

When has FFG ever put out a £30 starter set that wasn't complete and required 3 copies to a decent playset? How do I know you can't keep with that if you don't give us proof?

[virgil]

That's not what a gish gallop is.

I didn't say anything was a gish gallop. Prove that I did. I want links with thread page citations.

[Omegonthesane]

Page reference please, I have no idea what you are talking about and some context would be nice. What you are doing is no different thatn if someone said that Quentin Tarntino is a racist because in Pulp Fiction he refers to a black character as a '[EDITED]'.

So the book, though I'm waiting for page references, mentions a word that is a racist epithet. Ok, so what? Context please.

Have you read any of L5R? You need to have your hand held on the claim that there are eta in the setting, including sides that are presented as good? Are you some kind of lazy inversion of the gish gallop, where you throw doubt and question on every datum presented?

Why is it necessary for me to read [the rulebook I have been defending] to meet someone else's burden of proof?

Aaand back on ignore he goes. Not even worth the effort to pull out an Obvious Troll image macro.

[sandmann]

so this example is not proof enough? may i ask what would constitute proof in your view?

Let me just quote myself:

[Leress]

Sand, I think Shlom was talking to Ghost.

[ghost whistler]

so this example is not proof enough? may i ask what would constitute proof in your view?

I'm asking for evidence in the book of the game being racist. The presence of racist terms in the book is not per se evidence based on the example i gave you: the characters in Pulp Fiction refer to blacks as [EDITED], does that make the film's makers racist?

So again, where in the book is evidence that proves the game is racist.

[ghost whistler]

That's not what a gish gallop is.

I didn't say anything was a gish gallop. Prove that I did. I want links with thread page citations.

You're not listening. Here is what you said:

Are you some kind of lazy inversion of the gish gallop, where you throw doubt and question on every datum presented?

A gish gallop is a stream of fast talk full of bullshit, like technobabble, designed to bamboozle the listener. I haven't presented anything of the kind as I have not made any claims. Please show me where I made a gish gallop.

[virgil]

Are you some kind of lazy inversion of the gish gallop, where you throw doubt and question on every datum presented?

A gish gallop is a stream of fast talk full of bullshit, like technobabble, designed to bamboozle the listener. I haven't presented anything of the kind as I have not made any claims. Please show me where I made a gish gallop.

That is not a claim of you making a gish gallop. Try again.

[ghost whistler]

Why is it necessary for me to read it to meet someone else's burden of proof?

Fine then, if we're at the level where the existence of eta in the system needs citations. You better put up or shut up.

It's not a question of 'fine', you're being petulant. This is straightforward: I am not the party making the claim, I have not asserted that L5R is racist, so why on earth would you ask me to prove that claim?

Are you saying that because the book contains the word 'eta' (if it does, i'm certainly not going to read the entire book right now to scane for the word since I have the print version and can't search it) it must be racist/written by racists? Again that's like saying Pulp Fiction and or it's makers is racist because of the use of the N word within.

So, diversions aside, where in the book is there evidence of actual racism on the part of the writers, since that is the claim: that the game is racist, not that it contains racism.

How is Rokugan based around clans that don't get along or work together? Page citation please, and don't use any other source but the core rulebook of the current edition of L5R.

To be clear, you are asking me to prove to you that Rokugani culture is governed by clans and that these clans don't always get along? Is that what you want me to provide evidence for; that it's not axiomatic?

How does Fading Suns have this problem?

It has a similar structure in its society: noble houses. though pc's can belong to other groups, such as the Church. In L5R you belong to a clan in some fashion, though iirc you can also be a monk.

When has FFG ever put out a £30 starter set that wasn't complete and required 3 copies to a decent playset? How do I know you can't keep with that if you don't give us proof?

Warhammer Conquest.

[Leress]

Keyword, Ghost, is inversion

Are you saying that because the book contains the word 'eta' (if it does, i'm certainly not going to read the entire book right now to scan[e] for the word since I have the print version and can't search it)

You were told where it was by Angel:

On page 26 of the main rulebook, the term is used six times in two paragraphs

Here it is:

Below the bonge are the lowest of Rokugan’s social order, the
hinin or “non-people,” who are born into those tasks which the
Rokugani consider to be intrinsically spiritually impure. Primarily,
this involves any activity which leads to touching “unclean”
substances such as blood, garbage, or dead fl esh. Morticians,
leatherworkers, and refuse collectors (known collectively as eta)
form the bulk of the hinin caste. Such persons are regarded as
less than nothing, and even peasants look down on them and
abuse them. The eta’s life is bitter and unpleasant, and their only
hope under the rules of the Celestial Order is to fulfi ll their duties
well enough to be reborn into a higher station in their next life.
The rest of Rokugan ignores the eta as much as possible. Nevertheless,
these people have a vital role, performing the “unclean”
jobs no one else will touch.
Although most of the hinin are eta, the ranks of this caste
also include a few other individuals. Torturers, who must constantly
infl ict harm and touch blood and sweat, are also considered
hinin, although they are permitted to serve samurai more
directly than the eta. Finally, geisha – women who offer samurai
entertainment and companionship – are considered to be hinin,
although unlike eta and torturers they are accorded certain fame
and respect by the rest of society.

[virgil]

So the book, though I'm waiting for page references, mentions a word that is a racist epithet.

You have demanded citations for the existence of the word in a book you have, which is a mind-boggling level of pedantry. And no, it's not like Pulp Fiction. I have never heard of people from that caste using the term as a form of interpersonal address. Pulp Fiction uses the word without actually having slaves in it, while L5R does. Part of the claim of racism is that eta are present even in kingdoms that are otherwise presented as noble/good. If I had to guess, they aren't treating this facet as a black mark on the culture, which can easily be argued to be racist. But that requires a level of thought and introspection that you are obviously against.

To be clear, you are asking me to prove to you that Rokugani culture is governed by clans and that these clans don't always get along? Is that what you want me to provide evidence for; that it's not axiomatic?

Well, you show doubt for even the use of the word eta in the same book, so obviously expect quite a bit of hand-holding on all claims.

How does Fading Suns have this problem?

It has a similar structure in its society: noble houses. though pc's can belong to other groups, such as the Church. In L5R you belong to a clan in some fashion, though iirc you can also be a monk.

Prove. It. There's a difference between there being noble houses (plus church) and the setting being based around everyone being part of the noble houses/church.

When has FFG ever put out a £30 starter set that wasn't complete and required 3 copies to a decent playset? How do I know you can't keep with that if you don't give us proof?

Warhammer Conquest.

Where's your proof? Show me where it's £30. How is it not complete? Where does it say you need three copies for a good playset?

[Longes]

Ugh. Can we just get the thread locked, because this is going the way of the bear silva fast?

[TheFlatline]

Aaaand Ghost just went into the ignore list for being intentionally obtuse.

[shlominus]

Sand, I think Shlom was talking to Ghost.

i was indeed. i was also wasting my time.

[ghost whistler]

So it's taken 4 pages to answer a simple question.

And this assertion resist on the assumption that the word 'eta' has no historical context. One look on qikipedia:

In the feudal era, the outcaste were called eta (穢多, literally, "an abundance of defilement" or "an abundance of filth"), a term now considered derogatory. Eta towns were called etamura (穢多村).

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burakumin

So in the era that inspires the game, the word actually was used in the way it is used in the game.

This complaint about the game's racist intent is at best highly tenuous; it would be like complaining that an rpg set during the slave trade in the US was racist because it had explanations for the lexicon of the time.

Is this really a reasonable way to look at a game? Is this how you people treat games you don't like, you just despreately try and dig the dirt and pull out vile accusations? Grow the fuck up. Seriously. Do you think this sort of shit is funny?

[Ancient History]

Is this really a reasonable way to look at a game? Is this how you people treat games you don't like, you just despreately try and dig the dirt and pull out vile accusations? Grow the fuck up. Seriously. Do you think this sort of shit is funny?

As Frank pointed out - no, it's not funny. It's the equivalent of using the word n*gger in Call of Cthulhu - which would be historically accurate, but also fucking horrible. This is explicitly the same kind of issue you're looking at in Legend of the Five Rings. Which has been pointed out to you, repeatedly.

And yes, that's the most glaring example. But as Frank also pointed out, L5R is a yellowface setting. It's a generous mix of cultural stereotypes from a gamut of Asian cultures - so it's really hard to tell at times what might be blatantly offensive to actual members of those cultures, because seriously, the players are mostly weeabo white folks that don't know the difference. It's really just an extension of a larger problem where you appropriate aspects of other cultures, or combine them like a medieval chronicler with no care for the truth, or just plain misrepresent large segments of the world and its peoples based on ignorant misconceptions - which is true of the majority of Africa sourcebooks we've ever run across, for example.

And yes, we do nitpick some of this stuff, because this is primarily a game design forum, and we like to get at the bones of how games do and don't work here - if only so we can try to avoid the same mistakes.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I'm amazed that someone is either that stupid or that devoted to pretending to be stupid.

[ghost whistler]

[EDITED] is a racist slur based on ideas of racial superiority. Eta was a formal term, in feudal Japan on which L5R is based, to describe a class of people. It is apparently now used as an insult, there's nothing racial about it. It's no different than the use fo te word 'pleb' as an insult. Would we be calling a game based on ancient Rome racist if it used that word?

this is complete nonsense based on the offensive notion that westerners cannot and must not toake inspiration from Asian cultures. Says who? You?

Noone else seems to find this racist that I can find. To call this 'yellowface' is unfounded and equally offensive. There is nothing 'yellowface' about it. What on earth does 'generou mix of cultural stereotypes mean'? It's a fantasy rpg, not an in depth cultural study. It's no more stereotyping than any other fantasy setting at all.

This is insanity. Western imperialism? Cultural appropriation? Give me a break.

And to make matters worse you have just insulted everyone who likes the game and doesn't think like you, calling them 'weabo' types and asserting they don't know any better.