Shadow of the Demon Lord, grimdark for dummies.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:11 am

Frank,

Remember that this game actually has mandatory prestige classing. You can't be a "level 8 warrior", you just get a minor benefit for having been warrior. In principle I'd think it would be fine for warrior to never give magic because it's not really an 8-level class; as long as the second-tier classes give you enough magic to be viable, everything's fine. Now, some of their advanced classes sound like they might also be non-magic. Thief/Warrior may well turn out to be a broken concept, but Shaman/Warrior or Wizard/Warrior could definitely be viable.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:37 am

The Clockwork is an obvious reskin of the Warforged. Hell, it's literally exactly the name I was considering to bypass copyright on the Warforged.

However, the "roll a 1" thing is so obviously stupid that I can't take this seriously. Characters roll more dice when they are more skilled. Having critical fumbles trigger whenever you roll a specific magic number means that more skilled characters fumble more often. For fuck's sake, RPG design had this discussion in the 1970s, it is inexcusable to float such an obviously and well known to be stupid idea as new in 2015. This idea was had and rejected for being dumb before I was even born.

Orion wrote:Frank,

Remember that this game actually has mandatory prestige classing. You can't be a "level 8 warrior", you just get a minor benefit for having been warrior. In principle I'd think it would be fine for warrior to never give magic because it's not really an 8-level class; as long as the second-tier classes give you enough magic to be viable, everything's fine. Now, some of their advanced classes sound like they might also be non-magic. Thief/Warrior may well turn out to be a broken concept, but Shaman/Warrior or Wizard/Warrior could definitely be viable.

It's not really Prestige Classing. It's 4e style Paragon Classing. Or Sub-classing if you prefer. You alternate levels between getting the stuff you would get from one class and the stuff you would get from your next class.

The problem I see with it is that Warrior just gives numbers. It's very difficult for me to imagine that being anything other than the best or the worst thing to stick onto the other classes. Basically you either are going to end up using those numbers with the abilities you get from your Paragon class or you won't. And if you do, then not having the Warrior's bonus numbers is going to make you suck. And if you don't, then the Warrior's abilities might as well be blank space on your character sheet. I don't see a lot of middle ground here.

I'm on record as thinking that this sort of sub-classing shenanigans are a good thing. I stand by that assessment. But I also don't really think that it's remotely easy to balance an "all numbers" class and an "all abilities" class. That's pretty classically something that game designers fail at doing.

-Username17

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:49 am

The clockwork penalty seems like a safeguard for slaves as if they rebel against you after 20 actions they're statistically going to turn inanimate.

Better not dual wield if you're clockwork (or maybe dual wielding works differently in this game)

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:43 pm

OgreBattle wrote:The clockwork penalty seems like a safeguard for slaves as if they rebel against you after 20 actions they're statistically going to turn inanimate.

Better not dual wield if you're clockwork (or maybe dual wielding works differently in this game)

It's annoying enough that most slavemasters would exchange it for an explosive collar or something. If you spend all your time winding up your slaves so that they can work, then you might as well just do the work yourself. If you have to wind your slave every 3 and a third minutes, that's actual hard work.

How balanced it is in combat depends on how common poison is. If everyone uses save-or-suck poisons, then it's obviously worth the risk. If no one uses poisons, or if poison immunity is easy to get, then it isn't.

Personally, I would have made it the rule that they have to be wound at least once every 24 hours, so they can't adventure alone and are screwed if they're separated from the rest of the party for too long, but don't risk being locked down in combat unless someone has a specific anti-clockwork power.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:26 pm

That's actually a decent houserule for Clockwork methinks. From a in-game perspective, isn't the rule they only roll for when it matters? So likely most menial slave labor, they end up not having to roll for at all, and thusly, not in threat of shutting down? While I guess more strenuous tasks has risk of temporarily overloading them. However it is implied they are always on a timer, so the idea they need to be constantly wound is sound flavor-wise.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:24 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Robert Schwalb probably feels rather entitled to get something back from D&D considering how much his personal efforts have done to keep the game and the company afloat. However... I can't actually point to anything he's ever done that particularly struck me as good.

Well, good might be too high of a bar for him to clear, but I can think of several additions he made to 4E D&D that were internally popular even accounting for the shill factor. People genuinely loved the PHB3 classes (except for the Seeker, but there was no way to save that turd) such that you had the ridiculous spectacle of classes like the monk, runepriest, and battlemind being more common in games than the PHB2 classes. And of course he was the guy behind the non-Dark Sun Themes which were so popular that every single post-Essential TTRPG that I saw used them if they knew about them. Yes, more people used themes than rituals, backgrounds, and multiclassing.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:26 am

So, there was a Q&A chat sort of thing for his game that you check out here

For Everyone else, there's Mastercard I'll show some highlights in the spoiler block below.

[19:50] <+rjschwalb> All characters have a Defense characteristic. It equals Agility. If you wear medium or heavy armor, the armor replaces your Agility for Defense. I opted for this route as play testing revealed a damage reduction system introduced a little too much complexity for casual play.

Dual-Wielding or TWFing: [20:57] <+rjschwalb> You may use an action to attack with a weapon you wield in one hand and a weapon you wield in your off hand. You make each attack roll with a bane.

On Skills:

[19:45] <~Dan> And if so, does that mean that you either have a skill or you don’t?

[19:45] <+rjschwalb> Skills are represented by Professions and Talents. Professions are soft tech. They don’t have attached mechanics. Rather, they are story cues for interpreting what happens in the game. Talents scoop up anything that has genuine mechanical weight.

[19:46] <+rjschwalb> Attributes, though, carry the task resolution burden.

20:06] <+rjschwalb> No. You don’t add attribute modifiers to damage.

<+rjschwalb> "Swift weapons have a property that lets you sub Agility for Strength." ("finesse" weapons of 4e yore essentially)

20:13] <+rjschwalb> Size is used for play with minis and to easily communicate how much space creatures take up. A large bag could hold creatures whose total Size does not exceed 1. So that bag could hold a human, 2 halflings, 4 pixies, and so on. It also determines reach.

On Corruption: (For Dogbert)

[20:36] <+rjschwalb> The character must willfully do something horrific to earn corruption.

[20:37] <+rjschwalb> Eat a baby alive. Cast a spell that causes a dude’s junk to slough off, but otherwise leave him alive. Burn down an orphanage full of kids. Release a demon from the Void.

[20:38] <+rjschwalb> All that is corruption worthy. Being a dude fighting for the necromancer won’t cause you to sprout horns or grow extra fingers.

[20:39] <+rjschwalb> Also, corruption is not likely to climb by more than a point or two per session. Since the game expects 11 sessions, you have plenty of time to embrace the dark and reap the rewards or punishments.

[20:52] <+rjschwalb> The Bestiary will run about 32 pages I think.

[20:54] <+rjschwalb> I have 38 traditions designed. The Witchcraft tradition went away and was replaced by Curse and a couple of other traditions.

The Post Game content levels 11th+

[20:46] <+rjschwalb> When your group hits 11, each player makes another starting character. The new character might be an agent, henchmen, apprentice, or something else to the higher level character.

20:50] <+rjschwalb> The power curve drops dramatically when you reach 11. Level 11+ characters aren’t much more powerful than level 10, but can affect things on a broader scale. Plus, game play is a bit different, since you play regionally. The new starting characters act as agents for the higher level characters.

Lastly, looks like the quote got cut off, but Schwalb did seem to assure that monsters have built-in Ranged options, and are particularly 'sticky" to help circumvent being simply kited (seemed regard Aoo's running away). Beyond that, some mentions of changing a games focus to "story" focus from hack & slash made no sense.

silva · Post by **silva** » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:39 pm

Looks like a pretty cool game. A pitty I'm tight on resources right now.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:12 am

Well Silva, its allegedly supposed to be super short, and fit your "make a PC in 15 minutes" criteria, so ye might actually like it. Albeit I feel ye didn't notice it's no longer being Kickstarted, and if so, I find it strange you miss this (site format issues perhaps, can't be foreigner barrier as I'm sure its translated in your tongue).

Anyway, to make this more worthwhile, I found that I squinted for no real reason, as apparently the images to the Base, Paths, and Binding/Possession existed somewhere else in super clear form. So it seems like ye can indeed become a pseudo-Pokemaster, possibly throwing down with multiple "containers", albeit only as 1/day (though getting 3 or so is probably enough for an entire session/adventure).

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 9:48 am

So, I'm a Backer for Shadow of the Demon Lord, and the PDF to the core book recently came out. I am interested in doing a review of it at some point If nobody else is explicitly (since this game isn't "Old" be off-topic to mention in that thread). However since going to be a bunch of other material as well, I was wondering if people prefer I wait till its all out and try to review through all of it, or to review the core book, and then the other material as it comes out?

I haven't really gotten some compiled thoughts just yet, but I do have some immediate ones I wanted to mention:
Corruption seems to be written in the concerned manner that Dogbert mentioned originally, despite it conflicts with what the author says on how Corruption should be doled out in a given session.

Professions seemingly been downplayed by word of the authors, but mechanically, having more of them does allow you to Fiat more things into what you can do. Also while not WFRP-bad in redundancy, not all professions are equal, as ones have names that'd lend to doing more than others (say Geography v. Nature, Agitator v. Spy, Butcher v.Cook etc.). Course, these are on random d20 tables, so the inequality could be intentional.

However, it does do a "interesting thing" similar to 5e where its a flavorful trinket or "trait", BUT there's actual options among the flavor. Some Highlights:

Boots/cloak that give a BOON on Sneak/Hide checks!
20ft of uncuttable rope
DM fiat goggles let you see through 1inch of solid rock
Non-stackable Light Armor that can be worn under clothing.
True name of a very minor devil (nice for pokemon summonings?)
Collasable 3yard pole.
Getting a weapon chosen by the GM ( there's another like this one but emits light in 3ft)

I'd like to note, some of them are simply getting a weapon, but because level 0 starting equipment something you'd expect right out of Dragon Quest (or less even) with sticks and "hopefully' someone has a copper sword.

EDIT: Oh, and TWF is worse now, ye get 2 Banes if you Twin Strike one dude, Three! if attacking two separate targets.

ghost whistler · Post by **ghost whistler** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:42 pm

K wrote:Shadow of the Demon Lord

Looks like some of the usual suspects of DnD and Paizo have decided to make a rules-lite grimdark fantasy RPG. Nothing really new here, but the character building does look like interesting. Combat looks less so. Sample spells include such winners as "Hole of Glory."

Also notable for having a terrible Kickstarter video.

"I make role-playing games; not the sort you play in the bedroom..."

Are you sure?

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:57 am

A review would be cool. I'm interested in seeing how long combat lasts with different setups and how tactical it gets.

How are the rules for interacting with the environment (pushing people into cliffs, soft vs hard cover and so on)

ruemere · Post by **ruemere** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:11 am

OgreBattle wrote:A review would be cool. I'm interested in seeing how long combat lasts with different setups and how tactical it gets.

How are the rules for interacting with the environment (pushing people into cliffs, soft vs hard cover and so on)

Disclaimer: I have a copy of the rules, but I haven't read it properly yet since I prefer reading physical books.

The rolls
You have two types of rolls, challenge and attack.

Challenge:
d20 + (Attribute - 10) + (Choose_Highest_Roll([Boons-Banes] * 1d6)) vs. Target_Number_of_10

Attack:
As above, but the target number is equal to opponent's attribute (usually between 8 and 20).

Note:
You start with 10 in attributes, and can raise them to 20 via story/backgrounds etc.

The rest of the rules are a series of situation specific rules. Hiding, etc.

My current opinion is that this is a system I really want to try.
It gives off Warhammer vibe, both due to looks, career-like levels and tight presentation of rules (hiding rules are extremely simple... not 13th Age level of simple, but simple still). But that's to be expected from a guy who wrote Black Company setting, one of WFRP editions, Grimm and so on.
Still, final judgement reserved for the print version. The PDFs are supposed undergo at least one more round of revisions before prints.

PS. Here is community's guide to creation of new characters.

Regards,
Ruemere

ruemere · Post by **ruemere** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:55 am

Regarding Clockworks...

FrankTrollman wrote:The Clockwork[...]

However, the "roll a 1" thing is so obviously stupid that I can't take this seriously. Characters roll more dice when they are more skilled. Having critical fumbles trigger whenever you roll a specific magic number means that more skilled characters fumble more often. For fuck's sake, RPG design had this discussion in the 1970s, it is inexcusable to float such an obviously and well known to be stupid idea as new in 2015. This idea was had and rejected for being dumb before I was even born.[...]
-Username17

The recent version of the core PDF has the rule as follows:

SotDL_Core_PDF_9-11-2015.pdf wrote:It [the clockwork key] also stops turning at the end of any round in which you got a total of 0 or lower on an attack roll or challenge roll.
[...]
Any creature that can reach you can use an action to wind up your key. If you are not incapacitated, you become a creature once more. If you are incapacitated, roll a d6. On a 3 or lower, there is no effect. On a 4 or higher, you heal 1 damage and become a creature at the end of the round.

In other words, as long as you avoid using your weak abilities in critical situations, you're pretty much safe.

Regards,
Ruemere

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:39 am

ruemere wrote:Disclaimer: I have a copy of the rules, but I haven't read it properly yet since I prefer reading physical books.

I have read the game, or at least majority of it, made a 10th lv PC, and I also will have access to all of the present, and future Kickstarter material. Considering you also will have a physical book, I take it you pledged at that level as well? I myself am still interested in doing a review of it, I suppose the way we format reviews, and my style of writing I was worried about?

Aw dood, ruemere, we could do a joint review! (I joke, because I've no clue how Frank & Ancient History did such undertakings, so would be such a bad idea)

EDIT:

Note:You start with 10 in attributes, and can raise them to 20 via story/backgrounds etc.

Not exactly, the race will define what stats you have, human baseline is 10. The highest a Stat will go is from 13-16 to maybe 17 with a certain magic item that a GM is willing to be on the nice side of fiat. You only get 3-4 stat increases the entire game.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:04 pm

-Hey Steve, how do we make people want to play goblins?
-Don't worry, I've got a cool "Odd Habit" table right here, and players must choose or roll randomly for one of them

1 You save all your secretions in small bottles and give them as gifts to people you like.
2 You never bathe.
3 You punctuate your sentences by spitting.
4 You have tremendous flatulence, yet you seem never to notice when you break wind.
5 You eat only candy.
6 You collect the genitals from creatures you kill and wear them as jewelry.
7 You lick things to claim them as your own.
8 You dress in fancy clothes.
9 You refuse to wear shoes.
10 You keep cockroaches as pets.
11 You always inspect your bowel movements, spreading the mess around with your fingers.

silva · Post by **silva** » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:35 pm

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:13 am

Aryxbez wrote:I did vaguely learn more about the Robot Race or "Clockwork".

Robert J Schwalb wrote:They have keys in their backs that they cannot reach.

YES!

souran · Post by **souran** » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:08 pm

So its now 2019 and Shadow of the Demon Lord has been out since march 2015 and 5e D&D has been out since August (PHB) of 2014.

So the games are separated by about 6 months. Both are in their 5th production year.

However, in that time SotDL has managed to produce a signifcant amount of additional supplimental material. Schwalb entertainment has pretty much found that they can monetize people's desire to have rules to play as/with all kinds of things. 5e has produced three books that contain player options and limits you to picking one of those when making a character.

Now WOTC is making more money than Schwalb, but their is pretty clearly a desire for more content than WOTC produces. Additionally, it should be embarrassing that their production values and publishing schedule is not really better than what one of their own former staffers can do from their garage....

Also, i guess kudos to RJS for making a heatbreaker with enough staying power to be your day job.

The Gaming Den

Shadow of the Demon Lord, grimdark for dummies.

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