Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[OgreBattle]

So has anyone tried out the stamina rules for Pathfinder unchained? It's like a ki pool in that you spend it to hit things harder or get a feat-like effect, but they changed the name so mundane fighters can still call themselves mundane I guess.

[Leress]

So has anyone tried out the stamina rules for Pathfinder unchained? It's like a ki pool in that you spend it to hit things harder or get a feat-like effect, but they changed the name so mundane fighters can still call themselves mundane I guess.

It looks a little worse since the combat tricks are tied to the feats that were chosen and you need to burn a feat just to get them.

[Eikre]

The Gaming Den... I need your help.

Someone's asking me for a level 14 gish build for a game and they insist on having something like the Magus's Spell Combat feature. Of course, Magi suck horse anus and I've been wracking my brain trying to come up with a way to reduce the suck.

Right now, my plan is to present an Arcanist (Blade Adept) 6 / Magus 1 / Eldritch Knight 7. The plan right now is to take Extra Arcana: Broad Study using the Eldritch Knight's Diverse Training feature.

An eldritch knight adds his level to any levels of fighter he might have for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites for feats (if he has no fighter levels, treat his eldritch knight levels as levels of fighter). He also adds his level to any levels in an arcane spellcasting class for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites for feats.

The thing is, I'm not quite sure if that's legal. The Broad Study Arcana has Magus 6 as a prerequisite, but that's internal to the Arcana class features.

Is there any rule lawyer stuff I can use to make such a thing legal?

That's a good catch with the Arcanist, it's a better Magus then the Magus. By RAW it's legal. You qualify for the feat via EK, you get Spell Combat from the Magus and Spell Strike from the Arcanist, so it should work as intended. The only potential problem is that you are being clever in ways Pathfinder-GMs might not like, so it still may get blocked regardless.

No, he's right, Magus 6 isn't actually a prerequisite of the feat, and Eldritch Knight only helps with feat prereqs. It's only after you select the feat and get the benefits that you're referred to the class feature.

It's still clever as fuck though. Did you really come up with it on your own or did you find that in a handbook somewhere? I'd like to see what other people said about it. Most of them wouldn't have anything worthwhile to add, but somebody might have considered alternatives that you missed when you glanced at the discussion. As it stands, the best argument for its legitimacy would just be proposing it without further comment.

EDIT: Actually maybe there's some grammatical quibble you can raise about the difference between meeting the "prerequisites OF feats" and "prerequisite FOR feats." If Eldritch Knight only applies to the prerequisite of a feat, then it's not a legitimate application, but Eldritch Knight applies to prerequisites for feats. The prerequisite of the Magus Arcana is being invoked by the feat (albeit, in the 'benefits' line), therefor, the prerequisite is for the feat.

Fuck it, I don't know. I think writing "for" instead of "of" is actually the ordinary diction, so maybe that's not very convincing. I'm actually starting to feel convinced, myself, though. Hopefully it's enough to dazzle your friends with, too.

[Orca]

So has anyone tried out the stamina rules for Pathfinder unchained? It's like a ki pool in that you spend it to hit things harder or get a feat-like effect, but they changed the name so mundane fighters can still call themselves mundane I guess.

Not quite like ki - you can recover one point per minute of rest, which makes it a lot more spendable. I haven't tried it, but the effects look like they range from useful (e.g. Rapid Shot) to occasionally useful (Step Up) to 'why did they print this?' (Weapon Finesse).

[icyshadowlord]

From what I've seen, Unchained didn't really fix anything.

That, and it hasn't become the new default on most tables either.

So it kinda just stands there, doing nothing but looking shiny on the PRD.

[Lago PARANOIA]

As far as I know, no other guide has thought of that combination. From what I've seen, most people have approached the idea of the Eldritch Knight and Magus as non-overlapping magisteria having such obvious redundancy that it's not worth discussing.

[Archmage Joda]

So, at this point, has transmutation become a worthy wizard specialization, or is it still just so full of "meh" that it's not for specializing in, just for putting the gems in your spellbook while specializing in something else?

[AcidBlades]

Well it does have Haste and Fly. So while it's not really worth specializing in. I can't ever see myself just banning it outright though, and being forced to use higher level slots for that kind of shit.

So how about them occult classes? Spiritualist is a shitty summoner, Kineticist is bad, but I simply don't give a fuck about any of the other classes.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Medium is a neat support class but it's hamstrung by the fact that you can't do your thing outside of an urban area (except for one archetype that can only work in nature and takes away one of the better spirits). Occultist is a neat concept but is needlessly complex and limited (and the iconic is a fatass with a neckbeard), mesmerist has a reliable way to reduce saves, and psychic is a 9 level caster.

Note that psychic casters are hamstrung by the fact that any sort of non-harmless emotion effects can prevent their spellcasting. Every class has spells that remove emotion effects, you are required to take those.

[rasmuswagner]

Well it does have Haste and Fly. So while it's not really worth specializing in. I can't ever see myself just banning it outright though, and being forced to use higher level slots for that kind of shit.

So how about them occult classes? Spiritualist is a shitty summoner, Kineticist is bad, but I simply don't give a fuck about any of the other classes.

Medium is a truly shitty Binder. Occultist is like an Incarnum class with half-casting. Psychic is a lot to chew through to discover the no doubt shitty sorcerer hidden beneath.

Mesmerist has lots of moving parts that look just useful enough to be fun for a while.

[Orca]

... Occultist is a neat concept but is needlessly complex and limited ...

All of them fit this description. The occultist maybe more so, but they're all baroque, complex beasts which might have tricks which make them worthwhile but probably don't.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Well it does have Haste and Fly. So while it's not really worth specializing in. I can't ever see myself just banning it outright though, and being forced to use higher level slots for that kind of shit.

So how about them occult classes? Spiritualist is a shitty summoner, Kineticist is bad, but I simply don't give a fuck about any of the other classes.

Beta Kineticist scratched my "roll big piles of damage dice" itch. How did they change it?

[OgreBattle]

Medium, Occultist, Mesmerist, even if their performance is lackluster do they have interesting sub-systems that are worth exploring?

The way PF classes are written is annoying as all of the class options are split up in archtypes, bonus feats and whatnot that require clicking to different pages.

[RelentlessImp]

Medium is a truly shitty Binder.

How the fuck do you make Binder worse?

[Miniature Colossus]

Looking around for peoples opinions on Occult Adventures it looks like most of the talk is concerning the open playtest and after the actual book got released most of the interest died. Not exactly a good sign. Of the people who have said something, it seems everyone more or less agrees that the classes feel half-finished with no clear roles to fill. Their abilities are needlessly complicated and without any real synergies to make them work well. Sounds like a book full of lame monks.

And if the lackluster mechanics weren't enough, they may have botched the flavor even worse. It may just be me but when I hear "Occult magic" I think cultists in robes holding seances and digging out secrets in old libraries. While some of that is part of some classes the fact still remains that 5 of 6 classes are wearing armor and have 3/4BAB. And the psychic isn't exactly enough to compensate. Seriously, this is what a real life occultist looks like.

Is there anything salvageable in the book? What about the things that are not classes like whatever system they introduced for auras?

[momothefiddler]

Looking around for peoples opinions on Occult Adventures it looks like most of the talk is concerning the open playtest and after the actual book got released most of the interest died.

This was basically my experience with Unchained, too. I think Paizo uses the playtests to ferret out anything they accidentally left interesting and quash it before actual publishing.

[RelentlessImp]

Paizo uses the playtests

Haha, wow. As if Paizo pays any attention to any sort of playtest.

[souran]

Occult adventures was going to be a wierd book from the beginning. Paizo didn't do a replacement for phsycic stuff because it has never worked well with D&D. WOTC/D&D has a history with the "Phsychic" heros but that really stemmed from Gygax and co. wanting to be able to use D&D to play "princess of mars" styled science fantasy games. 3.X/Pathfinder/D&D in General does not need "psychics" and a 3rd full magic system.

Also, the things that are important from "pathfinder unchained" are the ones allowed in PFS play. The revised classes are in, the alternate rules are out. The stamina system is allowed for a feat. Everything else, including the revised action economy, was a waste of design time.

[LR]

Haha, wow. As if Paizo pays any attention to any sort of playtest.

They do, actually. Playtests are an important source of focus testing for Paizo. If their baying throng of Pathfinder loyalists doesn't think that something is 'cool' enough, then that means that the flavor needs to be tweaked or they need to toss more Wayne Reynolds art on it until everyone is completely satisfied with what all of the classes, races, and feats are supposed to do. Of course, anyone who claims that they don't actually do those things is loudly ignored. Especially if they have charts or math to back up those claims.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Well it does have Haste and Fly. So while it's not really worth specializing in. I can't ever see myself just banning it outright though, and being forced to use higher level slots for that kind of shit.

So how about them occult classes? Spiritualist is a shitty summoner, Kineticist is bad, but I simply don't give a fuck about any of the other classes.

Beta Kineticist scratched my "roll big piles of damage dice" itch. How did they change it?

Made it a bit better. It's definitely the worst class of the lot, but it's exaggerated a bit by the people on the internet (It is not "worse than a warrior archer", it's about fighter or samurai levels of awful). The interesting concept that makes it fall flat is the burn mechanic. You take a risk by dedicating a portion of your HP (as a con-based character you will have a lot of HP) but are rewarded by bonuses to damage, to hit, save, DR, stat bonuses, etc. You're not supposed to never expend burn if you can't help it, you're supposed to tightly control it and spend it on 24 hour buffs and such.

Although this is chump change at level 20, you can throw around 120+2x con modifier(with a built-in +6 size modifier to con) + 2/3 your burn, as well as have 35% resistance to sneak attacks and critical hits. It's not GREAT, but it's SOMETHING.

[virgil]

The interesting concept that makes it fall flat is the burn mechanic. You take a risk by dedicating a portion of your HP (as a con-based character you will have a lot of HP) but are rewarded by bonuses to damage, to hit, save, DR, stat bonuses, etc. You're not supposed to never expend burn if you can't help it, you're supposed to tightly control it and spend it on 24 hour buffs and such.

For further education, part of the reason why you aren't supposed to spend burn is because each point of burn deals your level in subdual damage that can't be mitigated or even healed by anything until you rest. While you have lots of HP, you are explicitly limited to a max of 3+(Con mod) burn per day; by which point you have like 2HP/level left to your name.

[name_here]

I was going to suggest using Ferocity to cheese that, but it looks like they forgot non-lethal damage was a thing when writing Ferocity and I am actually not sure what would happen. Either it's impossible for a creature with Ferocity to be rendered unconcious for any reason, or they get knocked out as soon as their nonlethal damage total exceeds their current hit points.

[virgil]

I was going to suggest using Ferocity to cheese that, but it looks like they forgot non-lethal damage was a thing when writing Ferocity and I am actually not sure what would happen. Either it's impossible for a creature with Ferocity to be rendered unconcious for any reason, or they get knocked out as soon as their nonlethal damage total exceeds their current hit points.

This also doesn't deal with the situation of the fact when your HP is -1 or less, you'll go unconscious anyway because 0 nonlethal damage is still greater than your current HP. This has never been officially addressed, and I've heard Jason's opinion be "to niche a situation to bother making a rule for."

[Count Arioch the 28th]

The interesting concept that makes it fall flat is the burn mechanic. You take a risk by dedicating a portion of your HP (as a con-based character you will have a lot of HP) but are rewarded by bonuses to damage, to hit, save, DR, stat bonuses, etc. You're not supposed to never expend burn if you can't help it, you're supposed to tightly control it and spend it on 24 hour buffs and such.

For further education, part of the reason why you aren't supposed to spend burn is because each point of burn deals your level in subdual damage that can't be mitigated or even healed by anything until you rest. While you have lots of HP, you are explicitly limited to a max of 3+(Con mod) burn per day; by which point you have like 2HP/level left to your name.

It depends on what you're trying to do, I personally recommend having just enough to hit the breakpoints of Elemental Overflow that you qualify for. 7/level nonlethal points at level 18+ with a +6 size bonus to con isn't too out there. Again, neat concept (especially to me as I like risk/reward type mechanics) but flawed in the execution. If the bonuses were bigger yeah I'd totally burn myself down to 2 hp per level...

[Archmage Joda]

So, what would a good/decent houserule(s) be to make the kineticist and burn thing better at an actual table? I really wanna like that class, because I'm big on elemental mojo, but I don't want a kineticist to be shit on a shit sandwich.