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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

deaddmwalking wrote:You posit the damage as 2d4+4, which means it can range from 6 (minimum) to 12 (maximum) with an average of 9 on a hit. With a +4 to hit, even the 'NPC Wizard' with AC of 12 (presumably before casting mage armor which the 5th level example wizard has prepared) meaning they're missing 40% of the time. Combined with 4 PCs and needing to hit -10 before they die, there's a big difference an encounter you can lose and an encounter that will certainly include 'save or die'.
Go fuck yourself with a utility pole you sack of shit. Finger of Death only kills on a fucking failed saving throw, which is exactly the same fucking thing as a to hit role.

Saying something isn't a save-or-die because because it has a chance of missing is the dumbest fucking thing in the universe.

Not to mention I have no idea why you are talking about a level 5 NPC Wizard having mage armor when people are talking about a level fucking 1 party fighting Orcs.

And then you go on to complain that spells at all are unfair because pixies are tiny. Fucking hell. How have you not drowned in a bathtub yet?
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Post by violence in the media »

deaddmwalking wrote: Attacking an ablative resource (like hitpoints) tends to feel more fair for more players for a number of reasons. Even if you accept that an opponent can one-shot you with melee damage, it's usually easy to recognize the danger a great axe poses. A 3" pixie with the ability to cast 9th level spells isn't nearly as obviously dangerous.
Whut?

How is the axe the recognizable danger when the only reason we know it's more dangerous than say, a sword, is because we know the rule implementation?

How is that the proper stopping point for recognizable danger? Couldn't people also learn that, due to rules, anything with magic is probably more dangerous than anything without it?
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Wiseman
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Post by Wiseman »

I think it's the idea that you can have more planning involved with hit points. With a SoL it's all down to luck really.
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MGuy
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Post by MGuy »

violence in the media wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote: Attacking an ablative resource (like hitpoints) tends to feel more fair for more players for a number of reasons. Even if you accept that an opponent can one-shot you with melee damage, it's usually easy to recognize the danger a great axe poses. A 3" pixie with the ability to cast 9th level spells isn't nearly as obviously dangerous.
Whut?

How is the axe the recognizable danger when the only reason we know it's more dangerous than say, a sword, is because we know the rule implementation?

How is that the proper stopping point for recognizable danger? Couldn't people also learn that, due to rules, anything with magic is probably more dangerous than anything without it?
A dude with a sword obviously poses a danger in close range. Ways to get around not being stabbed to death are easy to recognize and, compared to the breathtaking array of potential magic mojo that can be thrown your way, is easier to counteract. Even if you're placed in a situation where you can't just not be in melee you can at least take immediate defensive actions that don't require you to have a specific spell on hand to unfuck yourself. Also dead mentioned this but it is also easier to survive being knocked out via melee because you have a safety cushion that at least lets you resist being dead. So there are reasons people feel less insulted by being knocked out in melee.

That being said most people that i know of don't really like being one shot by mooks and would rather start the game at about level 3 specifically to mitigate that as much as possible.
Last edited by MGuy on Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle »

MGuy wrote: That being said most people that i know of don't really like being one shot by mooks and would rather start the game at about level 3 specifically to mitigate that as much as possible.
After Sundown mitigates that to some degree with the Edge system to add dice to your crucial soak rolls or to straight up avoid death:
"You can “spend” it to reroll dice that fail or to purchase a number of dice equal to your Edge attribute to improve any test."

" But when you are buying your way out of a deadly situation it is more complicated. At this point you are having fate intervene to save you in a narratively plausible fashion. This will require a negotiation of some kind with the MC to determine what is plausible under the circumstances. Maybe it's the police showing up before the Trolls have the opportunity to put the boot in, maybe it's the floor collapsing and dumping your comatose character into the basement before the flames have an opportunity to burn them to death...
But I'm not sure where a system like that fits into a "hitpoint grind vs Save or Die" argument. On one hand mooks without edge will die quickly in one or two hits most of the time, but on the other hand attacking someone with Edge means going through those edge points to actually kill them, so it's kind of like another layer of special hitpoints that are only restored per story arc instead of by healing/rest.

Would D&D be improved if you kept the SoD's, but had a small amount of Edge points (that only restore by story arc completion) to spend to resist Fingers of Death and narratively describe why the dragon breath doesn't kill you*?


*You still basically lose the fight though, it's purpose is more to have a way for the PC's and villains to lose but live again to fight another day
Last edited by OgreBattle on Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
MGuy
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Post by MGuy »

Sponge isn't advocating for mooks not to be killed with SoDs. He's trying to figure out a way to have it so nobodies die to SoDs but equally leveled challenges don't. I'm pretty sure no one cares if you can use abilities to tell a bunch of mooks to immediately fuck off. I've experimented with using 'points' before to mitigate death. It worked out both times to a degree. I haven't really tried it since switching over to PF but I can say it's worked for me.
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Post by Hicks »

That sounds like the CAN system Frank and the den hashed out for the den's New Edition. 3e Shadow Run (I'm told) used a progressive damage scale, so that equal matched opponents (e.g. a prime runner troll in combat armor vs. a rocket launcher) took piddly -1 light wounds and very mismatched opponents (Gangers with a shirt and a shiv vs. same rocket launcher) took -TEXA$ death low damage.
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