Minmaxing in GURPS?

[Silent Wayfarer]

So I'm playing an X-COM* agent in a GURPS 4e game. It's set just before X-COM becomes a proper paramilitary organization with skyrangers and robotanks and shit, so I imagine we're expected to be more than mere grunts.

A friend of mine recommended the combo of (Total) Klutz and Daredevil; Total Klutz converts all DX-based failures to critical failures and Daredevil lets you reroll any critical failures during action-packed scenes. In combat I just go around making insanely improbable shots and maneuvers with the assurance that I get to reroll them until I succeed (and since insanely improbable means crit or miss, I effectively always crit).

Apart that I play a perceptive talker type so I can spot hidden ayyliens and play the social minigame and stuff.

What are the flaws in this line of thinking? Should I try a more conventional character? What would that even look like? FWIW, our GM said we start at 250 points with up to 50 points in disads and 5 points in quirks.

* X-COM: eXtraterrestrial COMbat unit; basically ayyliens are infiltrating society and plotting the overthrow of humanity, so an international group of soldier types are assembled so they can remove ayyliens without worrying about international jurisdiction and paperwork.

[rasmuswagner]

Daredevil doesn't explicitly limit you to one reroll per roll, but expect rule zero.

The usual optimization guidelines (IQ>DX>skills>HT>ST, Combat Reflexes + Rapid Healing, Exotic>Mundane, costly abilities get limitations, cheap abilities get enhancements).

Acting, IIRC, is the master skill for Faces. Everything defaults off it. Merchant, Diplomacy and Psychology are also master skills.

Artillery is the only IQ-based combat skill, and all kind of seeking missiles use it.

Like in RL, armor and weapons are not "balanced". Once the shooting starts, having an actual gun is way better than having a pistol, and armor is probably always going to be worth it.

[kzt]

Other than GM approval? Which I would not be too confident about.

[mlangsdorf]

Word of the Line Editor is that Total Klutz + Daredevil lets you reroll a critical failure ONCE, and the second time you fail that roll, you're hosed. With gun combat, that means you're risking falling on your face a lot when you're dodging enemy attacks, and possibly having your weapons jam. I would really not recommend this combo if you expect to have to engage in melee, because critical failures on melee defense rolls turn into critical hits for the other guy, and that's a good way to get insta-gibbed.

With those point totals, you're looking at ST 10, HT 12, and DX+IQ = 30. Bias toward DX if you want to shoot people, bias toward IQ if you want to be talky. If you're a talky person, don't forget to pick up Charisma (5 pts/lvl) and Voice (10 pts), as both give bonuses to influence skills. Charisma is universal and will work on aliens.

I definitely recommend Combat Reflexes, though it's not required if you have good IQ and are willing to take cover in ranged combat. Rapid Healing is less worthwhile to me: don't get hit, and use super-science medicine to heal yourself if you do. I'd recommend Fit, as it's in-genre for soldiers who exercise a lot and is a almost always on HT bonus (as in, the rolls you'll be making to avoid the affects of alien poisons, not to mention to stay conscious and alive should you get hit).

ramuswagner is otherwise a good guide, but do remember if you only want to be good at one thing, high skill is cheaper than high stats. +1 to all DX rolls is 20 points, +5 to one DX skill (like Guns) is also 20 points. You're on a bell curve, so Guns-20 is much, much better than Guns-16.

If you think you'll be doing a lot of shooting, look into getting Gunslinger. Modern weapons have good Acc, so that's an a fairly large bonus, and the alternate benefit of ignoring the Bulk penalty when shooting on the move means you can run and gun with a sniper rifle and use it to shoot people who are grabbing you at no penalty (as opposed to the normal -5 or more).

[Silent Wayfarer]

(deleted for redundancy)

[Silent Wayfarer]

Daredevil doesn't explicitly limit you to one reroll per roll, but expect rule zero.

Yeah, the GM already said lolno.

The usual optimization guidelines (IQ>DX>skills>HT>ST, Combat Reflexes + Rapid Healing, Exotic>Mundane, costly abilities get limitations, cheap abilities get enhancements).

*scribbles*

Acting, IIRC, is the master skill for Faces. Everything defaults off it. Merchant, Diplomacy and Psychology are also master skills.

Diplomacy and Psychology sound quite useful for figuring out xeno motivation and how to fuck with them.

Artillery is the only IQ-based combat skill, and all kind of seeking missiles use it.

If Blaster Launcher equivalents exist, I bet they'll use this skill.

Like in RL, armor and weapons are not "balanced". Once the shooting starts, having an actual gun is way better than having a pistol, and armor is probably always going to be worth it.

It seems more realistic to have a talky person use a pistol... but I guess you could just have training in it as a sidearm type dealio.

Word of the Line Editor is that Total Klutz + Daredevil lets you reroll a critical failure ONCE, and the second time you fail that roll, you're hosed. With gun combat, that means you're risking falling on your face a lot when you're dodging enemy attacks, and possibly having your weapons jam. I would really not recommend this combo if you expect to have to engage in melee, because critical failures on melee defense rolls turn into critical hits for the other guy, and that's a good way to get insta-gibbed.

Yeah, it sounds too abusable not to be HRed, and if it is it's nigh worthless anyway.

With those point totals, you're looking at ST 10, HT 12, and DX+IQ = 30. Bias toward DX if you want to shoot people, bias toward IQ if you want to be talky. If you're a talky person, don't forget to pick up Charisma (5 pts/lvl) and Voice (10 pts), as both give bonuses to influence skills. Charisma is universal and will work on aliens.

Got it.

I definitely recommend Combat Reflexes, though it's not required if you have good IQ and are willing to take cover in ranged combat. Rapid Healing is less worthwhile to me: don't get hit, and use super-science medicine to heal yourself if you do. I'd recommend Fit, as it's in-genre for soldiers who exercise a lot and is a almost always on HT bonus (as in, the rolls you'll be making to avoid the affects of alien poisons, not to mention to stay conscious and alive should you get hit).

How useful is Very Fit for being inexhaustible?

ramuswagner is otherwise a good guide, but do remember if you only want to be good at one thing, high skill is cheaper than high stats. +1 to all DX rolls is 20 points, +5 to one DX skill (like Guns) is also 20 points. You're on a bell curve, so Guns-20 is much, much better than Guns-16.

Got it. What kinds of breakpoints should I be looking at?

If you think you'll be doing a lot of shooting, look into getting Gunslinger. Modern weapons have good Acc, so that's an a fairly large bonus, and the alternate benefit of ignoring the Bulk penalty when shooting on the move means you can run and gun with a sniper rifle and use it to shoot people who are grabbing you at no penalty (as opposed to the normal -5 or more).

The GM is disallowing Gunslinger to begin with, I assume it is incredibly godly?

[Silent Wayfarer]

Here's a sample sheet for a talky person, let me know how it is.

Stats (220)
ST 10
DX 14 (80)
IQ 16 (120)
HT 12 (20)

HP 10
Will 16
Per 16
FP 12

Damage thr(1d-2) sw(1d)
Basic Lift 10
Basic Speed 6.5
Basic Move 6.5

Skills (53)
Acting IQ-16 (2)
Body Language Per-16 (2)
Camouflage IQ-16 (1)
Carousing IQ-16 (1)
Computer Operation IQ-16 (1)
Detect Lies Per-16 (4)
Diplomacy IQ-16 (4), +2 Voice
Disguise IQ-16 (2)
Fast Draw (Rifle) DX-14 (1), +1 Combat Reflexes
Fast-Talk IQ-20 (12), +2 Voice
Guns (Pistol) DX-14 (1)
Guns (Longarms) DX-14 (1)
Guns (Launcher) DX-14 (1)
Leadership IQ-16 (2), +5 Charisma
Observation Per-16 (2)
Parachuting DX-14 (1)
Psychology IQ-16 (4)
Public Speaking IQ-16 (2), +5 Charisma, +2 for Voice
Scrounging Per-16 (1)
Shadowing IQ-16 (2)
Stealth DX-14 (2)
Tactics IQ-16 (4)

Advantages (60)
Combat Reflexes (15)
Fit (5)
Rapid Healing (5)
Charisma V (25)
Voice (10)

Disadvantages (-50)
Duty: X-COM Field Operative (15-, Extremely Hazardous) (-20)
Pacifist: Cannot Harm Innocents (-10)
Chummy (-5)
Weirdness Magnet (-15)

Quirks (-5)
Broad-Minded
Careful
Imaginative
Nosy
Responsive

220 + 53 - 55 = 218/250

[momothefiddler]

I'm worried that between 250 points and what I've seen of X-COM, the GM's considering you guys replaceable. See if you can figure that out, because it's a very different game at that point.

As a face, see if you can prompt reaction rolls wherever possible, and if you can, look into things like Charisma, Appearance, and having Diplomacy and Fast-Talk at 20 each. Admittedly, that's not a trivial expenditure on a combat char at 250 points, but that's most of your job done out of the gate. Having someone who's willing to look the other way when your equipment requisition form pushes you way past the fiat gear balance point is gonna be good.

If you expect to get in more than, like, one fight, Combat Reflexes is worth it. This is even more true in a gun setting, because dodge is expensive as hell.

I'm gonna assume you don't have access to Ultra-Tech, at least at the start, unfortunately, but see if you can trawl through High Tech to turn money into shooting bonuses. Note the text under Patron, indicating that gear issues to you temporarily for the purpose of your job (and then returned) doesn't come out of your paycheck, so between that and your face powers, you shouldn't have any trouble grabbing, for instance, +1 Guns, +5 Acc, and Infravision for $20k (HT 157).

Similarly, don't forget ammo. you probably honestly want several different types of ammo - if my X-COM experiences are any indication, you'll have big squishy aliens where you want HE, and fucking awful bug aliens with unpleasantly rigid exoskeletons where you want fuckin APHEX (I mean honestly out of HT you want HEDP rounds, but those are only for high-caliber guns so I'm guessing your heavy's getting those).

I gotta go but I'll drop in more info later if I think of it. My primary point is you don't have a lot of points so see what you can squeeze out of equipment.

Also, when gauging your effectiveness with your chosen Guns skill, consider range penalties. They hurt. Hard.

EDIT: didn't see your post while i was writing mine. will comment later. look into defaulting pistols off longarms

[Silent Wayfarer]

I forgot to mention, but the GM said he was collapsing guns into Pistols, Longarms and Launchers. Since they're Easy and I have a decent DX I figured there was no harm in spending a point each on all of them.

And while X-COM normally features very expendable grunts, in this case we're supposed to be elite type guys. Incidentally, how high should my Dodge be, as high as it can go?

[momothefiddler]

I suppose not. But you could put 4 points in Longarms for 16 and then have Pistols at 14 (where you are not) for free. Launcher unfortunately default at -4, so you're not quite off the hook but still.

---

Not... technically as high as it can go. Spend some points in other things, if only so you don't get banned. That said, you know that 95% chance of hitting you had in the earlier example? Say someone managed that on you. Now you're rolling Dodge (because it's a gun, so Block and Parry are useless, and will be the majority of this game I'm guessing). Your current Dodge is 10 - a coinflip to avoid a bullet that would otherwise hit you. Not bad. Your BS is at 6.5, so if you bring that up .5 (either directly or indirectly) that goes up to like 63%. And unless the GM's allowing the optional rule in... shit, I dunno, Martial Arts maybe?? Where Deceptive Attack can be applied to ranged weapons, the only thing they can do to get around it is shoot more bullets. Which becomes sort of a penalty to your Dodge. Point is you want it high but it's expensive (BS directly is the cheapest way to get it unless Enhanced Defenses is allowed, which it's not). That's part of why Combat Reflexes is such a big deal. But maybe bring your BS up to 7, at least? 10pts directly, 20 through HT, 40 through DX, with increasing other benefits.

---

Lemme elaborate on my earlier range comment, though.

You have Guns(Pistols)-14. We'll give you a Desert Eagle because why the fuck not, you won't be firing more than one shot a round with a pistol anyway and it's 4dpi+. You now have even odds of hitting a human at 10yds. You are as likely to miss as to hit. Range penalties suck ass. Of course, this is assuming you're attacking every round, which, coming from D&D, I thought was a reasonable assumption at first. But toss on a mini-computer sight (really only for the +1 to skill; note that the Desert Eagle has an Acc of 2 and thus it's Acc can't be boosted by more than +2) and aim for a second, you're up to roughly 95% accuracy. At 20yds you're looking at ~25% snap shot or ~83% aimed. Your longarms is gonna be the same for snap shots, but with notably higher Acc values (Steyr AUG, 5dpi, add the same sight and take a second to aim for +11, you now only fail on a 17+ out to 70yds), you're gonna be looking at much better chances after aiming. Which, I guess, is the point.

I sorta went off on a tangent there. I think what I was trying to say is basically if you wanna contribute to a fight you need to have better numbers or be very aware of your gear/tactics options.

---

I take it you already knew about reaction rolls? Nice choice with Voice there. You're currently looking at +9 from any non-predetermined NPC - +11 if you put 8 more points in Diplomacy - which means your worst possible result is fair prices and simple requests, and you have a 50% chance of halved costs, doubled payment, and loyalty to the death. Seriously, at this point you're looking at "talk to a random stranger, flip a coin, heads they'll die for you, tails they'll probably do anything but die for you". 'Course I dunno how your GM reacts to that sort of thing, but tossing hefty combat+racial modifiers on it could mean you're Earth's poster boy and everyone loves you without changing the aliens' behavior, which feels pretty XCOM-y.

[mlangsdorf]

I'd recommend Fit, as it's in-genre for soldiers who exercise a lot and is a almost always on HT bonus (as in, the rolls you'll be making to avoid the affects of alien poisons, not to mention to stay conscious and alive should you get hit).

How useful is Very Fit for being inexhaustible?

Well, it's 15 points to reduce FP loss on extended costs by half and to double your FP recovery rate. So if you expect to spend a lot of time running marathons under heavy loads, it's absolutely amazing. In most games, it's hard to justify the extra 10 points over Fit (Fit + HT+1 is the same cost but increases your Basic Speed by 0.25 and your HT skills if you have any).

You're on a bell curve, so Guns-20 is much, much better than Guns-16.

Got it. What kinds of breakpoints should I be looking at?

I'd answer, but Doug Cole has answered in fairly exhaustively:
http://gamingballistic.blogspot.com/201 ... gurps.html

Basically, Guns-14 is a realistic marksman, who takes a shot every few seconds with a scoped rifle and reliably hits targets at 200 yds. Guns-20 (plus techniques or Gunslinger) is a cinematic gunman who puts a bullet through a target's heart every second, or aims with a sniper rifle and hits the target on the first shot at a mile.

If you think you'll be doing a lot of shooting, look into getting Gunslinger.

The GM is disallowing Gunslinger to begin with, I assume it is incredibly godly?

It depends on the circumstances, but basically, it's pretty good.

Gunslinger lets you add Acc on all Attack or All-Out Attack maneuvers without Aiming first, so that's +3 or more on most shots (and going up to +8 or more when you get access to lasers and other ultratech gizmos). Alternately, if you have to Move and Attack, you don't get Acc, but you aren't penalized by Bulk (negating a -6 penalty is pretty decent). If you get grappled, you can shoot the guy without being penalized by Bulk, either. You also only have a -3 penalty to engage multiple targets (instead of the normal -6) without spraying fire and wasting ammo. So a Gunslinger with a tricked out laser sniper rifle is going to be murderous at all ranges.

Gunslinger might not go with your intent to be Face, though. You need to focus your points.

[Silent Wayfarer]

How useful are Empathy and Intuition?

[momothefiddler]

How good is your GM at running games where vague "some extra plot/npc knowledge" is at all worthwhile without breaking the game entirely? How likely are they to be reasonably generous with that sort of thing? In my experience, the answers to both of those are 'not at all' (seriously how often is there a clue that isn't a worthless freebie and also isn't The One True Answer? never)

But if your experience with those is not absolutely zero, maybe consider the Advantages.

Also it occurs to me that you're building really heavily face-wise, which is fine if that's gonna be A Thing. "XCOM Game" doesn't make me think there'll be a whole lot of face-ing, and even "you're a military squad" doesn't seem to give you a whole lot.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Yeah, which is why I'm reconsidering my mad emphasis on it. I guess I'll ditch those two then, but I can't think of good combat advantages. Maybe I should huck more points into gun skill. That breakpoint article was very helpful.

[momothefiddler]

I dunno what books you have/are allowed, but techniques can be nice. HT lets you buy targeted attacks as Hard techniques and buy off up to half the penalty. 'Course, if they don't have a head, being able to shoot them there at -4 instead of -7 isn't a big deal.

CQB might be a nice technique, and makes me think you could go shotgun and leave a nice bunch of points for face-ing. Your sweet ammo options go down, but you end up with like a +2 skill just 'cuz and an effective dodge reduction equal to your margin of success. Just a thought, not a recommendation per se.

But no, barring cinematic stuff (Enhanced Dodge, Gunslinger, TBAM), there aren't a lot of good guns Advantages past the basic Combat Reflexes. I recommend you put it in stats (probably affecting Dodge) or skills.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Which stats affect Dodge, anyway?

[mlangsdorf]

Dodge is Basic Speed, any Advantage bonuses, and penalized by encumbrance.

So DX and HT are the big ones, as well as Basic Speed (at 20 points a level). Relevant advantages are Combat Reflexes and Enhanced Dodge. ST comes in on the margins, by letting you carry more gear.

If you have free points (hah!), buying up your Basic Move can be advantages. Basic Move 8 lets you move 6 yds/s at light encumbrance or 4 yds/s at medium, versus 4 yds/s and 3 yds/s, respectively, for your allies with Move 6. It's actually a surprisingly effective choice for heavy armor fighters in the games I've been in. Probably less important in gun combat, but it can make the difference between reaching the good cover and standing out in the open getting shot.

I don't know what kind of equipment you're using or what the rules are going to be on carrying it, but try to be under Medium encumbrance for sure and at Light if at all possible. That means less than 40-50 lbs of stuff. It can be worthwhile to pick up a level of ST just to go faster with your gear - if you have to carry 45 lbs, then ST 11 is +1 Move and +1 Dodge for 10 points over ST 10. Alternately, try to sell your GM on the non-importance of ST and let you buy it for 5 pts/level. I'm doing that in my current ultra-tech game and the party's Face actually has ST 14, just because it's cheap. Given that they spend 70% of their time in mecha combat, it's pretty amazing he was willing to do that.

[momothefiddler]

Specifically, Dodge ends up being floor(Basic Speed) + 3, modified by (very few) bonuses and (a fair number of) penalties. mlangsdorf is right that encumbrance is a big one.

So to raise Dodge, you're looking at a few options:
A point of DX includes a quarter point of BS - 20pts, or 80pts per 1 Dodge
A point of HT includes a quarter point of BS - 10pts, or 40pts per 1 Dodge
BS can be bought directly per quarter point - 5pts, or 20pts per 1 Dodge

(See why Combat Reflexes is amazing?)

Now naturally a point of DX also gives you a hell of a lot of other stuff, HT gives you a few other things, and BS also grants Move, so that's good.

I still recommend getting your BS up to a round number, though. Another half point is 10-40 points depending on how you do it, and grants you another point of Dodge and Move, plus any secondary benefits.

[Silent Wayfarer]

In another game, I made a combative I-Cop for the Infinite Worlds campaign. I used the base I-Cop template in the book and messed with stuff.

I wanted to make him a broadly competent combatant, with guns and unarmed attacks at high levels. Language Talent seems useful for being able to talk to all sorts of strangers...

How did I do?

Stats (200)
ST 12
DX 16
IQ 12
HT 12

HP 12
Will 12
Per 12
FP 12

Damage thr(1d-2) sw(1d)
Basic Lift 12
Basic Speed 7
Basic Move 7

Skills (35)
Armoury/TL9 (Small Arms) 12 (2)
Electronics Operation/TL8^ (Parachronic) 12 (2)
First Aid/TL9 12 (1)
Guns/TL9 (Launcher) 16 (1)
Guns/TL9 (Rifle) 18 (4)
History (China) 12 (IQ) (4)
Karate 17 (8)
Shortsword 15 (1)
Special Operations (Cliodynamics) 12 (4)
Stealth 16 (2)
Survival (Plains)-12 (2)
Tactics 12 (4)

Advantages (53)
Combat Reflexes (15)
Fast Healer (5)
Fit (5)
Gunslinger (2H weapons only) (20)
Language Talent (spoken languages only) (8)

Disadvantages (-50)
Bloodlust (10)
Pacifism (Self Defense Only) (15)
Weirdness Magnet (15)
(10 more points)

Quirks (-5)
Broad-Minded
Congenial
Humble
Likes (Pretty Girls)
Responsive

Gear and Cash

30k basic

238/250 points spent

Should I try to get Enhanced Time Sense? How could I make this better? Should I try for the "free HT" dodge (+1 HT for 10 points, then -0.25 Base Speed for 5 points, -1 FP for 3 points, Easy to Kill for 2 points, I still have +1 to resist disease and damage and to all HT-linked skills.

[mlangsdorf]

I'd swap Karate for Judo, because hitting people with your fists is generally worthless, while throwing them to the ground or putting them in an armlock is useful. If you want to damage someone, hitting them with a sword isn't a bad plan. If you have access to the Martial Arts or Low-Tech books, consider replacing Shortsword with Knife and using a Long Knife (especially an ultratech version). You may also want to reduce Karate or Judo to 16 and spend the points on more Guns skill - depending on whether you consider yourself primarily a ranged or melee combatant.

I don't know why you would Rapid Healing in an Infinite Worlds campaign. You'll have access to better medical technology than sitting in a bed, hoping to heal up.

Language Talent is useful only if you buy skills in some languages, but you have 12 more points to spend.

The free HT trick might not work if your GM is enforcing limits on disadvantages. Otherwise, it's not an awful idea.

Enhanced Time Sense is possibly overpriced. I wouldn't bother sacrificing anything for it.

You should consider purchasing Fast-Draw for Rifle, Pistol, Ammo, and Knife or One-Handed Sword. Readying weapons takes time in GURPS, and those skills eliminate it.

last points: your basic lift is ST*ST/5, so 29 lbs (or are you using metric?), and your basic damage is thr 1d-1 / sw 1d+2. Still doesn't make stabbing or punching fools particularly viable (especially compared to just shooting them with a 10mm), but every bit helps.