What makes a satisfactory magic system?

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:23 am

So I've been doing some thinking. From my previous thread, I've figured that while some games have a passable magic system, I haven't found a description for one that's a good magic system. I've looked through Ars Magica and found it confusing as hell, and I've seen the reviews of Mage and Unknown Armies that are examples of bad magic systems. I've been punting some ideas around in my head, and am wondering, what do you all think it takes to makes a good magic system?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:33 am

i don't think i have ever found a good magic system.
it's either worthless or horribly OP. broken in one way or another no matter what. either too complicated or boring.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:51 am

Wiseman wrote:what do you all think it takes to makes a good magic system?

One that tells the stories you expect your game/setting to be telling. D&D fiction makes it sound like shooting lightning bolts and fireballs makes you a badass but in function it's weaker than a warrior shooting arrows and a wizard is more about summoning, illusions and teleport SWAT kills.

Another big flaw I see in some RPG's (Ok mostly D&D because that's what I'm familiar with) is when spell effects are written before general world effects such as burnging, slipperiness, and so on. I figure having a robust skill system for 'mundanes' to interact with the world and having a spell system that references those rules for their effects goes a long way in reeling in caster supremacy.

I'd say Shadowrun is very close to having a magic system that supports its fiction with some oddities at higher point value play. It's also a pretty flexible one in only taking up a handful of pages to deliver a multitude of spell effects.

After playing s'more Dark Souls I do appreciate the Vancian casting system of D&D more.

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I've been pondering how a MTG style mana-tapping system could work for a D&D type RPG as a general action economy system (so 'mundane' guys also use it)

silva · Post by **silva** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:17 am

I think what makes a good magic system is the same thing that makes a good system overall: rules that promote the kind of story you want to tell/play in.

So, for example, if you want to play stories where mages have world-shaking powers, Shadowrun system is a bad fit. Instead you will want something more like, say, Unknown Armies or Amber, whose rules allow you to do that kind of reality-bending mojo in a reasonably logical way.

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:50 am

Limits on what magic can do make for a good system in that they can inspire creativity & more worldbuilding - provided those limits aren't as constricting as D&D 4e and are more like those in Shadowrun (before SR5.)

Fast to resolve is obviously helpful. Clearly explained is good likewise.

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:06 pm

Shadowrun's magic system is very good. Most of the problems with magic in shadowrun are content problems, not system-level.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:45 am

Orion wrote:Shadowrun's magic system is very good. Most of the problems with magic in shadowrun are content problems, not system-level.

What do you mean? Mechanically in SR4, the evocation spells are a trap to use, since they can be dodged on top of being resisted. Given, there's other spells that suck as well, with certain spell effects being "top 10" and what not. Could be SR4 particularly, so I don't know if prior editions had more viable "lightning bolt" spells or what have you (when people could make it work at all anyway).

wiseman wrote: what do you all think it takes to makes a good magic system?

One that doesn't overshadow the other player character concepts, or at least isn't an exclusive system with all the toys (I.E. give the warrior-types fun toys too dammit). Also other characters can interact with the "magic" in the world in some way. So legendary blacksmiths can make powerful magical items, hermits make potions/elixirs/oils, ninjas w/magical traps/glyphs, and warrior types better suited to use magical items due to their prowess and lack of ignorance of the worlds "tech".

Also one that likely doesn't overlap/replace into other roles? So none of that nonsense where casters can take someones job and do it better. If they can substitute in that role in some way, needs to be worse than classes devoted to that sort of thing, without some devoted investment (likely making the resources not worth it, kinda like D&D evocation).

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:42 pm

Aryxbez wrote: What do you mean? Mechanically in SR4, the evocation spells are a trap to use, since they can be dodged on top of being resisted. Given, there's other spells that suck as well, with certain spell effects being "top 10" and what not. Could be SR4 particularly, so I don't know if prior editions had more viable "lightning bolt" spells or what have you (when people could make it work at all anyway).

Shadowrun's magic system isn't perfect, but mechanically it's pretty concise. Individual spells may very well be niche or under powered but generally speaking once you've read the magic rules you should at least know how to roll for and against just about any given spell and the notation for how long things last is actually clear and consistent. By contrast games like D&D and Vampire often have balance issues between individual spells plus spells so unique that they're are effectively separate and complex class features unto themselves like animate dead. It's lame that some of the Shadowrun writers were huffing paint when they wrote up the damage and drain codes for elemental spells, but at least we're talking about easily parsed math problems rather than slap fighting over what alter self gets you.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:21 pm

Yeah, the fact that Firebolt is actually hella lame in all but the most contrived circumstances is not a major problem with the system. Combat spells aren't very important, and the fact that there's only a couple of them that anyone would ever actually want (the stun and physical, single and area versions of Power Bolt and Mana Bolt, basically) isn't a big deal. The point of Shadowrun Magic is that it gets ten spells per page and has broad coverage with the spells it has. And it manages to do this without making it be particularly unclear what spells actually do.

Shadowrun magic is concise, playable, and coherent. There are certainly top ten lists for spells and definitely some spells that you will never ever learn because they suck - but actually game balance is pretty good. I don't know what more you'd even want out of a spellcasting system.

-Username17

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:20 am

also, if you massively reduced the drain codes for the elemental nukes, people would consider learning one.

Occluded Sun · Post by **Occluded Sun** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:12 am

One that permits you to make interesting choices. It's not fundamentally different than any other rules system in that way.

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What makes a satisfactory magic system?

What makes a satisfactory magic system?

Re: What makes a satisfactory magic system?