The Gaming Den Forum Index The Gaming Den
Welcome to the Gaming Den.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Google
 Search WWW   Search tgdmb.com 
Rewriting Some Classes
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> It's My Own Invention...
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JonSetanta
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 5076
Location: interbutts

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I love this Ninja you did.

Just like Tome Monk, it's a warrior class (or gish) easy to understand while containing its own combat mechanics.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Red_Rob
Prince


Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 2556

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've always loved the Gadgeteer and now one of my players is looking to play one in an upcoming campaign, so I guess I'll use this as an excuse to clarify a few things regarding author intent and expected power levels and such. I know I could just figure out this stuff on my own, but I wanted to know what Koumei's thoughts were before I went off in that direction and maybe tighten up a few things for other players that want to use it.

Firstly, it mentions that non-gadgeteers are not automatically proficient with Gadgets. Is this intended to do anything with Gadgets that aren't weapons or armor? Should the Defibrillator or Proximity Detector be useable by another party member, hireling or Summoned monster without penalty?

Secondly, should Gadgeteers be able to trade blueprints like Wizards trade spells? I would lean to no given how beneficial it would be. Perhaps Gadgeteers write their blueprints in their own uncrackable code like Da'Vinci and only they can understand them.

Finally, some points regarding the gadgets. The damage dealing ones seem to be on the weak side compared to other classes, was this intentional? In particular I noticed the following:

Shotgun seems a lot worse than Flamethrower. D10 to D4 per level, Save vs. Nauseated to Save vs Deafened and less than half the area? Being used twice is nice, but it still seems clearly inferior. It definitely doesn't need a ref save at D4 damage/level. I would either bump it to D6/level, or lose the ref save. It could probably allow you to go "both barrels" and use both charges at once over the same area and the Flamethrower would still be a contender.

Is the gadgeteer supposed to be immune to the Flare Lantern when he uses it, or just get the extra reflex save? Same for the Flashbang Generator.

Harpoon can be used as a Swift action once wound and deals D6 piercing/level out to 60'? Seems better than some dailies. Even compared to the Shock staff at 1D6/3 levels this is a lot more damage.

The Steam Spray deals D4/2 levels with a ref save for half - the save-or-suck is nice but at this point you have to wonder if it is worth it doing damage at all. If the shotgun damage is bumped this could do D4/level without overshadowing it or being overpowered.

Pressure Jetpack could be insane at level 4 when you get it, given the amount of melee only monsters at that point. Flight for an hour is pretty boss when wizards only get it for 1 min/level a whole level later. This + Crossbow seems pretty ridonkulous.

Is a 5' step sufficient to charge the Static Blade or were you thinking a move action?

The Shotgun is more bearable when Charged, although I'd still be tempted to bump it to D6 or lose the save. 20' cone isn't going to get more than 2 enemies usually and 10 average damage (save for half) at level 4 is pretty sad for a class feature. Ditto for the Frost Blaster and Flamethrower, which even at 1/encounter needs at least D6/level to be worth using, given it takes two hands and you'll waste a round switching weapons after using it.

The Turbine laser currently gets charged at the start of the day and carried round ready to fire. How about if the capacitor burns out 1 minute after gaining it's first charge if not fired? This means it only gets charged when you need to use it.

Makai cannon's damage is okay seeing as it's tagged onto a save-or-lose. Elemental Microwave on the other hand seems to have been battered to death with the nerf-bat. Full round action to activate then standard action to fire? D6 per 2 levels damage and 4 Int, with a save for half, and then if they fail that save they get another save or they are confused? So basically with this you spend multiple rounds and lots of dice rolls doing fuck all until you randomly get a save or lose off? I guess it's pretty boss against animals with the Int damage, but still. Compare this to the Aero-Amplifier at D6 Sonic/level and a save or prone and knockback. Reliable, decent effect and decent damage. I'd say the microwave needs reworking somewhat.

Charged Gatling gun seems a little weak what with taking a round to get started. With the Ref saves the damage is going to be spread out amongst team bad-guy which is usually suboptimal. I'd say this can stay at 15 dam/3 levels like the daily at least.

That should cover most of the ones that are likely to come up I think. I'm interested to know whether you agree or whether you think the other class features make up for the lack of good damaging gadgets.
_________________
Simplified Tome Armor. Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Koumei
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 12783
Location: South Ausfailia

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Red_Rob wrote:

Firstly, it mentions that non-gadgeteers are not automatically proficient with Gadgets. Is this intended to do anything with Gadgets that aren't weapons or armor? Should the Defibrillator or Proximity Detector be useable by another party member, hireling or Summoned monster without penalty?


It only applies to Weapon and Armour Proficiencies, so unless they're a Gadgeteer or Jester, they'd take a -4 penalty to smack someone in the face with the Defib but could otherwise use it just fine.

Quote:
Secondly, should Gadgeteers be able to trade blueprints like Wizards trade spells? I would lean to no given how beneficial it would be. Perhaps Gadgeteers write their blueprints in their own uncrackable code like Da'Vinci and only they can understand them.


The intent is that they have their own secret codes, or the way they work it out is just a bit weird and so it only works when they build it.

Quote:
Shotgun seems a lot worse than Flamethrower. D10 to D4 per level, Save vs. Nauseated to Save vs Deafened and less than half the area? Being used twice is nice, but it still seems clearly inferior. It definitely doesn't need a ref save at D4 damage/level. I would either bump it to D6/level, or lose the ref save. It could probably allow you to go "both barrels" and use both charges at once over the same area and the Flamethrower would still be a contender.


IIRC the Shotgun is "charged" (at will with a reload) whereas the Flamethrower is Daily, hence the awesomeness. If I'm misremembering then... I dunno, if they're both charged, then the flamethrower is a bit much, if they're both daily, then yeah, lose the Ref save on the shotgun, it's automatic damage.

Quote:
Is the gadgeteer supposed to be immune to the Flare Lantern when he uses it, or just get the extra reflex save? Same for the Flashbang Generator.


He should be, yes.

Quote:
Harpoon can be used as a Swift action once wound and deals D6 piercing/level out to 60'? Seems better than some dailies. Even compared to the Shock staff at 1D6/3 levels this is a lot more damage.


True, I'd change it to a flat 3d6 plus Magic Item Bonus (+1 per 3 hd).

Quote:
The Steam Spray deals D4/2 levels with a ref save for half - the save-or-suck is nice but at this point you have to wonder if it is worth it doing damage at all. If the shotgun damage is bumped this could do D4/level without overshadowing it or being overpowered.


Yeah, if you drop the save on the shotgun, bump this to d4/level.

Quote:
Pressure Jetpack could be insane at level 4 when you get it, given the amount of melee only monsters at that point. Flight for an hour is pretty boss when wizards only get it for 1 min/level a whole level later. This + Crossbow seems pretty ridonkulous.


Fair enough. Would you suggest shorter duration or later level?

Quote:
Is a 5' step sufficient to charge the Static Blade or were you thinking a move action?


Move Action or Charge, yeah.

Quote:
The Shotgun is more bearable when Charged, although I'd still be tempted to bump it to D6 or lose the save. 20' cone isn't going to get more than 2 enemies usually and 10 average damage (save for half) at level 4 is pretty sad for a class feature. Ditto for the Frost Blaster and Flamethrower, which even at 1/encounter needs at least D6/level to be worth using, given it takes two hands and you'll waste a round switching weapons after using it.


Yeah, fair enough.

Quote:
The Turbine laser currently gets charged at the start of the day and carried round ready to fire. How about if the capacitor burns out 1 minute after gaining it's first charge if not fired? This means it only gets charged when you need to use it.


Sure.

Quote:
Makai cannon's damage is okay seeing as it's tagged onto a save-or-lose. Elemental Microwave on the other hand seems to have been battered to death with the nerf-bat. Full round action to activate then standard action to fire? D6 per 2 levels damage and 4 Int, with a save for half, and then if they fail that save they get another save or they are confused? So basically with this you spend multiple rounds and lots of dice rolls doing fuck all until you randomly get a save or lose off? I guess it's pretty boss against animals with the Int damage, but still. Compare this to the Aero-Amplifier at D6 Sonic/level and a save or prone and knockback. Reliable, decent effect and decent damage. I'd say the microwave needs reworking somewhat.


Sure, change it to: when used, it's instantly a Fort Negates on: Confusion 1 minute and 1 Int Damage per 2 hit dice?

Quote:
Charged Gatling gun seems a little weak what with taking a round to get started. With the Ref saves the damage is going to be spread out amongst team bad-guy which is usually suboptimal. I'd say this can stay at 15 dam/3 levels like the daily at least.


Sure, fill your boots.
_________________
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Red_Rob
Prince


Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 2556

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
IIRC the Shotgun is "charged" (at will with a reload) whereas the Flamethrower is Daily, hence the awesomeness. If I'm misremembering then... I dunno, if they're both charged, then the flamethrower is a bit much, if they're both daily, then yeah, lose the Ref save on the shotgun, it's automatic damage.

They are both Dailies at level 1, then you get charged versions later. The shotgun damage being physical, and so running into DR, means it really doesn't need a save anyway.

Quote:
Quote:
Pressure Jetpack could be insane at level 4 when you get it, given the amount of melee only monsters at that point. Flight for an hour is pretty boss when wizards only get it for 1 min/level a whole level later. This + Crossbow seems pretty ridonkulous.


Fair enough. Would you suggest shorter duration or later level?


Actually, just making it take one or both hands to control (kind of like the jetpack from Thunderball should mean it is useful for mobility and some tricks without allowing no-risk archery.

Quote:
Quote:
Elemental Microwave on the other hand seems to have been battered to death with the nerf-bat. Full round action to activate then standard action to fire? D6 per 2 levels damage and 4 Int, with a save for half, and then if they fail that save they get another save or they are confused? So basically with this you spend multiple rounds and lots of dice rolls doing fuck all until you randomly get a save or lose off?...


Sure, change it to: when used, it's instantly a Fort Negates on: Confusion 1 minute and 1 Int Damage per 2 hit dice?

That sounds reasonable for a single target attack at level 8, especially as it takes a Full Round to fire.
_________________
Simplified Tome Armor. Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sigil
Knight


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

IIRC I asked koumei about the charged shotgun (as Utterfail) and it can be fired as an attack action, which makes it better than its d4 would indicate, as at 8th level you could do it twice with a full attack (16d4!).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Red_Rob
Prince


Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 2556

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sigil wrote:
IIRC I asked koumei about the charged shotgun (as Utterfail) and it can be fired as an attack action, which makes it better than its d4 would indicate, as at 8th level you could do it twice with a full attack (16d4!).

Yeah, I saw it fires as an attack action in the description. The thing is you only get 16D4 if you start your round within 20' of the opponent, and they aren't threatening you (ranged weapon!), and they don't have any DR. Then also allowing the target two saves to reduce the damage seems unwarranted, particularly when you think that 16D4 is only an average of 40hp. Looking at a random selection of CR8 monsters a Behir has 94hp, a Stone Giant 119hp and a Destrachan 60hp, so it's not like the Gadgeteer will be blowing away creatures left and right if you drop the save.

Although, it being a ranged weapon with an area effect throws up a few questions. Can you use Rapid shot to gain additional attacks? Could a Medium creature wield two Shotguns made by a Small Gadgeteer using TWF? Does the damage scale as normal weapons do for gadgets made by a larger or smaller Gadgeteer? One of the other players is playing a HoA Gunslinger so I can see some questions regarding the interaction of class features referencing guns and weaponlike gadgets. The Gadgeteer gets more Charged gadgets than they can comfortably use at later levels so I'm assuming the idea is they pass out rocket boots and shotguns to the party for doubleplusfuntimes.
_________________
Simplified Tome Armor. Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sigil
Knight


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's pretty much how the gadgeteer I played got used, as a support character eith moderate damage potential.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Koumei
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 12783
Location: South Ausfailia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Red_Rob wrote:

Actually, just making it take one or both hands to control (kind of like the jetpack from Thunderball should mean it is useful for mobility and some tricks without allowing no-risk archery.


Good idea, actually, jetpacks should require hands. Do that.

Quote:
That sounds reasonable for a single target attack at level 8, especially as it takes a Full Round to fire.


Yeah, against some things it becomes totally awesome, but using it against one dude in a mob is wasteful and you should use your shotgun or flamethrower or prinzooka then.

As for Shotguns as ranged attacks, perhaps they should work as Use Activated things and thus avoid all the dual-wielding and Rapid Shot. That said, with the double-barrel, Rapid Shot would let you go blam-blam in the early levels when you don't get two attacks, it wouldn't let you make three shots when you get 2 attacks +1 from RS.
_________________
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Aryxbez
Knight-Baron


Joined: 15 Oct 2010
Posts: 974

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
So, the Gadgeteer needs some tweaking here and there - such as to tone the power down, for one.


Pardon, but were the problems with what I believe was the *original Gadgeteer?* Seems like compared to the one I'm referencing, this class got a slight boost in its features (Specialty Field & Invention aside, given they've been removed here). Extend-O-Fist got boosted from original, Gained a new Good Gadget "Steam Hammer", Immunity to [Mind Affecting] 12 levels earlier (19th way too late anyway), and so on.

Given their removal, I can guess it has something to do with Speciality Field & Invention possibly escalating inventions to be rather powerful at later levels maybe?

*refers to this: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Gadgeteer_(3.5e_Class)
_________________
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries

"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Koumei
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 12783
Location: South Ausfailia

PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, Specialty Field was the real problem.
_________________
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sigil
Knight


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

On the Swashbuckler's Witty Reparte.

Quote:

Wittty Repartee (Ex): as she gains levels, the Swashbuckler gains various abilities that fall under the title of "Witty Repartee". These all work only when directing all attacks against one foe that round, and prevent her from making Attacks of Opportunity against other opponents until her next turn:


I'm assuming that you choose one of the options to use if you qualify, and that they don't all trigger at once, but the wording is vague. Are they all supposed to happen at once for a mega attack?


Last edited by Sigil on Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Koumei
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 12783
Location: South Ausfailia

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I had intended for them to all stack up, but that seems a bit excessive and boring, and also annoying to make a whole bunch of Bluff checks each round. In retrospect, if I cared enough I'd change it so each round you use it, you select one from Attack+Damage, AC, Saves, then add +1/+CHA, and that takes care of the first two bonuses. Then the rest would actually let you choose various things to confound your foe, such as double threat/double multiplier, add STR/CON damage, and things like that.

If each "ability" there has two choices (except the numerical thing at the start that has three options), you can basically make a simple two-column little chart thing and put tokens on it that you slide across.
_________________
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sigil
Knight


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's not excessive in the sense of being too powerful, but it will be a lot for someone to keep track of. I'll just allow them all to stack following the original intent, and if my player forgets to add some shit up, oh well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> It's My Own Invention... All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group