Guest DMing. Need help.

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:58 am

I'd suggest having a reveal that the merchant stole the artifact before anything else goes down. Trying to recover the artifact from the Merchant and destroy/return it seem like valid options the party might want to consider.

If the party does grab the artifact, you can suggest you hold on to it and then abscond with it.

This gives you a chance to escape without an on-screen death and/or complete your betrayal by summoning the demonic fish-armies. Perhaps with some line about how they're a sacrifice for the power you're going to receive from demon-Poseidon.

As far as what happens next they're going to kill a bunch of spawn. I suggest that the portals stay open for some time after they come out. If the portals keep opening and 30 or 40 demons come out, they could kill them all, but eventually they'll realize that they can't stop them all. They're going to have to go to the source.

Then we got all the Abyss stuff where they fight Demon Poseidon. But what could be good here is if Demon Poseidon totally betrayed your character. That sets your Necromancer up as a possible ally, but one that they certainly won't trust anymore.

Ultimately, there are a few possibilities. The most likely is that they defeat Demon Poseidon, the Necromancer helped so isn't killed immediately, but he nurses some grudge against the party because even though they saved his life he blames them for something (probably destroying his ultimate power by taking and destroying the artifacts) - so he can come up again later.

If you're taking over long term, you also have some power-vacuum stuff that can keep the players occupied. There may be demons that want Demon Poseidon gone and/or good guys that would support them. Throwing in one or two side-quests that can help them tip the odds in their favor... But if you're going to do anything like that, you need a delay before the portals achieve their full effectiveness. There has to be a reason Demon Poseidon doesn't send his armies all at once. You might want a MacGuffin that can banish/destroy his armies and he doesn't know where it is and is unwilling to commit his whole force until it is neutralized. Since he'll have the scrying ability for the entire ocean, probably not in the ocean is a good place for the artifact. Say the Coral Trident.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:54 pm

ubernoob wrote:... we've essentially planned a fall from grace / betrayal arc.

Bad idea.

I essentially turn from PC to NPC and turn on the party.

Definitely a bad idea.

Due to the story, I'm basically going to write a new character sheet and join the bad guys.

Making a bad idea worse undermining the whole point and removing all familiarity the other players have with your character and abilities, and undermining any faith they might have in the "fairness" of what is, lets remember, still a bad idea.

Then my PC will race them to the merchant so he can take the merchant

Do a stupid ass monologue at them first so it can all go totally tits up as the party angrily stacks on and shivs you for the stupid betrayal arc idea and throws the whole race for the merchant thing into total chaos.

The way I am planning it, is that the players will take to the sewers to beat my PC there.

Why the fuck... is there a subway down there? Because I'm not seeing what other sort of railroad manages to compel them to do that in order to get across town faster than something a god damn spell caster recently rewritten carte blanche as a DMPC can do.

At such point, my PC would burst through the door and do the villain monologue.

Cue fight scene.

The fight, and the monologue is late. How do they know you betrayed them and why did they race you accross town, and if you were bogged down in town why didnt they run you down and kill you then. Because again, that's what they do will probably do with PC traitors.

If the PCs win, my character "dies" (jk, he's a 'lich')

Did you read the whole "favorite edition" thread as a how to guide?

So you are pulling a party betrayal plot line (bad idea), carte blanche rewrite of your character (bad idea), and making it cock blockingly unkillable while doing so (spectacularly bad idea).

If the PCs lose

They get basically the same fuck you options. Seems kinda like that thing, a sewer, no wait, a railroad, I ALWAYS get those modes of transport mixed up too!

Plot forks look reasonable enough vs the amount of railroading?

No. Party focus on a betrayal arc is very likely going to be less on anything else other than eradicating YOU. Either cock blocking, scheduling or predicting some limit to the ends they will go to and the world saving they will set aside for later in the process is pretty much impossible to do.

With the exception of the cleric player, this entire group has never played a TTRPG before.

Wrong group to pull a "betrayal arc" on. I can't say this enough this whole thing is a bad idea. But pulling these shenanigans with a bunch of newbies? Really? What the hell made you think this is a good idea?

The BEST you get out of this is a confused group having an uncomfortable and meh experience. Yes, that's the best outcome.

And even that risks them quietly not asking you to GM again as they misdirect their vague dissatisfaction at the experience to your GMing skills rather than the really bad idea you are premising your GMing run around.

Worst scenario? Easily in reach? You get to be "That Guy" to an entire group of players for the rest of their possibly significantly briefer gaming careers.

RedstoneOrc · Post by **RedstoneOrc** » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:41 pm

I had a friend who betrayed the party once and got away with it. He then had the character disguise itself as someone else and went adventuring with them again. They later found out it was the traitor and quickly killed him and buried the body in a vat of liquid adamantine for good measure. They looked at him funny for a whole decade, not exaggerating. Moral of the story is don't betray the group unless you want to take shit forever OOC

pragma · Post by **pragma** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:09 am

Redstone and PL make some solid points; the players of PCs that betrayed their own my Shadowrun group still get shit after fifteen years. Note that Shadowrun is a game where backstabbing is somewhat expected. Further, long experience shows that PCs are going to go full nuclear once they realize that a betrayal is afoot. I've never played with anyone who had a patient trigger finger in game and no bad guy has ever survived even half a monologue.

That said, if you're going for a memorable game session, apparently a betrayal will stick. I'd say go for it, as long as the session is played in good faith and good humor I think players will enjoy it.

In your shoes I'd ditch some of the framework and fallout of the session while trying to keep the core experiences. If I'm reading right, you want a fight with your former necromancer PC, and you want a race through the sewers. Maybe you also want a demon invasion.

Try this:
The merchant reveals to the PCs that he has a vault with something important in it hidden in the sewer (because he's cocky, or trusts them or something). The necromancer tips off demon Poseidon about the likely location of the vault and soon the sewers are swarming with demons looking for it. The merchant reacts to this development by giving the PCs more explicit instructions to recover the artifact from a nice, trapped, set piece of a vault. The PCs do some kind of skill-based race with the demons to see if they get to the vault in an advantageous or disadvantageous position. Once the vault is open, the necromancer attempts to abscond with the artifact. He can set up the con by volunteering to "clear the traps with his skeletons"

This plot comes with a number of caveats, the most important of which is that you have to be OK with the necromancer dying, possibly in an embarrassing way. That caveat is especially important because this face-heel turn will only feel make any sense if you foreshadow it like crazy. PCs are notoriously bad at picking up hints (in my experience) so play up the necromancer's creepiness and dubious background. This emphasis on the necromancer's weirdness will be exaggerated by you not controlling him at the table. If you haven't used the animate dead spell yet (comes online at 5th level) now is a great time to learn it and show it off.

If you've done too good a job with the foreshadowing, the PCs will just stab the necromancer when they reach the vault, force him to stay on the surface, or hit him with a zone of truth spell. That's fine, it's OK to reward them for figuring out the puzzle. By the way, I agree with PL that it's better not to rewrite the character's sheet, the fun part of these twists is that the PCs can use accumulated knowledge of the traitor. (Speaking of accumulated knowledge, it is best if your foreshadow this stuff over several sessions. Here's hoping the arrangement with the GM included that foreshadowing.)

The second caveat is that the moment of the necromancer's turning of coat needs to be carefully considered. If you want to use the vault as a set piece for a fight (a good opportunity), then the necromancer needs to sense some good opportunity to flee, AND needs to telegraph that he's doing something sneaky. Demons engaging in combat with the PCs is a good distraction that he might take, and throwing skeletons into the fray to screen his exit makes the moment even more opportune while tipping his hand. Traps that are still active (and foreshadowed by blown up skeletons) could help to motivate him too. That said, make sure all of the parties you control act rationally according to their interests. e.g.: the demons should be chasing the orb if they see it, and might not deliberately block PCs unless threatened.

The PCs success or failure during the scene should lead to different outcomes because agency is great. All of your current outcomes point to diving into the abyss, which isn't level appropriate and doesn't give the PCs much affect on the outcome, but you could opt for the following:
PCs win -- have to figure out how to keep the artifact away from angry demons and maybe a vengeful necromancer. Where's a place that's inland and safe? How do they get there? Can they use it themselves?
Necromancer wins -- hightails it to his secret lair to use the orb for himself. PCs may give chase in whatever way they see fit. Demons may also be chasing.
Demons win -- PCs can set up the city's defenses or start hoarding for the apocalypse. Necromancer, if not dead, can be a dubious ally during this process because skeletons are always useful.

Backstory about the necromancer's exact deal with the devil will have to come later. This adventure is predicated on his reveal as a double agent and he's certainly not motivated to spout details in the thick of the action. Though it's worth noting that the necromancer doesn't even need to be in cahoots with Demon Poseidon for this setup to work: he's just giving the demon a call to get the merchant nervous about the vault.

A parting note, the fact there are demons in the sewer can be revealed through hilarious toilet humor.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:48 am

My two cents:

Avoid masturbatory plot arcs.

That's all.

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:58 am

RedstoneOrc wrote:They looked at him funny for a whole decade, not exaggerating. Moral of the story is don't betray the group unless you want to take shit forever OOC

Ahhh, in my group we refer to the practice of making a revenge PC as a "Snake Oil Salesman" in memory of an instance where one of my friends made said PC with the intent to betray the party. That was like, in the 90's and it still lingers as an in-joke.

And that's not as bad as turning your PC into a DM-penis extension.

Why do you even need to buff him up and make a lich? This is 5e and he's a necromancer. That's like, already a winning hand.

Since you're somewhat committed to this already, go with Pragma's outline and advice. It isn't just OK for your NPC to die, that's his job. NPCs are there to provide a brief challenge so that players are satisfied when they win. You don't benefit from rewriting the character, that just loses whatever value he it as a known quantity.

If you're set on a rewrite then you may as well kill off your character via the PCs efforts and have him be replaced by your rewrite as a lich that was pulling his strings (maybe via dominate, magic jar or just mundane leverage). The party will be invested in wanting to avenge your NPC despite his betrayal, allowing him to serve some sort of purpose and establishing a proper villain.

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:22 am

Listen to Pragma, Pragma is wise.

And what's with all the people nodding along to "People who betray the group IC become OOC pariahs"? Sure, every group's social contract is different, and sometimes stunts like that are done just to be a spotlight-hogging jackass, but if PvP is on the table at all, then be a little mature about it!

Some of the best gaming I've ever had has revolved around intraparty rivalry, distrust and betrayal.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:41 am

Turning your own PC into an unkillable NPC that attacks the party is like a parody of a shitty "plot twist" introduced by a new DM. I think Knights of the Dinner Table actually did something like that, and it ended badly.

-Username17

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:28 pm

Schleiermacher wrote:Listen to Pragma, Pragma is wise.

And what's with all the people nodding along to "People who betray the group IC become OOC pariahs"? Sure, every group's social contract is different, and sometimes stunts like that are done just to be a spotlight-hogging jackass, but if PvP is on the table at all, then be a little mature about it!

Some of the best gaming I've ever had has revolved around intraparty rivalry, distrust and betrayal.

It sounds like this is supposed to be a big surprise to the new players so I do not assume it is expected and within the norms. And unkillable DM NPC is totally a spotlight hogging jackass move. So that is why people are warning against betrayal. I'd give benefit of doubt if not for all the other context provided.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:53 am

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:59 am

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:03 am

Why have your character go evil at all? In the extremely likely event that people ask you to stop DMing, you won't have a character anymore. You're burning your bridges for no reason. Just have your character bow out temporarily to avoid conflict of interest. Mission in space or death in the family or something.

-Username17

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:22 am

FrankTrollman wrote:Why have your character go evil at all? In the extremely likely event that people ask you to stop DMing, you won't have a character anymore. You're burning your bridges for no reason. Just have your character bow out temporarily to avoid conflict of interest. Mission in space or death in the family or something.

-Username17

Waste of foreshadowing - unless you're saying the necromancer should go back on his apparently already made IC decision to betray the party.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:58 am

Inventing a clunky, lame excuse for the foreshadowing will cause significantly less damage to the group and narrative than a poorly executed betrayal.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:16 pm

Omegonthesane wrote:Waste of foreshadowing - unless you're saying the necromancer should go back on his apparently already made IC decision to betray the party.

Facing ... "Not Make a decision that is bad for fun game play?"

Means ...
"But it's an in character bad for game play decision!"
and ...
"But I made the bad for game play decision already ages ago!"
...
make for some incredibly slippery slopes.

Seriously. What incredibly bad GMing idea can you NOT justify with "It's an in character bad idea" or "but I already made that decision"?

As really bad as ubernoobs/his regular GM's collaborative fuck up is in bad GMing ideas... I can actually think of incredibly worse bad GMing ideas which could cop out with such incredibly accommodating excuses as those ones.

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:16 pm

Chamomile wrote:Inventing a clunky, lame excuse for the foreshadowing will cause significantly less damage to the group and narrative than a poorly executed betrayal.

Not even a need for that. If the necromancer feels honest, "I was going to sell you out for my own gain, then decided that that was an absolutely terrible idea and continued leading Poseidon on so that I could learn where his HQ is and what its weak points are or the like". If he doesn't, then much the same second half of the statement while claiming he was always actually loyal and just felt the party wouldn't believe him if he said it before having proved that.

I shouldn't have come out so harsh, I just felt that advice like "change your mind IC" should be spelled out explicitly.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:10 pm

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:50 pm

ubernoob wrote:That was kind of the point. The character is boring to play, and having him go out with a boom is a great way to retire the character. The way we've been playing so far, no PC is going to die without deliberately planning a death. So, we planned a death.

Do you have any concept of how petulant that sounds? Like, any concept at all?

Getting bored of your character and responding by going arrglebarrgle on the rest of the party is being "that guy" to an extent usually frowned upon by 14 year old boys on PVP servers.

-Username17

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:48 am

FrankTrollman wrote:
ubernoob wrote:That was kind of the point. The character is boring to play, and having him go out with a boom is a great way to retire the character. The way we've been playing so far, no PC is going to die without deliberately planning a death. So, we planned a death.
Do you have any concept of how petulant that sounds? Like, any concept at all?

Getting bored of your character and responding by going arrglebarrgle on the rest of the party is being "that guy" to an extent usually frowned upon by 14 year old boys on PVP servers.

-Username17

How much better or worse does it come out if he dies in a blaze of glory covering the party's retreat (from forces he might at one point have considered helping) instead of by stabbing them in the back?

Mostly as an academic question mind - my actual advice at this point bearing in mind what's been said is that he decides the going's got too tough and goes to live on a farm with his skeleton labourers, metaphorically speaking. And literally speaking if you can't think of a more sensible place he could be in the campaign that is neither "a PC" or "against the PCs".

pragma · Post by **pragma** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:04 am

I'm detecting a lot of negative sentiment about orchestrating a PC betrayal, and I'd like to understand it a little bit better because I don't have nearly as many reservations about this plot arc as the rest of you guys seem to.

Yes, there are deeply shitty ways to turn on the party. For instance, an unplanned betrayal in the middle of a plot significant fight 'for the lulz,' would be terrible. But if the PC's betrayal is the plot at hand, the session is designed around his eventual defection, and the heroes have ample opportunity to see it coming and avert it (or exact their revenge) then the campaign has gained a memorable fight and a tremendously familiar and personal NPC.

I think Ubernoob's situation sounds more like the latter setup than the former dickitude, and if I'm right then it could be memorable and fun. That said, I've only orchestrated double crosses from the GM side of the screen, so maybe I'm missing something crucial.

All that aside, I think there are probably better ways to liven up a character (especially a wizard) than killing it and starting over: wizards can develop obsessions, projects and ridiculous personalities on a very grand scale, and the necromancer described has a particularly big supply of pathos. For instance, having to actually play out staying loyal with to the party while fielding demon poseidon's angry phone calls sounds fun.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:27 am

pragma wrote:I'm detecting a lot of negative sentiment about orchestrating a PC betrayal, and I'd like to understand it a little bit better because I don't have nearly as many reservations about this plot arc as the rest of you guys seem to.

Most D&D characters don't have a lot of backstory and most D&D parties have even less. Your character isn't loyal to the group for in-character reasons, your character is loyal to the group because as a player you've accepted the social contract to ignore all that shit and skip to the part where you go out and slay dragons and haul sacks of gold around. Betraying the party means you flat don't accept the social contract to sit around eating doritos and drinking mountain dew while telling stories about fighting monsters and getting phat loot. It's a party foul worse than anything else you could possibly do in a game of Dungeons and Dragons, because once you do it people can never just have their characters meet up in a bar with yours and run off to fight gnolls. That can never happen again because you've broken that agreement.

-Username17

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:40 am

In the general case, party betrayal is not normally in-genre for D&D as she is played - the mechanics and setting are better suited to playing Hernán Cortés than Tywin Lannister. If an NPC double crosses the party, that's not outside the GM's expected set of actions as controller of the entire set of things the PCs would be expected to oppose. If a PC does so on the other hand, there's an inevitable feeling that the player has betrayed the team, and not everyone is able to get past that. If you've had the discussion about how the PCs have their own plots and schemes and are allowed to betray and backstab once in a while, that can soften the blow (and more importantly, can diagnose that this is not the game to do it in).

In this specific case, it appears to be the first game of a bunch of new players who have not had The Talk. This is their first exposure to an RPG, this will be what they potentially compare all future possible chances to play to. If they have a betrayal in their first game, they'll assume that keeping one eye open over your shoulder for another player's knife at all times forever is standard operating procedure and are likely to judge the worth of ever trying the hobby again with that in mind.

Also in this specific case, the proposal is that the player take over as GM for a week and have his old PC get a powerup and some new evil minions in the process of dying. So it isn't just "betrayal bad", it's also "DM's literal PC wank bad". (Which is a little sad, because if you want a solo traitor to even be an appropriate challenge to the party, you would normally need to give them a few buffs in a game more balanced than 5th Edition D&D.)

EDIT: Disclaimer - nearly all of the games I've been in have given the party at least as much backstory as "Mr Johnson has hand-picked you all for this particular job" so the social contract alone is not what motivates most parties I've been in. In parties without such an established IC motivation to play nice, an IC motivation to betray them isn't going to cut it.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:37 am

Ubernoob, I beseech you NOT to honor your nickname.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:47 am

Wait.

Has ubernoob just edited all his posts on this to nothing?

Has the RPG group rumbled his arguably terrible plans?

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