Graftpunk--Life's cheap, but the parts are cheaper.

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Graftpunk--Life's cheap, but the parts are cheaper.

Post by Prak »

Old idea of mine that apparently got nuked from the internet when WotC smeared the 4e dick all over their forums. The basic idea is to take D&D and it's grafts, and add a bit of Repo the Genetic Opera, and a bit of Cyberpunk.

However, now I can look to Tome to iron some shit out with this concept. Even if I have to muck with things. The idea is to treat magic items like technology, like Frank talks about here. One issue is that the eight item limit seems a bit limiting for a cyberpunk-esque game where people are assumed to be grafted-up. There's a desire for a person to have, at least, eight slots just for grafts (two eyes, two arms, two legs, a face/head, and a body) and still be able to use magic crossbows and swords and shit.

On the other hand, grafts could be re-written to work more like the Bad-Touched feats and less like magic items, in which case a system for gaining such feat-style grafts needs to be worked out to better fit the narrative, and a way to limit that as well.

And then there's the idea of wetware and skills... So I guess that could be a magic item. You get an Illithid Brain Link, and it has a small jar attached, in which you can put stuff harvested from creatures and specially enchanted to give you bonuses to skills and shit. So instead of a generic "+Disguise" item, you put a Doppelganger Mimicry Gland in your Illithid Brain Link and that gives you your +Class Level Disguise bonus. That would be a good fit for reattuning items with 15 minutes, and expository fluff is easy enough to write for that. I could see having something that allowed you to do similar with PHB feats if i could figure out a good cost for use of a feat. Then again, I need to figure out a cost for feats if I'm going to make Bad-Touched feats represent grafting, so it's in the neighbourhood.

So, yeah. That's a good track, I think. Grafts being items is weird anyway, and if you're buying inherent body upgrades you want WBL to be less of a thing, I think. Not gone, but definitely not as important.

One of the other tweaks I foresee being important is in cosmology. Cyberpunk often comes with distopian shitholes, and if there were other planes to escape to then at least the powerful people would, and the PCs might once they had that power. This could be mitigated by saying all the planes descended into distopian shithole-ness, but I think that might be a bit much for believability.

I'm looking at Dean's D&D Default Setting thread and I think one thing I want to do is sort of keep the idea of elemental planes--so that you have a realm of (possibly only seemingly) endless fire, except no one would live there. It's not The Elemental Plane of Fire From Which Elementals and Efreet Hail, it's "a realm of the platonic ideal of flame, which will never die for want of fuel" and similar for the other elements. No one goes to the elemental planes, but tapping into these "physical" realms with complicated technomagic is something that can be done if you need endless water/fire/fresh air/sand. So that eliminates sixish planes from the Cosmological Clusterfuck. I mean, the Ice and Wood planes aren't official, but I could at least see a use for "The platonic realm of cold." Makes sterling engines easier, at least. There's definitely no need for five fucking Heaven planes, or whatever, so I'm all in favour of collapsing those into a single plane. This also brings up the question of alignment. Cyberpunk seems to be mired in moral ambiguity, and Alignment kind of shits all over that. So Alignment probably shouldn't be a thing in Graftpunk, and Heavenly forces should be fighting a losing battle against Hellish and other forces. I'd kind of like to have multiple Hell planes to reinforce this hopelessness shtick where Good is losing and maybe doing not-so-Good things to try to fight Evil. Because hypocritical Good amuses me, and is almost a feature of D&D, intended or no. Given that I do want to take some things from Monte Cook's Chaositech (at least in concept), I think the other Hellish plane could just be a plane of Chaos. I know I want to keep Mechanus, or something like it, to go with the magitech/cyberpunk idea.

So... here's what I have going on in my mind for this, partially fueled by my love of belief-influenced-reality bullshit in fiction-
Powerful wizards and artificers refined the process of magic item creation to the point where it was just expensive technology. Then they found something which made it cheaper. Magically potent crystals led to a greater abundance of magical items, which made it easier to kill what used to be population-threatening monsters, and drove a second renaissance in component-based item creation. Manticores can still threaten towns, but they've learned that the humanoid races can be very dangerous, and it's not just adventurers running around with the power to drop them anymore, now there are Harvestmen, people paid by the guilds to hunt down monsters and bring back mass production quantities of their important bits. Magic item use exploded in this Magindustrial Revolution, and magic became less a thing weird powerful people did and more a reliable fact of life. There may be only one Teleorb in a village, but people know what they are, and particularly bright people might even know the basic metaphysics they run on. Slowly, but not as slowly as you might think, as more people went out to fight dangerous monster and returned with missing limbs and organs and more artificers were being trained to make more affordable magical items, it even became perfectly normal for people to incorporate magic items into their own bodies. It started with a few gleaming metal arms and legs, but with so many items based on monster anatomy, it wasn't long before even the people who used to be considered inhuman monsters after run-ins with Infernal Graft Machines were now only looked at askance because their tentacle was dripping on the rug.

As more and more sapients came to interact with magic items in their day to day lives, and rely on them, acceptance turned to a weird belief in applied magical technology. The learned knew how Teleorbs and ScryCells worked, but the common rabble just knew they did, and believed they would. For a time, Mechanus thrived as people started to associate these tireless items with clockwork. But when these items started to incorporate more organic parts, and even look organic themselves, that belief was shunted into bio-magi-tech as a force of its own. And thus a planar cancer came into being, creeping over hellish wastelands and placid celestial meadows alike. Its roiling, all-consuming nature made one think of chaos, and assume that it came from the use of raw chaos to make some items. Appropriately enough, no spokesthing of chaos has stepped forth to authenticate such beliefs, but the activity of chaotic forces, along with their seeming exuberance to make use of grafts and implants--or appearance of--does imply a truth to the fears. The wide use of these body modifications amongst the demons and devils and their mortal servitors might imply a similar responsibility, but many say, when they deign to say anything of them at all, that they merely find them useful like the mortals do, just even more accessible with the large population of magically powerful creatures in the forces of the Abyss.

The forces of Celestia don't like the idea of using grafts and implants that seem to correlate to the rise of the planar cancer slowly consuming their home, but they cannot deny the usefulness of such things, and many celestial soldiers and generals have at least one, often to replace an eye or limb taken by the abyssal hordes.

Mechanus, for its part, is oddly quiet about grafts and implants, and has, in fact, not been heard from for quite some time, if one does not count apparently rogue inevitables.
will post more later. Thoughts so far?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

What part of this idea actually requires it to be tied to fucking planescape mythology/cosmology shit?
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Post by Prak »

None? Did I reference any of it other than using a single plane name that has become vastly divorced from Planescape and become just "the plane of law and magic robots?"
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Prak wrote:None? Did I reference any of it other than using a single plane name
Lets see...
...For a time, Mechanus thrived ... a planar cancer came into being, creeping over hellish wastelands and placid celestial meadows alike ... think of chaos, and assume that it came from the use of raw chaos to make some items...no spokesthing of chaos has stepped forth ... the activity of chaotic forces, ... body modifications amongst the demons and devils ... magically powerful creatures in the forces of the Abyss... The forces of Celestia ... rise of the planar cancer slowly consuming their home, ... many celestial soldiers...eye or limb taken by the abyssal hordes ... Mechanus, for its part, is oddly quiet ... apparently rogue inevitables.
Yeah, no, lots more than one mention we have multiple planes, we have the law chaos good evil alignment system/wheel/factions/planes, we have the stupid demons/devils divide NO one gets, we have multiple mentions of the one faction/plane you thought you mentioned once and branded inevitables named specifically for all your "generic reflavouring".

Indeed, pretty much your entire frame of reference for your setting description is nothing BUT references to planescape and planescape cosmology. About the only thing lacking is the god damn lady of pain, (explicit) giant frog and the elemental planes.

I mean sure, if you want to go with the whole "Planescape, BUT NOW WITH CANCER!" thing you seem to want to do then fine, I'm just checking if that's what you want to do.

Because that's what you seem to be doing.
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Post by Prak »

Really? Because from where I'm sitting, that's just basic fucking D&D campaign assumptions. Yell at me to get off your lawn, or whatever, but I came into the hobby in 3rd edition, and that's all basic D&D setting to me. Except with planar cancer.
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Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Look in your actual excerpt of your setting write up did you describe or even name just ONE faction, "force", nation, organization or even loose group of individuals of any form that WASN'T an interplanar manifestation of alignment that is one of the main protaganist/antagonist groups in the planescape setting?

No?

But you named several that were? And talked about their interactions with the "cancer" of splat book item bloat organic grafts.

Yes?
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Post by Prak »

PL, by that "logic" the 3.0 Player's Handbook was a Planescape book.

Also, here's what I specifically mentioned in my first post about a setting I initially had the idea for around the time Repo the fucking Genetic Opera came out and could find no record of past being mentioned when I decided to try going back to it:
-Celestials
-Demons and Devils
-Mechanus
-Chaotic outsiders
-metaphysical manifestations of elements which are not places people can actually go
-a manifestation of peoples' belief in the functionality of technology that is trying to consume the multiverse
-Oh, and a magical industrial revolution.

So, basically, four common fantasy trappings, and three slightly unusual fantasy trappings.

Again, this setting idea is seven god damned years old. And the only reference I could find to it when I decided to start working on it again was a couple people who'd liked the idea on WotC's forums mentioning it. Because WotC fucked it's forums when it put out 4e. I've been able to find some a few bits I saved in my D&D folder when WotC decided it wanted to own any material posted on their boards, but it's just a few shitty items and a couple Illithid deities and none of the stuff I decided to have going on with the illithids for context.

I think I had some kind of "Fall of the Empire" deal going on with the illithids, where the plane was cooling. The illithid cities had actually frozen for some I-forget reason, and the elder brains were locked in frozen pools. But they'd also gained a measure of divinity and were able to grant spells to their illithid followers who'd descended into tribalism from their lofty high tech supremacy. One tribe was cannibalistic and blatantly based on Firefly reavers, another was more industrial and was able to keep their city cavern warm enough that their elder brain's pool wasn't entirely solid ice.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Wow, this went downhill so far and so fast after the thread title.

I was eagerly looking forward to a discussion of how you could do another cyberpunk to steampunk style genre swap by having the new technology revolutionizing society and overturning existing power structures with the skills of "punks" be based not on the (cyber) works of Turing, Von Nuemann and Hopper nor on the (steam) works of Charles Babbage but instead set in a world where the works of Doctors Viktor Frankenstein, Henry Jeckyll and Herbert West were not merely fiction.

Instead it's Prak's kinda tepid new campaign ideas and Phone Lobster hating on D&D planar cosmology.
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Post by Prak »

Yeah, definitely some tepidness. I started making the first post yesterday or the day before and between trying to find the original in some way and trying to think of something that wasn't so tepid, I only finally actually wrote a post today.

A lot of what I talk about in the original post would still hold true, I think, if I were to go with, er, Frankenpunk. There still needs to be something allowing people to kit themselves up with manufactured body parts that doesn't detract from their ability to wield magic weapons, the typical D&D cosmology still doesn't work, etc. Basically Frankenpunk would do away with broader cosmological concerns like Celestia fighting a losing war in favour of focusing solely on the material and what's going on in the cities.

Come to think of, that works just fine, and there's really no need to have a traversable multiverse.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Josh_Kablack wrote:I was eagerly looking forward to a discussion of ...
And I was somewhat expecting any setting fluff to be more like "In the land of Nasty Frankenstiens' this technology has resulted in the poor castes being crippled, ugly, unfit, and old while the rich nobles are young, healthy, beautiful and strong, if sometimes a little unconvincingly assembled and prone to sudden changes of appearance" and "In the land of Nice Frankenstiens' they ban the "used body parts" market this set them behind the times technologically and economically, UNTIL they learned to vat grow bodies/parts, now they do the best custom parts/integrated bodies/whatever but it costs more or something something rapid political/economic change whatever" or "in the land of furries other guys the "humanoid used body parts trade was banned" but poor speed of regulatory response resulted in just about everyone ending up part animal/monster."

Mechanically I was expecting... well not all that much, I mean if your starting point is Prak, 3.x Graft items, the stalled incomplete tome implementation of magic items and a complete lack of direction then it isn't all surprising that the end result is just Prak saying "item limits and the number of mutant arms I want sewn on... WHAT DO?"
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Post by Prak »

Ah yes, I forgot that OPs here are the end all and be all of concepts. It's truly unthinkable that maybe someone wants a bit of input on what's come to mind so far while they go off to think of some more stuff.

Ok, so here's what I'm thinking of with this campaign setting-
  • Grafts are ubiquitous.
  • Magic is technology
  • Grafts are high in demand, and you may seriously have someone jump you in an alley for your dragon arm
  • Two Layer Social Stratification- The Guild Nobles and Everyone Else.
Clearly I need to read/watch more cyberpunk and victorian horror before I work on this more.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Shady314 »

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Post by vagrant »

I approve of this. Keep working.
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Post by Orion »

Why does biotech automatically make you jump to -punk? There's plenty of good old silver-age sci-fi with advanced biotechnology. I'd start with whatever type of society you think D&D lends itself to and think about how that society would use biotech, not just try to shoehorn 1980's American corporatism into D&D.
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Post by Krusk »

You wanted to tie grafts to feats? Thats a shitty idea, you already only get 7 feats. dont force me to burn them to interact with your shitty homebrew content.

Instead just say "anyone can have as many grafts as they can afford. They are effectively slotless items." Then people might give a shit and use them.

Also drop most of the planar nonsense.

Youve got prime, hell, and the abyss. Prime is where pcs live and it sucks because hell conqured it milenia ago. Turns out ordered evil isnt the worst once you let it in charge. I mean life has no meaning, but they more or less let you have a job and make money so long as you pay taxes to support the slave mines. And you have no say, but to the general population thats not different. Hell is where the rich go and its sweet if you can afford it. The abyss is ~elsewhere~ and its filled with mindless rage beasts. They break into prime sometimes and it sucks, but the devils and their slave armies can keep it under control.

Now youve got two antagonistic forces who dont like one another, an established setting where life is cheap and the 1% are literally better than you. Youve also got an authority who is the worst if you want altruistic pcs to fight it, and youve got a general population that has grown numb to evil.
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Post by hyzmarca »

PhoneLobster wrote:
Josh_Kablack wrote:I was eagerly looking forward to a discussion of ...
And I was somewhat expecting any setting fluff to be more like "In the land of Nasty Frankenstiens' this technology has resulted in the poor castes being crippled, ugly, unfit, and old while the rich nobles are young, healthy, beautiful and strong, if sometimes a little unconvincingly assembled and prone to sudden changes of appearance" and "In the land of Nice Frankenstiens' they ban the "used body parts" market this set them behind the times technologically and economically, UNTIL they learned to vat grow bodies/parts, now they do the best custom parts/integrated bodies/whatever but it costs more or something something rapid political/economic change whatever" or "in the land of furries other guys the "humanoid used body parts trade was banned" but poor speed of regulatory response resulted in just about everyone ending up part animal/monster."

Mechanically I was expecting... well not all that much, I mean if your starting point is Prak, 3.x Graft items, the stalled incomplete tome implementation of magic items and a complete lack of direction then it isn't all surprising that the end result is just Prak saying "item limits and the number of mutant arms I want sewn on... WHAT DO?"
Nah, evert Frankenstein uses monster parts. They are the only ways that are statistically useful. it's just that some use pretty monsters, like Succubi and Dyrads.

I do see a huge demand for hunters, who basically murder who track down very powerful monsters and take their body parts. Start out hunting zombie hands at low level, work your way up to the Wand of Orcus.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Tome of Fiends has fiend feats that are basically "monster parts as feats"
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Post by Prak »

Krusk wrote:You wanted to tie grafts to feats? Thats a shitty idea, you already only get 7 feats. dont force me to burn them to interact with your shitty homebrew content.

Instead just say "anyone can have as many grafts as they can afford. They are effectively slotless items." Then people might give a shit and use them.
Er, no. 3.X has two ways of representing "I've got monster bits." One is as magic items that get fused to your body and started with the Demonic Graft Machine in BoVD, basically as a way that DMs could introduce grafts into their games even if players didn't line up at the Ripper Doc for them. The other is feats like Aberrant Blood, which are vaguely intended to show some measure of heritage, but could just as readily be used to represent players accumulating grafted on parts.

Grafts had a couple iterations, and the early ones are self contained and not uncommonly way over-priced. When Eberron started using them they put a limit of five on grafts, said you couldn't mix and match types, and said that you got something, usually some form of DR, that increased based on the number of grafts of that type you had. Unfortunately they were still commonly over priced.

The Bad-Touched feats came to mind for me because they wouldn't limit a character's ability to use magic items, or at least wouldn't be using the same allowance. They also typically improve as you gain more. Devil's Tongue, for example, allows you to take a standard action and force a target to save against a 1 round daze and flat footed a number of times per day equal to your Devil-Touched feats.

As a feat, it's a shitty deal unless your DM is letting you get more feats somehow, like through spending xp. Hence why I was talking about finding a gold price for them so players can roll up to the Ripper Doc and say "Yeah, here's X,000 gold, I'll take a Devil's Tongue, a Devil's Skin, and a Devil's Heart" rather than forcing players to only interact with grafts through level up.

So, no, not tie grafts to feats, make some feats into grafts. Other way around.
Also drop most of the planar nonsense.

You've got prime, hell, and the abyss. Prime is where pcs live and it sucks because hell conqured it milenia ago. Turns out ordered evil isnt the worst once you let it in charge. I mean life has no meaning, but they more or less let you have a job and make money so long as you pay taxes to support the slave mines. And you have no say, but to the general population thats not different. Hell is where the rich go and its sweet if you can afford it. The abyss is ~elsewhere~ and its filled with mindless rage beasts. They break into prime sometimes and it sucks, but the devils and their slave armies can keep it under control.

Now youve got two antagonistic forces who dont like one another, an established setting where life is cheap and the 1% are literally better than you. Youve also got an authority who is the worst if you want altruistic pcs to fight it, and youve got a general population that has grown numb to evil.
I'm not sure I want to make the Prime run by outsiders.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by TheFlatline »

Josh_Kablack wrote:Wow, this went downhill so far and so fast after the thread title.

I was eagerly looking forward to a discussion of how you could do another cyberpunk to steampunk style genre swap by having the new technology revolutionizing society and overturning existing power structures with the skills of "punks" be based not on the (cyber) works of Turing, Von Nuemann and Hopper nor on the (steam) works of Charles Babbage but instead set in a world where the works of Doctors Viktor Frankenstein, Henry Jeckyll and Herbert West were not merely fiction.

Instead it's Prak's kinda tepid new campaign ideas and Phone Lobster hating on D&D planar cosmology.
My friend picked up an RPG years ago called Ripper where you basically played a supernatural monster hunter that would harvest bits and bobs to make themselves more lethal against the baddies. It seemed interesting but we never played it.

Huh... I guess it's a Savage Worlds setting or something according to google-fu

https://www.peginc.com/product-category/rippers/

Still, the idea of a Victorian ripper game isn't without merit.
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