[Shadowrun 5] On the playability of Matrix

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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking »

silva wrote:Stop behaving like a frustrated writer wannabe and grow up. The whole fucking world agrees SR5 has the most playable matrix ever, regardless of what you keep repeating. The fact you were not invited to work on it only proves your delusion about your own design/writting prowess.

Oh, and clean up the spite juice flowing from you mouth.
Fallacy Ad hominem.

I just filled my Bingo card. Thanks Silva. I knew not putting you on ignore would pay off!

Edit - Sonnuvabitch - almost missed it.

Argumentum ad populum. It was twofer.
Last edited by deaddmwalking on Thu May 07, 2015 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by silva »

You're welcome, pal. :wink:

Im tired of his senseless criticisms. Everybody in the world already understood what the RAI is (just read Relentless Imp post in the last page), but the guy must keep on trying to denigrate the game out of pure spite (or delusion). Probrably to promote some hack of yours or denigrate the game official authors. Such behavior is opportunistic at best, anti-ethic and dishonest at worst.
Last edited by silva on Thu May 07, 2015 8:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Orion »

Arguing with Silva is like arguing with Straussians. I men, that's insulting to Straussians. But instructive about Silva.

Exalted superfans are the true Straussians of the RPG world, which I say with the mixture of respect and pity I have for the real deal.
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Post by virgil »

Did somebody knock the dicks out of silva's mouth and piss in their cheerios or something? Maybe the anger was there before, but it's hard to tell since I only see what others quote, but it seems like someone lost their cool.
Last edited by virgil on Thu May 07, 2015 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DSMatticus »

"The reddit example looks right."
"It isn't."
"WHO ARE YOU. WHO ARE YOU. YOU'RE NOBODY FRANKIE AND YOU NEVER WAS."

Gettin' Jersey up in here. Quality post.
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Post by silva »

1/10.

Try harder.

(perhaps stop fellating Frank will help ya)
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Post by nockermensch »

virgil wrote:Did somebody knock the dicks out of silva's mouth and piss in their cheerios or something? Maybe the anger was there before, but it's hard to tell since I only see what others quote, but it seems like someone lost their cool.
He's getting saltier, it seems.
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Post by kzt »

silva wrote:The whole fucking world agrees SR5 has the most playable matrix ever, regardless of what you keep repeating.
So you and who else composes "the whole fucking world"? Every version of the SR matrix is a pile of crap, and it has gotten more crappy with every version ever since SR4. SR4 might have been a marginal improvement over SR3 (I really can't remember any more exactly how SR3 fucked up the matrix), but both still sucked if you were actually trying to use the rules.
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Post by TheFlatline »

RelentlessImp wrote:
TheFlatline wrote:So you're running with the spam filter actually being more intelligent than the hacker.

JFC.
Unfortunately, that does look like the rules they wrote. Or at least meant to write but couldn't due to reasons of false verisimilitude broken by having written it in the first place.
I fucking LOVE this because of how bad it is.
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Post by phlapjackage »

silva wrote:Everybody in the world already understood what the RAI is
Seems like Oberoni here too...

Look, I don't care what the RAI is. I care about buying a book and having that book contain well-written rules that I don't have to try to divine the author's intention. I paid money for written rules, not rules that I try to extrapolate on my own time and effort and maybe differ from someone else's interpretation.

Any discussion on this site where you use the word "RAI" to defend a game means you automatically lose the discussion.
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Post by Dean »

fbmf wrote:
silva wrote:I agree with RelentlessImp assertion. SR5 is one of the more badly written books I've read and the Matrix chapter is the most emblematic to this.

*Edit*: The Reddit example of play looks spot-on to me. The only strange thing is the damage done in the end, which looks too high.
I'm confused. Earlier you implied that SR 5E was the best edition. What made you change your mind?

Game On,
fbmf
Remember how he's an admitted troll? Remember when he used to start all those "Top 3" threads which would all literally start with "We all know D&D 3.E and Shadowrun are the worst designed games ever, but what else would be on your list?". Remember how he's never answered a single question of yours? Why why why would you expect his views to result from a logical set of internal beliefs. The things he says here are designed for here to say things that he thinks will successfully troll people here. Because he is a troll. His beliefs won't make sense thread to thread and you can't call him out on anything because he doesn't care, isn't here to talk with you, and is a troll.

He is a troll. There is no reason to be calling silva out unless you plan on grilling the kitchen sellers on if they really think their kitchens are a great value.
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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking »

I would certainly agree that if he has time for these posts, he probably has time to answer some questions he totally promised he would answer as soon as he did have time. Failure to do so would seem to indicate that he's deliberately trolling.
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Post by John Magnum »

Why do people feel the need, after literal years of silva's posts, to do this shit. Why do you need to go "Mmmmaha, yes, this behavior finally proves that silva's Really A Troll." C'mon.
-JM
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Post by DSMatticus »

This isn't really a RAW vs RAI debate. RAI often gets brought up as a defense because obviously no one intends to say something stupid, so if the RAW is stupid then the RAI must be something else. It's blanket immunity for every mistake you could ever possibly make. Actual RAW vs RAI debates are about shit like communication errors where the language is ambiguous or unclear, or the concept is complicated enough that the author made a genuine fuck-up in expressing it. RAI is not "because the author didn't realize he was writing two rules that combined together into stupid, he can't have intended for those two rules to combine together into stupid, ergo the RAI must have been something not stupid all along. Also we have always been at war with eastasia."

The RAI is that:
1) You ignore unimportant bullshit. We know this is the RAI because it is incredibly explicit that this is what you do.
2) You can copy the matrix icon of unimportant bullshit onto your important bullshit, specifically for the purpose of forcing people to take time to inspect your icons to find the important ones. We know this is the RAI because it is incredibly explicit that this is a thing you can do, and it is incredibly explicit about how this is meant to fool people who don't spend time investigating icons.

Both of those rules are working as intended, in that the concept that the author had in mind has been expressed accurately on the page for the reader to use. There's no RAW vs RAI debate here. There's just two rules that together make stupid because no one has bothered to stop and think about the SR matrix problems for three editions.
John Magnum wrote:Why do people feel the need, after literal years of silva's posts, to do this shit. Why do you need to go "Mmmmaha, yes, this behavior finally proves that silva's Really A Troll." C'mon.
I'm pretty sure we're just hoping fbmf will ban him. Not that I really care all that much. That "ignore silva threads" script has been amazing.

... or so I say in the middle of a Silva thread. I guess you really can't save a determined end user from their own stupidity.
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Post by momothefiddler »

John Magnum wrote:Why do people feel the need, after literal years of silva's posts, to do this shit. Why do you need to go "Mmmmaha, yes, this behavior finally proves that silva's Really A Troll." C'mon.
Shadzar withdrawal's finally getting to us.
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Post by Username17 »

I assume that the rant DDMW copied was silva attempting to ape the house style here. Whatever.

Anyway, the parts of the Matrix in SR5 that don't work from a RAW or RAI standpoint are "all the parts." We just focus on Infinity Mirror because it is the first part. You disguise your icon as a NERPS ad, and then no one can interact with you until they "take the time" to identify all the icons. And "the time" is measured in hours of game time and literally tens of thousands of die rolls. That's what the rules actually are, and that's how they are "intended" to work, and it's completely fucked. Disguising yourself as an unimportant icon is simply the "I Win" button of the matrix. You will never beat that and no one will even begin to try.

But every other part is also similarly fucked. The game hits a stop codon on the pre-battle perception tests. But even if you handwaved that, the next part is also a stop codon. To hack something, you need to put marks on it. But the defender already has marks on their own stuff, and are entitled to know how many total marks there are. So to do any hacking at all you need to put marks on a target and the opposition then knows you are acting against them because the marks incremented for no reason. Hacking secretly is simply not even possible. There is, by design, no way to secretly mark things and no way to accomplish anything without marks.

Once you get access to something, you can "do stuff." What that stuff is or how that "stuff" might be accomplished is anyone's fucking guess. There's some sort of RAI argument you could make there, where you insist that whatever ideas you pulled out of your asshole are what the authors "intended" to be the procedure here despite that what was actually written is incomplete and contradictory. Because you're a fucking telepath or whatever.

But that procedure doesn't even matter, because actually anyone can be kicked out of anything by just rebooting, which sets all hostile hack marks to zero. So all your hack actions for however many turns can't do anything more than create a couple of seconds of downtime for individual devices. We know that's RAI because that's in the god damn full page hacking example.

Image
All hack targets are Wobbuffet.

And then afterward, there's incredibly complicated and stupid GOD accounting. It's based on what things you do while in a particular wireless plan while not in a particular node. But your actions aren't clearly defined as being in or not in nodes you're interacting with, so that's all so much gibberish. None of the examples anyone has ever put together have actually even attempted to do GOD accounting correctly, so I'm pretty sure the RAI is to simply handwave it and periodically stomp on your players for no damn reason just to remind them that you're the GM and can do what you want. But since getting blown up basically just makes you reboot, and that scarcely matters, that still doesn't matter much.

So no one can find you and you can't find important macguffins. Also you can't secretly hack into anything because the act of getting access automagically tips your hand that you're doing it. Also, hackers can't really do anything except force people to reboot their connections, meaning that no hacker attack of any power or skill ever amounts to much more than a slightly annoying DOS attack.

And... that's hacking. It doesn't work. It doesn't work at any level. There is no amount of zooming in or out that can make it work. It's not bad numbers plugged into a good concept or good numbers plugged into a bad concept. The numbers and the concept are both bad to the point of unsalvageability. Every step of the hacking process is unworkable, both in the sense of taking too long to resolve and in the sense of giving outputs that are bullshit even on their own terms.

There is not one paragraph in that entire bloated piece of shit chapter you would want to keep when you inevitably had to rewrite it from scratch. There is no concept introduced in this edition that is good or usable.

-Username17
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Post by silva »

So, Data Trails, the official matrix supplement is out. Anyone got a look on it ?
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Post by Longes »

silva wrote:So, Data Trails, the official matrix supplement is out. Anyone got a look on it ?
Image
It's kinda like that.
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Post by Longes »

All technomancers get out of Data Trails are two new qualities and five complex forms. There are no new Technomancer streams. There are no Paragons.
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Post by Longes »

Also the book is written by 8 people and 2 editors.
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Post by RelentlessImp »

silva wrote:Im tired of his senseless criticisms. Everybody in the world already understood what the RAI is (just read Relentless Imp post in the last page), but the guy must keep on trying to denigrate the game out of pure spite (or delusion). Probrably to promote some hack of yours or denigrate the game official authors. Such behavior is opportunistic at best, anti-ethic and dishonest at worst.
I'm a little late, but. Fuck you. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. My hate for everything you say fills me with the power of fucking Darkness the likes of which only Kingdom Hearts can dispel.

Writing shitty rules and expecting the players to mind caulk it is no excuse for writing shitty rules that expect you to mind caulk them. Rules should work out of the box without requiring the players and the MC to come to a consensus on a fucking interpretation of what was written. The fact that they wrote this is a crime against game design. The fact that they kept writing is a crime against the English language. And the fact that nobody at Catalyst, or any fucking tabletop dev company, understands the meaning of the phrases 'economy of language' and 'simplicity of design', is a fucking crime against their customers, and is only barely disqualified as being a hate crime.

People can, and have, written rules better than this for free. SR5 has the most incomprehensibly unplayable Matrix rules that, AS WRITTEN, require you to roll thousands of times just to reach the point of rolling initiative. It magnifies all the problems of SR4's Matrix rules and doubles down on stupidity in every conceivable manner. The fact that people are saying, without irony and in all seriousness, that SR5 is the most playable edition ever, is that they are still mind caulking 4th edition over the top of 5th edition, because every fucking game report I've read reads like 4E, not the terrible, awful shit they've written for 5E. And the fact that they've chosen to use 4th Edition Matrix rules in place of 5th edition tells you all you need to fucking know about the 5th Edition Matrix.

In short, go fuck yourself, and take some classes on rational goddamned thought and logic.

In addition, are you honestly decrying someone as dishonest, anti-ethic and opportunistic in defense of Catalyst Game Labs? A game company that refused to pay freelancers and royalties and one of whose owners embezzled the company to the tune of $850,000? Jesus christ, are you that fucking stupid?
Last edited by RelentlessImp on Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Longes »

Data Trails p.58 wrote:SPECULATIVE DATA GATHERING
Vacuuming up paydata that isn’t related specifically to a
job is, mostly, an outright act of greed. There might be other
mitigating factors to take into consideration, but doing it just for
the extra few nuyen to go on the credstick is just how it goes.
Doing so, however, means that the runner team is heading
deeper down the “cold-hearted bastard” end of things (p. 376,
SR5). This should affect the monetary end of things when all
is said and done, as the runners pawn the paydata through a
regular fixer or a specialized fence known as a datamonger.
Note that this will likely also adjust the Karma payout at the
end of the gig, which may or may not annoy the rest of the
team.
Of course, the opposite is also true. The decker can adjust
or outright erase files that will give them no monetary reward
but will make them feel better about themselves, as well as
trying to strike a blow against the corporations that rule the
Sixth World. Corrupting information such as onerous loan
records, forged blackmail, or even minor things like traffic
tickets can edge the decker towards the “good feelings”
portion of shadowrunning.
Those actions—stealing extra data or erasing it—raise the
risk of increasing a decker’s Notoriety (p. 372, SR5) as those
actions will increase the amount of heat put onto deckers in
general, and the run performed in particular, as well as running
the risk of pissing off the Mr. Johnson.
In the end, everything has a price. What is yours, and what
will it be paid in?
I have no words.
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Post by Longes »

While we weren’t looking, GOD created something …
new. Something entirely new. Some of us have started
calling it the Foundation. Frankly, none of us truly know
what this is, and we certainly don’t have a full understanding
of how it works. The Foundation, in my watery
analogy, would be the sand underneath the water. The
Foundation connects every single island out there—every
single host. It’s like the underlying infrastructure. If a host
is a lightbulb, the Foundation is the power grid. When we
log into the Matrix, we log into a grid. That’s fine. That is
not what I’m talking about. The Foundation is underneath
the grid. All hosts are made from the Foundation. If a host
is a cyberarm, the Foundation is the chrome.
Unfortunately, that’s about as clear as I can be. We just
don’t understand it. Now, I know plenty of hackers out
there that simply won’t stand for something they don’t
understand. So yes, I also know plenty of crusaders that
have gone out and performed, at great risk and peril,
raids against GOD servers. I know a few individuals, who
shall remain nameless, that have kidnapped, tortured,
and interrogated GOD-affiliated Matrix engineers to get
to the bottom of this. What emerges from this is chillingly
disturbing: It would appear nobody understands the Foundation.
Even the masters of the Matrix, the powers-thatbe
that supposedly control things, don’t seem to exactly
know what’s going on. Nobody wants to appear ignorant,
so they all pretend they know, but nobody ever goes into
detail. Best we can tell is that the Foundation is the raw
power of all combined devices in the world.
Matrix is literally magic now.
/goes to froth at the mouth/
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Post by Longes »

Reading Data Trails is best described as opening a book and having dicks spring out from every page slap you in the face.
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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking »

You say that like that's a bad thing.
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