Why can't 3.x skill monkeys have nice skills?

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koz
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Post by koz »

Have you added these newly-written skills to the first post? If not, could you please? It would make them all much easier to locate.
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TarkisFlux
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Post by TarkisFlux »

Yeah, they are. And anything new will be as well. If I ever hit the post length cap I'll put links in the 1st post to the whatever isn't included in it.

Speaking of, I'm well over 50k characters for that post, and have no idea what the actual limit is at this point... here's hoping it doesn't break anything before I'm done...
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

TarkisFlux wrote:I'd actually be interested in whatever you figure out Avoraciopoctules. It'd be nice to see how much they cover on their own and how extensible they are. If you don't think it's especially relevant and don't want to derail, can you PM me instead?
Avoraciopoctules wrote:Sure. I should have something in no more than a week or so.
Made a new thread for my work in progress: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49884
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Post by TarkisFlux »

So... close... to... finished...

I merged ride into animal handling, because it didn't do enough on it's own and some of the tricks you can do with it are more in line with animal handling than survival or something else. Still, if you don't like the idea of characters who can ride in combat also being good at getting other animals to do stuff, I suggest the following change:

Make Mounted Combat a [Combat] feat that scales off of BAB. Add the following line at the beginning of the 0 BAB bonus: "You may use your base attack bonus in place of ranks in animal handling for any riding check you are asked to make." It benefits warriors more than riders at this point and no longer requires them to invest anything in riding, but I'm pretty much ok with that.

Animal Handling
Untrained Uses:
Ride – You can ride a mount, whether it’s running, swimming, or flying. This is generally a free action or part of another action, but you may have to work to keep less trained horses under control. The DCs for the actions you can push a mount to do are included in the table below. Some combat actions require a mount to be trained to be trained for use in combat, and you suffer a -10 penalty on animal handling checks if you use a non-trained mount. If you fail the check to perform the action by 5 or less, you must spend a move action on completing the task.

You can also stand on your mount while riding with a DC 20 check. You can perform actions while standing on your mount if you accept a -10 penalty to your check. If you fail a check by more than 5 while standing you fail the attempt and also fall off.

Rank 4 Uses:
Train Animal – You can train animals for a certain task or teach them specific tricks. You can also rear wild animals so that they become slightly domesticated. The DC is the basic training DC of the task (all in book dropped by 5), plus the CR of the animal. You can also train magical beasts if you take a -3 penalty to your result, and vermin if you take a -6 penalty. You gain a bonus or penalty to this roll based on the animal’s attitude towards you.

You make the check before you begin training the animal. If you meet the DC, it takes one week to train the animal. If you exceed the DC by more than 5, you train the animal in just three days. If you exceed the DC by more than 10, you train the animal in one day. If you fail the check by 5 or less, it takes two weeks to train the animal. If you fail the check by more than 5 the animal is unable or unwilling to learn the trick from you. This result is the length of time you have to invest to teach the animal the trick, whether you start tomorrow or next year. You can not retry this check until the situation improves, such as you increasing your maximum rank in the skill or the animal’s attitude towards you changing positively.

You can not train any creature with an intelligence score of 3 or above. Those creatures are actually sentient, and can’t be ‘trained’ to perform tricks in this way. You can show them the trick, provide incentives to perform it on command, and help them to get it right, but that’s about it. There are no hard and fast times for a creature to learn these things. If they like you they’re more willing to learn or perform tasks, and if they hate you they may never learn it at all.

Rank 6 Uses:
I’m A Friend – Animals like you. With a successful animal handling check opposed by 1d20 + the creature’s CR + their Chr modifier you positively change the attitude of an animal by one step. You can change the attitude of a magical beast with a -3 penalty, and vermin with a -6 penalty. For each 5 points that you exceed their check by, you can shift their attitude one additional step. In no case can you shift an animal’s or beast’s attitude beyond helpful. This action requires 1 minute (10 full round actions), though it can be rushed if you accept a -10 penalty. You can affect no more animals than your ranks in animal handling at one time.

This shift is a natural shift in attitude, and is not enforced by anything. If you mistreat or disappoint an animal while their attitude has been changed, they are likely to respond more negatively than before. Even if you don’t mistreat them, their attitude will likely revert back to its original level unless you spend time earning it.

You may not retry this check during the same encounter, but you may use it on a beast multiple times over multiple meetings. It is very difficult, however, to repeat the effect and make progress with a creature you have previously used this ability on. After the initial time you use this on an animal, they are treated as Hostile for purposes of this check (though their actual attitude towards you may be different).

Rank 8 uses:
Whoa There – A hungry, rabid animal is more likely to see you as a meal or a target than something to be avoided. With just a moment, you can delay a hostile animal or magical beast from attacking you, as long as they do not speak your language. As a standard action, you can make an animal handling check opposed by 1d20 + the creature’s CR + their Chr modifier. If you succeed, they will not approach within 10 feet of you nor attack you before your next turn. If you wish to delay them after that point, you must succeed on the opposed check again on your next turn or give them some other reason not to attack, such that they change their mind on their own. Any obvious attempt at escape as well as any obviously aggressive action by you or your allies automatically ends this effect, leaving the animals free to do as they like.

Rank 10 uses:
Through The Hoop – Animals like doing what you ask of them. If you exceed your training check DC by 15 or more, you can teach them a trick in just an hour. If you exceed the DC by 20 or more you can teach them in just a minute.
Survival got some crafting stuff rolled into it, mostly environment stuff. It's not worth the added complexity in games that handwave it, but I think it'll be worth it in games where exploration and nature are stronger themes. The same ones that would benefit from a character with ranks in survival, so it seems fine.

I also rolled use rope in. I doubt anyone cares or needs that justified.

Survival
Untrained uses
Bind Adversary – The ability to tie knots is extremely helpful when attempting to survive outside the bounds of civilization. You can apply that knowledge to binding adversaries. It takes one minute (10 full round actions) to bind someone. There is no check involved in binding someone; your ranks are only used to determine the DC of the escape artistry check to escape your bindings.
Live Off the Land – When you’re between towns and have lost all of your food to bandits, you have to find more if you want to eat. You must decide to live off the land before you make this check, because it has significant impact on your daily travel distance. With a DC 15 survival check you can move up to your normal overland speed while also finding sufficient food and water for yourself. For each 4 points that you exceed this check you can feed one additional person. If you fail this check or don’t feed enough people, you can slow down in an attempt to search more thoroughly. With a DC 10 survival check you can move up to half your normal overland speed while also finding sufficient food and water for yourself, and another person for each 2 points that you exceed this check. If you fail that check or still don’t feed enough people, you can slow down even more and look even harder for food and water. With a DC 5 survival check you can move up to one quarter your normal overland speed while also finding sufficient food and water for yourself, plus one additional person per point you exceed the DC by. If you fail that check, you move at quarter speed for the day and go hungry if you lack other supplies, but you only go thirsty if you’re in a water scarce environment like a desert.

Rank 1 uses:
Rope Tricks – You can use a rope. It’s really not impressive, but it is often very useful. With a DC 10 check you can tie a firm knot. With a DC 15 check you can tie a special knot, like a slip knot. With a DC 20 check you can tie a firm knot that unties itself when you, or someone else who makes a check higher than yours, pulls on it. You can tie a rope around yourself or someone else with one hand with only a DC 15 check.

You’re also proficient with grappling hooks and making them stay up on roof ledges or rock outcroppings. The DC for this check is 10 +2 for every 10 feet of distance. When you make this check you commit yourself to climbing the rope. If you succeed on the check, the hook is properly secured and will hold while you and anyone else (up to the weight limit of the rope or hook) follow. If you fail the check by 5 or less you must try again, for the hook slipped when you first began to climb. If you fail by more than 5 the rope only holds for 1d4 rounds of weight bearing, and those rounds are assumed to have passed. If everyone climbed during the period that it was stable then nothing bad happens, but if anyone would still be on it during the round when it fails they fall and take damage as appropriate.

Survive Wilds – It’s a big world out there, and lots of it will kill you if you don’t know what you’re doing. You can guide yourself through that big world with landmarks and generally avoid getting lost with a DC 15 check; trackless or guideless terrain, limited visibility, or magical influences may increase this DC significantly. Each successful check keeps you from getting lost for one hour of travel at walking speed. If you succeed by more than 5 you are safe from becoming lost for four hours of travel at walking speed. If you fail the check by 5 or less you temporarily lose your way and lose half an hour regaining your bearings, after which you can proceed for an hour without further checks. If you fail by more than 5 you are utterly lost and unable to make any further checks until you determine where you are or reach a known location. Further travel is done by guess work.

You can also avoid quicksand, unstable rocks, suddenly deep bogs, and any other natural hazard with a DC 15 check. You can avoid magical hazards like lightning sand or even plant creatures; the DC for these objects is 15 + CR. If you are moving at a walking speed or below you are assumed to be taking 10 on this ability and will likely just avoid most natural things. You must be able to see a creature or hazard to avoid it in this way, so you may fail to avoid creatures that are well camouflaged. You lose this ability if you move faster than a walk, and have to stop or slow down for a full round before you can check terrain for hazards again.

Track Game – You know how to spot the signs that an animal has passed by. Conveniently enough, people and monsters leave lots of the same signs. You can follow any trail with a DC of 15 or less. Following any trail more complicated requires the Tracking special ability or the Track feat.

Weatherman – You know what that soreness in your bones means. With a successful DC 15 check, you can predict the weather of the coming day. If you succeed by 5 or more, you can also predict the weather for the following day. If you fail by 5 or less you can predict the weather for the next 6 hours. If you fail by more than 5, you’re only guessing about the weather at any point in the future, including a minute from when you make the check. Doesn’t mean you’re going to be wrong though.

Rank 4 uses:
Hunter’s Traps – You can trap creatures, for eating or whatever. With some work you can make a snare trap, a pit trap, an enclosure trap, or some other hunting trap that fits the environment. In a standard sized environment, you can spend an hour to make a trap for a medium creature. Smaller traps take half as long for each size category below, and larger traps take twice as long for each category above medium. A medium trap fills a 5’ x 5’ square, and is deep enough to hold a creature of that size. If you are in a different sized environment, use that size as the hour long base and adjust all times to create the trap from that size instead. After you finish making the trap, make a survival check. The result of your check is how long the trap will last, in days; the trap is useless and must be remade if not triggered in that period. Note that some extreme weather conditions can trigger a trap, like a strong storm, reducing that duration significantly.

The created trap has a search DC of 15 plus your ranks in survival. If the trap would allow a save, it has a DC of 10 + half your ranks in survival. If the trap would make an attack roll against a target, it uses your ranks in survival as the attack bonus.

Rough It – You’re well suited to surviving outside the bounds of civilization. You can make temporary shelters to protect yourself and others from ambient conditions, as well as clothes to protect yourself on the move. Shelters are easy to make, requiring only time and natural resources. With 20 minutes of work, you can make a shelter that will protect one medium sized person or object from local conditions, and you can add additional medium creatures to the same shelter by spending an additional ten minutes per. Creatures larger than medium require twice as long as the next size down, and smaller creatures require half as much time as the next size up. The initial time spent building the shelter is determined by the largest creature it will protect. Note that this time requirement is relative and assumes a normal sized environment; if an environment is sized properly for a huge creature then it takes them 20 minutes to create a shelter instead of 80, and a medium creature can make a shelter for themselves in just 5 minutes. You can also cut this time in half if you possess enough canvas to cover the combat spacing of everyone housed in the shelter.

While you are setting up shelter, neither you nor anyone else is protected from the environment by it and you suffer all effects normally. After you’ve spent the time required to set it up, you make a survival check to determine its integrity. If you succeed on a DC 20 check, modified by the extremes of the conditions, your structure is secure for 24 hours. During that time you suffer ¼ penalties, take ¼ damage, and make saves ¼ as often against conditions outside your shelter. You also gain a +3 bonus against any saves you have to make due to the environment. If you exceed the DC by more than 5 you are immune to conditions in the outside environment, suffering no damage or penalties and making no saves, and your structure lasts for 48 hours. If you fail the check by 5 or less, your structure only provides half protection from conditions and only lasts for 6 hours. If you fail by more than 5 your shelter provides no benefit whatsoever and must be rebuilt. When a structure reaches its time limit, it drops to the next level of protection. A perfect structure drops to a one-quarter structure after 48 hours, which drops to a one-half structure after 24 hours, which falls apart after 6 hours. To maintain a structure beyond its normal time limit, you must put in one-quarter the original setup time and make a new check when the structure reaches its current limit. You take the better of your check or the standard structure decline results.

Skin It – You’re not bad at setting up a camp, but you can also make portable protection from conditions using the local flora and fauna. It takes twice as many creatures of the same size to protect a person or object; the creatures are skinned or pulled for this process and so consumed in it. Once you have suitable materials, it only takes one hour to turn them into protective clothing. The DC for this set is 20, and you make one check per suit. If you succeed, you gain one-quarter protection from the environment while you wear the gear. If you succeed by more than 5 you gain complete protection from the local environment while you wear the gear. If you fail by 5 or less you only gain one-half protection with the gear. If you fail by more than 5 you ruin the materials and gain no protection from them at all.

The gear produced with this ability degrades so slowly as to not bother tracking, and most is replaced with better quality coverings long before it would expire. The gear produced is functionally another set of clothes, and carries a -3 armor check penalty. The gear is also only useful in the conditions it was made to protect against, in others it is useless or even dangerous to your health such as wearing thick arctic furs in the desert. This gear also provides no bonuses against any attack or energy types, it only provides protection against ambient conditions.

Rank 6 uses:
True North – You have a compass installed in your head. You always know where true north lies.

Rank 8 uses:
Mask Passing – You can mask the passing of an entire group of people, even if they continue moving at full speed. Generally you need to spend at least 5 minutes hiding a trail to provide a sufficient break to slow down a pursuer. After that time, you make a check to determine your results against a DC of 10 + 2 per person you are masking, including yourself. If you succeed on the check you increase the DC to track you by 5, if you succeed on the check by more than 5 you increase the DC to track you by 10. If you fail by 5 or less you do not change the DC to track you or your party. Any of those three cases prompt a new tracking check when the tracker runs across your trail masking however, and that alone may buy you some time. Failing the check by more than 5 fails to even interrupt your tracker’s stride, there is no effect on the DC to track you and the tracker does not need to make a new check when they cross your masking.

Rank 12 uses:
Planar Adaption – You can survive anywhere. You can use your Rough It and Skin It abilities to assist your survival on other planes. The mechanism of these checks remains the same, but the DC may increase drastically. For conditions similar to those on the prime there is no DC change, but a continuous acid fog or airless environment may increase the DC by 5-15 points.

Rank 14 uses:
The Long Road Home – You have fixed the compass of the multiverse firmly in your mind. With one minute to concentrate and scan the horizon, and a DC 30 check, you can determine direction and distance to any location in the prime material plane you have ever visited before. If you have only ever teleported to and from the location, the DC is 35 instead.

If you ever leave the prime material plane, you can determine the direction and distance to the nearest portal back to your world. You need 5 minutes of concentration and a DC 35 check to learn this information; activating the portal is another matter entirely and you learn no information about the portal aside from its general location. Note that this may not be the shortest route back to your home, as a trip through several planes might be the shorter route but would not be provided by this skill.
And lastly for now, the healing skill.

There's some diagnostic stuff in here now, and some of it is written for conditions that don't exist in 3.5 anymore. It's there to accommodate some 3.0 conditions and non-combat poisons (largely potential plot crap).

For the fast, spell-competing heal I specifically chose not to give it a die based healing effect, just to go with a fractional healing amount instead. It auto scales, as does the DC, and takes up less text. Between that and the regular nightly healing rules (sped up with skill), you can heal someone from none to full pretty easily already. If you want the skill to be able to bring people up multiple times, just drop the repeat use DC increase for the instant healing effect, or remove it entirely.

Healing
Special: The healing skill is intended to be used on creatures with a familiar anatomy. Some tasks, like binding wounds and treating poison, are fairly universal and can be applied to any living being while others, like accelerate healing, require some special knowledge to use effectively on non-humanoid creatures. If it seems unlikely that a healer would know how to work on a particular target, they suffer a -5 penalty to their check.

Untrained uses:
Staunch Bleeding – Nothing is worse than watching a friend bleed to death on you. With a DC 15 healing check and a standard action you can reduce recurring hit point loss, like the 1 point/round suffered while at negative hit points or bleeding damage, by 1 point. For every 3 points you exceed the DC you reduce the bleeding damage by 1 more point. If the patient is only losing hit points because they are below 0, they stop dying and become stable. This does not otherwise eliminate the condition that caused the bleeding, and if the bands are removed before the condition expires naturally the bleeding resumes; if the condition expires upon healing
Treat Wound – Caltrops and similar spells attack your feet, and your ability to move. As a full round action, you can make a heal check to dress the injuries and remove the movement penalty. The DC for this check is 15; for each point you fail the check by you need one additional full round to bind dress the wound.

Note: this ability supersedes the text of the spells; if an orison can eliminate the penalty as a standard action, the DC really is only 15 and it really doesn’t take a minute. If you don’t like that, change the healing required to eliminate the penalty in the spells.

Rank 1 uses:
Care for Patients – You know the rudiments of healing, and can provide more care than simple wound bindings. With a DC 15 healing check, you may care for up to six patients; you may care for an additional patient for every 2 points that you exceed the DC. If you do not meet the DC, you are able to care for one fewer patient for each point your roll missed the DC by. You may not care for yourself in this way, nor may you be someone else’s patient while caring for others.

While under your care, patients recover hit points and ability damage twice as quickly as normal. With a full day of rest, for example, a character would recover four hit points per character level and four points of ability damage. Additionally, you can make a healing check for each patient suffering a disease under your care; they can use your check in place of their save if it is higher. You may treat patients while travelling without penalty, though most forms of movement are active enough that you will only gain the healing benefit from the evening’s rest.

Mitigate Poison – You can help victims survive beyond the initial stab of a nasty poison. As a full round action, you can treat a poisonous wound. The next time that the victim makes a save against the effects of the poison, you also make a healing check. They may use your healing check in place of their save if it is higher. You may mitigate your own poisoned wounds as well, allowing you both a healing check and a saving throw at next check, but it requires two-full round actions.

Rank 4 uses:
Triage Assessment – It’s useful to know who you can save with your healing knowledge, and who you’d be wasting your time on. As a move action, you can make a healing check to determine someone’s condition. The DC for this check is 15, meeting that DC will let you know whether your target is below one-quarter of their maximum hit points, if they are dying you learn their exact negative hp amount, as well as whether or not they are suffering from any bleeding effects, diseases, or poisons. Diseases and poisons in their incubation periods are not detected with this ability. For every 2 points you exceed the DC by you can also learn one of the following things: the lowest unknown DC of a disease they are suffering from (in the event of a tie determine randomly), the effect of a failed save against a disease of known DC, the lowest unknown DC of a poison they are suffering from, the time remaining until next poison save, the effect of a failed save against a poison of known DC, or the duration of a bleeding effect.

Rank 6 uses:
Immediate Healing – You can work wonders with bandages, leaches, and almost no time. As a full round action you can attempt to heal someone of damage. If you succeed on a healing check, DC 15 + their level or your level (whichever is less), you heal one-fourth of their maximum hit points worth of damage or one-fourth of your maximum hit points worth of damage (whichever is less). If you fail by 5 or less, you heal one-eighth of their maximum hit points. If you fail by more than 5 you deal your level worth of subdual damage to your patient. Though you’ve got talent, there is a limit to what you can accomplish with a patient without actual time and rest. Each additional check on a patient again before they have taken a full night’s rest suffers a cumulative -10 penalty.

Rank 8 uses:
Detailed Assessment – You can spend a bit of time with people, and learns thing about them they didn’t know about themselves. After you have performed a Triage Assessment on someone, you can spend 1 more minute with them and make a DC 20 heal check. On a success you learn if there are any poisons or diseases in their incubation period, and the identity and DC of whichever has the lowest DC. For every 2 points you exceed the check by you also learn the identity and DC of another disease or poison, in order of ascending DC.

Rank 10 uses:
Accelerate Healing – You’re either a fantastic doctor, or patients just can’t wait to be free of you. Patients under your care, as the above ability, heal twice the standard amount after a night of rest. Patients who take a full day of bed rest under your care heal three times the base amounts. If any patient is suffering from a disease, you can make two healing checks when they make a save; the patient uses the best roll from among them.

Rank 12 uses:
Recover Limbs – You can keep pieces of people going long enough to put them back on. If someone loses a finger or a foot or an arm or whatever, you can keep it intact and viable. You make this healing check when you attempt to reattach the limb, and each attempt requires 15 minutes. The DC for this check is 20, +1 for every 2 minutes before the limb was picked up by someone with 10 or more ranks in healing and +1 for every 15 minutes it’s been detached from the owner. You suffer a -10 penalty to this check for every previous immediate healing attempt since the owner’s last full night’s rest. You may also rush the attempt, so that it only takes 5 minutes, but you suffer a -10 penalty to the check. If you succeed on this check, you reattach the limb properly and the owner is treated as if they had benefited from an immediate healing. If you succeed by more than 5 the owner either benefits from an immediate healing on top of the reattachment or you can attach a second severed body part with a DC less than or equal to the one you succeeded at. If you fail the check by 5 or less you do not reattach the part, but you may try again without penalty beyond the additional detached time. If you fail by more than 5 you ruin the piece and can not attempt to reattach it again.
[Edit] Front paged.
Last edited by TarkisFlux on Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TarkisFlux
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Post by TarkisFlux »

I've also fleshed out the acrobatics skill in the first post; there's more there than there used to be.

Also, max post length is over 100k characters. In case anyone was wondering.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

Forgery is pretty boring, and while I added in some functionality to create knockoffs it's just not that useful at high levels. I'll probably roll it into appraise in my games. I also updated appraise to be able to defeat it (yes, it's a skill that plays against itself in that respect), but you could probably use spot or search as well.

Forgery
Rank 4 Uses:
Forgery – Attention to detail can go both ways, allowing you to find or create forgeries and knockoffs. Anything that you can create, you can create in ways that make it look like something official or more expensive. You can create fake documents for example, make a normal sword appear to be a masterwork one, or remove the signs from a barrel of fish that would indicate its low quality. There is no set time for use of this ability as it strongly depends on what you’re working on. The DC to detect your forgery is the base DC to appraise the item, + your ranks in appraise, less some special modifiers that depend on the type of object you are working with. If you’re attempting to sell a rare or exotic item for more than it is worth, and the buyer has never seen it before, you should be using bluff instead of appraise to sell it to them. Con games aren’t covered by this ability.

If you are working with art objects or sundries, you suffer a -1 penalty for each additional 10% of apparent value. For items with bullshit inflated market values, like weapons or artwork from a specific artist, you suffer a -2 penalty for each category improvement you wish to show, such as from damaged to standard to masterwork. It is much easier to gain an increase in sales price by adding a brand to it than to simply make it look nicer.

For documents, you suffer a -5 penalty if you’ve only ever glanced at an original, and a -5 penalty for each security measure included in the document (such as special paper or ink you are imitating, watermarks, or arcane marks). You suffer no penalty to forge a document you are familiar with, but you gain a +2 bonus if you have a sample on hand to copy from. You must have at least glanced at an original to make a forgery of something (otherwise you’re just creating something and attempting to bluff with it), and you must be familiar with the written language if you don’t have a sample on hand to copy.

Seeing past the forgery to an item’s true worth is covered by earlier appraise abilities, as explained above. Seeing past forged documents can be done with either an appraise check or a perception check against the above DC.
And with that I think I'm done with the skill boosting. I'd very much appreciate some solid feedback and deconstruction on what I've got here.

Other things... I'm skipping spellcraft because I don't like how it works in general and it doesn't need a lot of help presently. I'm not touching the knowledge skills any more than I already did, which was mostly to rant at them. I'm going to ignore craft, profession, and perform because I think the whole subsystem they're built on is worse than the knowledge skills regarding skill point investment.

That still leaves concentration from the original set... I'm going to do it, but I want to do stuff with it from the first two pages of the thread and make a concentration / endurance split. There's also the divining / dowsing skill talked about in the earlier knowledge posts. These are more new things than revised old things though, so they may go elsewhere.

Plus, if I treat them as pieces of a separate project I can have a few minutes of being happy that I 'completed' what I originally set out to do.

[Edit]Dropped it in appraise on the first post. If anyone wants to take the time to go over the mass of stuff there with a comb, I'd really appreciate it.
Last edited by TarkisFlux on Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

I've been thinking about some other rules tweaks that this makes room for, and figure I'll toss them out.

The lack of ability to take 10 when you are under pressure makes lots of these skills much less useful, as many of them are designed to be used in combat or other stressful situations. While taking 10 for anything would make things boring and eliminate more risk than I want to, I don't see an issue letting people take 10 with abilities that have become old hat. So, you can take 10, under stress, with any ability that you exceed the prerequisite rank amount by 5 or more. Level 2 guys with 5 ranks can take 10 in untrained stuff, and level 10 guys can take 10 in stuff they picked up around level 5, most of which we won't care about at that point anyway. Since a lot of these are written in a measured success way, you lose out on a bit of oomph if you play it safe and take 10, but you also don't have to risk failure or under performing. There are some DC problems with this in a game that uses the Book of Gears skill bonus progression, but that's an easy enough thing to adjust.

I'm also unhappy with the way that all of these are contained in the skills, but only available to even attempt after you hit a certain rank. Letting people attempt an ability when they are 1 rank shy with a -5 (-8 for BoG) penalty or when they are 2 ranks shy with a -15 (-24 for BoG) seems a fair compromise. It's probably a long shot, and it's certainly not reliable, but the option is there.

I also want to toss in a "Take 15" option that just takes 4 times as long, but that's really a personal preference to fill the crappy gap between the not good enough 10 and the takes forever 20.
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Post by MGuy »

Resurrecting the thread just to ask is this the completed work or have their been changes to it sense that have not been posted?
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Post by TarkisFlux »

It's on it's second pass right now, and there have already been substantial changes to teh acrobatics skill (which was not written in the measured success vein of the rest of it) and diplomacy (new ability for campaigning and converting crowds, more people but only one step). There will be further editing changes (want to redo the entire ride subsystem) and ability additions (want to add heckling/slander to bluff to counter the friendship abilities of diplomacy), but they're slow in coming because of life distractions. If you've got any suggestions, complaints, or other stuff though feel free to toss it in.
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Post by MGuy »

Great to hear. This is the kind of thing I had touched on in the PF lowdown thread at one point, that skills should do more. I like what I see here though I may end up tweaking the numbers a bit.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

This setup probably works best with Iameki's skill mod revisions, standard x4 skill points at 1st level, class skills, and 1 point per rank cross class skills. Unfortunately, the DCs aren't in a very standardized place atm, and that's one of the things that needs to be fixed on the second pass.

If you're not running a game with those expectations you really need to change the DCs or the whole thing goes to hell. I think a book of gears style half or third level bonus from skill items is a terrible idea with this setup, since you either boost the DC and make the item semi-mandatory to do stuff (and thus need an item per skill) or you don't (and people who take the skill items succeed way more often than intended when they get the abilities). Plus, that bonus or the scaling class skill bonus you mention in the other thread generally lead to faster competence with new abilities than this assumes. That's fine if that's what you want, it's just not what I wanted.
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Post by MGuy »

Where can I find Iameki's work?
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Post by TarkisFlux »

It's in the tome pdf, the 'Skills' bookmark under 'Community Material'. Page 299 in ver 06b27. It's probably around here somewhere too, but I haven't seen it.
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Post by IGTN »

If you want to keep skill items, keep skills level-appropriate, and keep people rolling skills, there's something you can do about it. A few things, actually.

One is to make skill items have two modes. In the first mode, they grant a bonus that scales by level. In the second, they grant a fixed bonus (probably +3 to +5), up to a maximum of their level-based scaling. The first mode does not stack with ranks. The second mode does.

You could go even further, and make the first mode's bonus, or some fraction of it, actual ranks for purposes of using special abilities on the skill.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

That...

That's fantastic IGTN. Very lateral way to make a skill item there, increasing options without increasing numbers to ridiculous levels. Consider it stolen and added on next pass. Thanks!

Something like this perhaps:
Cloak of the Quickly Forgotten - Grants it's wearer level / 2 ranks in the stealth skill. These stack with existing ranks, but can not cause your ranks in the skill to exceed your level + 3. If worn by a character who already has more than their level in ranks in this skill, this cloak instead grants a +3 bonus to the skill. This bonus counts as ranks up to their level +3 with any remaining bonus treated as a competence bonus.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

MGuy wrote:Where can I find Iameki's work?
search for Skill Feats in the search bar. It works really well here.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

Working on my second pass now, and I'm trying to standardize crap. Standard skill writeups have both skill DC modifiers and roll modifiers, but never both. They're functionally the same thing, it's just retarded to have a spot check penalty and a higher listen DC for the same condition.

So which is easier to work with? Fixed DCs and conditional roll adjustments, or fixed rolls and conditional DCs?
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Post by MGuy »

I really don't know they both do the same thing really. If pressed I'd say roll adjustments because I find subtraction marginally easier than addition. In either case I dug up some interesting skill feats for concentration and various knowledges here.
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Post by IGTN »

I think that DC modifiers are best unless you're doing opposed rolls, actually. That way you just need to keep your skill bonus straight, and see if you hit the mark. No more "forgetting" your -2 penalty from this or that.

That said, DC modifiers don't work for opposed rolls or rolls to set DCs, and skill modifiers do. So if you want one standard system that works no matter what you're doing, skill modifiers. If you want a convenient system for most checks, DC modifiers.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

I'm actually leaning towards DC modifiers because they make the expected skill level a bit more obvious and intuitive (to me anyway). I know there's not a difference between a DC 40 check and a DC 10 check with a -30 penalty, but the former feels more impressive and the latter more lucky when it's accomplished. I guess it's just easier to wrap my head around in terms of what it should mean when someone can do that sort of thing.

I'm not sure if opposed checks are worth keeping in general, but aside from that I'm having a hard time remembering a time in skills where you'd roll an opposed check where both sides didn't suffer the same conditions, and could thus completely ignore the penalties as they'd just fall out of the comparison anyway.
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Post by IGTN »

Trying stealth in bad lighting is good for one side, specifically. Having an authentic document on hand for forgery, likewise.

Slipping rope bonds is another case where you might use modifiers specifically to one side (bad rope, for instance).
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Post by TarkisFlux »

Heh, fair enough. I actually think of those less as opposed checks (like opposed diplomacy checks to see who wins) and more like one side setting the base DC for the other. But you're right, for those instances where you care more about your result than just hitting some DC, like when setting a DC for someone else or making a jump check, DC mods work poorly... poorly enough to not worry about trying to use them universally. Time to see if I can make check mods work universally.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

Since everyone else wants to toss out "Fuck your spell!" skill abilities and I've been sitting on them for months now while I finish rewriting this, I figured I'd post them. Or at least the basics of them, since they're not really in a final format.

It's worth noting that you need to differentiate some spell effects to make this work. Instantaneous damage effects are pretty much out of bounds for these avoidance/shrug off effects, but every SoS or SoD in the book is fair. I have these setup to allow for the spell to have an immediate effect while still giving a character up to several rounds (at reduced capacity) to fight it off. Stunned is probably the best condition to apply to a character who is partially fighting off the effects of a spell, so as to avoid the SoD -> CDG issue. Anyway, specifics:

Concentration - This skill gets most of the generic stuff in the SRD, plus most of auto-hypnosis, but the big thing here is that it is a secondary will save replacement. The DC needs to be something like save DC + spell level (or 10 + HD + mod for spell likes with no level). The check is made as a free action on your turn, and a successful check will give you a standard action to do what you want with and a cumulative +1, a good check (by 5 or better) will give you a full round and a cumulative +2, and a great check (by 10 or better) will break the spell effect entirely. on the failure side, a poor check (fail by less than 5) will give you a swift action and a cumulative -1, and a bad (fail by more than 5) check will leave you hosed for the round and a with cumulative -2. you can make this check every round until the spell ends, you get a total -5 penalty, or you give up; people need something to do when they've been held or charmed and don't want to go along with it. plus it's an iconic thing to fight a mind spell, and this is that. If people get out of it, they suffer all the effects as if they had actually saved against the spell.

Endurance - This will get the run forever stuff from Athletics so that I can give athletics to rogues without also making them super cross country runners, and can also be used to fight off poison and disease after the initial failed save (secondary DCs may need to be adjusted here slightly, and it works better with >2 check poisons and diseases, but if you want to skip the work that's fine). It also gets the fort save fix like concentration gets for will, using the same check results. and yeah, that means that you can fight a disintegration for several rounds and even shrug it off in the end. which is also iconic and awesome imho. So, when SoD'd your heart stops, you have choking gasps, begin to turn to stone and all that along with the insta-gibbed stunned or similar status for the round, but not have the effects done and final until they're had a chance to fight them off.

Downside is that this is a new skill (keyed off Con) and needs to be given to the appropriate classes. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

Escape Artist gets the same secondary spell escape stuff as the above, but only for reflex saves. Entangle doesn't count, unless you want it to, because it already has it's own reduced effectiveness and escape rules, but other reflex saves that bind you or whatever are fair game.
Last edited by TarkisFlux on Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by TarkisFlux »

So, pass two is still underway, but I don't think I'll be putting the updates in bbcode for posting here. Instead I'm just going to wiki the whole thing for greater legibility and access and whatnot. Here's a direct link for anyone interested:

http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_ ... rcebook%29
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Post by Bihlbo »

I think the Book of Prowess is one of the coolest skill revisions I've seen. I like it, I think it's beautiful. Like a white elephant. See, I'm thinking about using this at my table, but my players are coming from Pathfinder, where the skills are pretty simple. This book make skills really complicated, its like a whole game all by itself. I mean, your options in exalted aren't as complicated as your options using the book of prowess. I don't know how to keep track of everything during a game session especially since everything is on the wiki. has anyone else used this before? I'd really like to hear about someone else's experience, because I think if I used it I would have a mutiny. But I could be wrong, maybe you can play a fighter with 10 maxed skills and treat the skill abilities like spells,so by level 12 you only have 45 different super powers to have memorized.
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