Did Jesus invent Hell?

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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Catharz »

SirWayne at [unixtime wrote:1166772381[/unixtime]]
And, similarly, evils caused by man are also entirely logical once you accept the existence of free will. Once God allowed us the choice of who to serve, he accepted the possibility that some would reject him in favor of Satan (or themselves-- the sin of pride is the original sin, after all). There's no getting around it-- if we can choose to be saints, we can choose to be sinners, and the only alternative is God smiting people with fire when they choose "wrong," in which case, again, what was the point of having the choice in the first place?


"Cake or Death" is not free will, and in fact has nothing to do with free will.

Christianity says I can do anything I like, and then I'll end up in one of two places. That doesn't make me any more or less 'free of will' than if I just ended up in only one of those places no matter what I did, or for that matter ended up nowhere.




And, on an unrelated note, Michel Behe is a hack. I've seen him speak, and it basically goes like this:
1) Bus in a bunch of church groups to fill 2/3 of the auditorium.

2) Make a bunch of snide comments about those poor benighted scientists who persist in trying to find falsifiable explanations for everything (e.g. 'If it looks like a duck,' etc). His strategy isn't to give evidence for "Intelligent Design" so much as it is to personally attack anyone who is a well known supporter of evolution (this is why people rarely debate him).

3) Ignore actual questions in the question and answer session. Example: Someone brings up a question about one of Behe's 'mousetrap' examples. You see, he likes to talk about bacterial flagella. Specifically how God must have designed bacteria, because it is self evident that bacterial flagella could not have evolved. So someone brings up the point that research they were involved in (this lecture was at the University of Minnesota) had demonstrated that the complex molecular motor which powers the flagella had probably evolved from a system designed to pump exess water out of the bacteria. And Behe just laughs it off, and says that this grad student must just be wrong.

4) ?????

5) Profit.
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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Username17 »

ID isn't a theory even. It's a gross misunderstanding of statistics. See if you roll a d20, your chance of getting a number is 100%, but your chances of getting whatever number you happen to get is only 5%. We play games, we understand this.

So if you roll a d20 say one hundred million times - you'll get a sequence of numbers. Your chances of getting a sequence of numbers is 100%. But your chances of getting your specific sequence of numbers that you actually end up with is as close to zero as makes no odds.

And that's the core problem with Intelligent Design. It's just a bunch of people looking at whatever actually evolved and then saying that the chances of that happening are so astronomically small that there's no way it could have happened. But they are looking at the specific sequence generated after the fact by a system that generates sequences. The chances of it making some sequence is 100%. The chances of it making the specific sequence we have instead of some other one is indeed very small - but since we have no way to turn back time and do it differently we'll never know for sure.

It's the same tired fatalist argument that deists are always making. Holy crap! What if history couldn't have been different because my god said so!? To which the answer is "History couldn't have been different because time really only goes one direction and all the choices and random events are fixed. So ascribing impetus to the past is pointless, the chances of the you in the present having a past of some sort is always 100%."

Intelligent Design is worthless drivel. It's not even that it's simply unfalsefiable religious assertions like Hindu scriptures - it's a series of statistical claims which are deliberately misleading and outright false.

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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Crissa »

Irreducible complexity is what Intelligent Design boils down to. I suppose you could say God was surprised when things happened when he played a game of Life and we're just in an iteration of it, but... That doesn't explain he whole 'paradise forever' thing at all

Tim Radford of The Guardian (EducationGuardian.co.uk)
Well, not if it hinges on the evidence of irreducible complexity. Irreducible complexity is the brick wall at which all science stops. Until Copernicus, Galileo and Newton came along, the motions of the planets were irreducibly complex and God sustained them, and that was all you needed to know. Influenza was a consequence of planetary influences, so it was beyond earthly explanation. Malaria was spread by bad air (hence the name mal aria) so you had to protect yourself with a scented handkerchief. Human flight, of course, was something that would never happen. And matter - all matter - was fabricated from fire, air, earth and water, with possible help from a quintessence. Life was a vital spark. And so on. If researchers had, over the last 300 years, accepted the argument that difficult-to-understand phenomena were irreducibly complex, most of us would never have been born. Those that were born and then survived might have their faces pitted by smallpox, their lungs scarred by tuberculosis and their limbs withered by polio. They would of course have no telephones, no television, and no Ryanair flights, because the science behind all of these things must once have seemed irreducibly complex to somebody, indeed to everybody.


There's alot of smart people in the world. Many of them beieve in some sort of 'God', because they can. Many of those only believe because to not believe means...

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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by RandomCasualty »

SirWayne at [unixtime wrote:1166772381[/unixtime]]
Assuming that there was a superentity out there with effective omniscience [albeit some bizarre personality quirks], would you say that you were smarter than he is? Or even that there was a possibility that you could be?

The fact is, we as humans are extremely insignificant when compared to the vast universe that we still don't know much about. There could very well be a singular purpose to everything, and it might even be "42," but we will probably never know. And to say that we know better than a theoretical omniscience what's "best" or "most desirable" for the universe is the very height of hubris.

See, that's the problem with the intelligent design theory. You start by assuming "God exists" then you hand wave everything that you can't explain and say "It's beyond us, but there's a purpose, because god exists and he put it there for a reason."

You're trying to prove something and then explaining it by assuming the thing you're trying to prove is true.

It's a 'Begging the question' fallacy based on circular logic.


Now, I bring up the subject of God's possible personality quirks for a reason. One thing [among others] really stands out to me in the book of Genesis: it states that God created man out of the dust, not being born as a baby. Assuming that that's true, that means that Adam was created with the appearance but not reality of age. And if that is true, why not create the universe the same way-- with the appearance but not reality of age? And if that's true, it makes sense that there's only life on this one planet-- because that's all God wanted-- and that there would still be "creation" out there, to intrigue people and make them consider the heavens, and from that, God (Psalms 19:1).

Well, here's the deal. God wants to be worshipped apparently for whatever reason. He wants it to so much he's willing to send your soul to hell for eternity because you don't. Why would he create crafty illusions to mislead people? God forces people to guess and then gives you an eternity of torment if you guess wrong.

That isn't benevolent in my book.


As far as "evil" in nature goes-- animals killing each other and humans being born with disease and so on-- that has to be accepted as a fundamental and logical consequence of God's decision to create a natural cycle to govern our lives, instead of micromanaging everything Himself like a big game of Populous. There is no other alternative-- either God sits back and only intervenes when it is absolutely necessary (if the Hebrews didn't survive to reach Canaan, then obviously Jesus being born in Bethlehem to the tribe of Judah would be a problem)-- or we have no free will because God does everything. If there is an option C, I don't know what it could be.

There's plenty of other solutions actually. God's power is theoretically infinite. There's no reason he has to have people die of disease or in other painful ways. People can merely die peacefully and move on, or even not die at all until they're ready to go to heaven. There are a heck of a lot more benevolent things God can do.


So, if you accept rain and the water cycle, you accept droughts and deserts. If you accept sexual reproduction, you accept genetic disorders.

If you except the science of evolution and biology. If you buy into intelligent design, then that stuff doesn't have to be true, because God could make it anyway he wanted, but he chose to put flaws in the system just to cause pain and misery. So when you've got some child dying of a birth defect, God did that.


And if you accept having a multitude of species-- for whatever reason-- you accept them preying on each other, as the only alternative is overpopulation and disaster.

Nope, omnipotent being again. He can just as easily create an infinite world to live on. Thus no overpopulation because space could be infinite. The world is only finite because God made it finite.

If you're going by intelligent design, you must toss out science. Because by intelligent design, you no longer are bound by existing constraints on space/time because you have an omnipotent creator. So natural consequences as determined by current reality do not have to exist.

People dont' even have to need to eat food to grow. They don't have to starve, they only starve because God put that dependency in there.



And, similarly, evils caused by man are also entirely logical once you accept the existence of free will.

Well yes, that much I can accept. But there are plenty of non-man made flaws that disprove intelligent design (At least by a benevolent all-good infallible creator being).

I answered most of that previously, but I'd like to add that it's not exactly a "guessing game."

Oh, it is a guessing game. Until there's undeniable proof that God exists, it is entirely a guessing game. While you have reached one decision, plenty of very smart and educated people have reached other decisions. Everyone has their own guess about how the universe works, but nobody can actually prove it. If we could prove it, then there wouldn't be massive religious wars and controversy.

But the thing is that it's not clear, and the answer isn't obvious or even provable.


I mean, seriously, has any scientific field had more "problems" with self-supported hoaxes than evolution?

Science has had some hoaxes. But it also has something religion doesn't, and that's actual proof. Just because some people faked a few things doesn't make all the real stuff invalid.


This is a joke, right? Well, just to get us started, I can find Mt. Sinai on an atlas, and book a flight to Bethlehem, but I haven't had much luck seeing the gods on Olympus or going to Asgard....

Can you go to heaven or hell? Can you prove its existence?

Anyone ever find the garden of Eden? Last I checked they didn't.

How do we know that Zeus isn't just hiding mount Olympus from us or that Jesus wasn't just an incarnation of Loki who decided to play the ultimate prank on humanity by inventing a false religion?

Just like intelligent design handwaves lifeless planets and other seemingly useless parts of the cosmos with "we just don't understand it", you can easily do the same to justify other religions. You can bring up the same garbage argument that "Zeus is a god and smarter than you are, so anything he does is beyond human comprehension."

In the end it just boils down to "believe this cause I said so."

You know, we still have trouble explaining how the pyramids were constructed... maybe the pharoahs really were gods.

The only reason that worshipping God gets more credit than worshipping Zeus is because it's popular. There is just no hard evidence that makes Christianity any more believable than any other religion.
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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Crissa »

I don't see how we have trouble explaining the pyramids...

...Because we have the actual signatures and working marks of the artisans that made each stone block.

Do you even know how many Bethlehems are in the middle east? You know where Mt Ararat is, but that's not where the Ark supposedly landed, either. Do you know where Jesus's grave is? How many foreskins he had?

On the other hand, science once had no idea continents moved, but once that was found that out, and weren't able to find another explaination... Is the 'fact' of continental drift in textbooks or is progeneration?

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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Neeek »

SirWayne at [unixtime wrote:1166762739[/unixtime]]Frank (...darn it >_>):

I've heard that argument ("You can't believe in an omni-God and still have free will") at least a hundred times, literally, and I'm really starting to get tired of it, because it's not true.


I was going to let Frank handle this, but evidently, he didn't care to, so I'll do it.


You have to believe that there's an all-knowing, all powerful GOD, and you have to believe that you personally have free will at the same time.


OK. You didn't state it, but I've heard this argument enough times that I'm pretty sure what your point is-- If God has all knowledge, then he knows what you're going to do before you do it, and thus you never truly had the free will to do anything else (and if that's wrong, please correct me).

That is one argument, but not the one Frank was invoking. The one he was invoking was the idea that anything other than an omnipotent, omniscient being has free will when an omnipotent, omniscient being exists is simply ludicrous.

If anything is all-knowing and all-powerful, then it makes all the decisions that there are to be made by definition. Anything anyone else does is because he decided to let them.
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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Ramnza »

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1167021590[/unixtime]]

There's plenty of other solutions actually. God's power is theoretically infinite. There's no reason he has to have people die of disease or in other painful ways. People can merely die peacefully and move on, or even not die at all until they're ready to go to heaven. There are a heck of a lot more benevolent things God can do.


So we're not going to talk about being cast out of paradise? This isn't paradise; why should things be peaceful? We are living in a world of human creation. Misery and disease included.
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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by power_word_wedgie »

Merry Christmas everyone!

:D
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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I'll check, but I don't think Humans invented disease.

We might have designed some nasty varieties, but we were just improving on what already existed.
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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by PhoneLobster »

wrote:We are living in a world of human creation.


Oh yeah, thats right blame it all on the girls and their metaphorical snake lovin' appetites for learning.

Or alternately in Big Man On Campus omnipotent god's universe there simple cannot be such at thing as a world that is not of HIS creation.

But sure, lets ignore the obvious source of responsibility in that universal model and blame it on the women, then we can like justify enslaving them and treating them as inferiors and stuff like good Christians do.

'Cause those naughty women need a spankin' for creating all evil like that...
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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

PhoneLobster at [unixtime wrote:1167081080[/unixtime]]

'Cause those naughty women need a spankin' for creating all evil like that...


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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Sir Neil »

SirWayne wrote:If you jump out off a skyscraper, you will die. You will splatter on the ground and your existence as you know it will end, so for the love of Geese Howard, don't do it.

If you sin-- and trust me, you have-- you will die. You will be found not worthy to enter into God's sight, and will be sent to the only place left-- Hell-- forever. But if you accept this complementary Jesus jacket and bumper sticker, we'll let you in-- as long as you promise to behave [forever].


You can show a disbeliever the proof of the first statement. Drop a pencil, or even throw them to the ground.

The second statement ... not so much. Is drinking and dancing a sin? Girls in pants? Eating at Red Lobster?

Even if you define which are sins, you have no proof of Hell.
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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Amethyst_Butterfly »

Do you know where Jesus's grave is? How many foreskins he had?


wait, what? Im sorry, i must be misreading/misinterpreting? o.O I get the first half, but the second made me o.O
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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Username17 »

Amethyst_Butterfly at [unixtime wrote:1167094646[/unixtime]]
Do you know where Jesus's grave is? How many foreskins he had?


wait, what? Im sorry, i must be misreading/misinterpreting? o.O I get the first half, but the second made me o.O


Jesus was a Jew, meaning that presumably he had his foreskin excised in the gruesome and barbaric ritual of my desert forebears. However, Christianity today claims that the half-off special you get at the briss is no longer required to make a pact with the god of Israel.

It's a core tenet of Judaism and Christianity whether or not you have to mutilate the penises of young boys - and yet there's no direct record or evidence of Jesus specifically saying or doing anything about it one way or another.

In short, not whacking pieces off your cock may exclude you from the service of YHWH even if the New Testament is correct - and there's no compelling evidence one way or the other as to what Jesus said on the matter.

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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Amethyst_Butterfly »

Well, the main part that made me o.O was the "how many"... I wasn't aware that one could have multiple foreskins, so it kinda made me laugh and o.O

Interesting point though.
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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by PhoneLobster »

The reference to multiples is due to the whole thing Christians have with worshipping bits of dead dudes.

See the saints, remarkable men that they were left plenty of bits. Each having as many as several skulls, dozens of fingers, sometimes an entire spare body.

Jesus of course supposedly ascended so anyone claiming to have his body, or any part of it, is going to be, lets say unpopular with regular christians.

But he was a Jew, and therefore he conveniently had a bit lopped off before he took number 9 convenient-lack-of-evidence-explaining plot device express back to the fairyland from whence he was derived.

So there are NUMEROUS foreskins of Jesus being worshipped out there. So having seven or eight or whatever of the things he was truly abnormally endowed even among his fictional character peers.
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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by RandomCasualty »

PhoneLobster at [unixtime wrote:1167081080[/unixtime]]
But sure, lets ignore the obvious source of responsibility in that universal model and blame it on the women, then we can like justify enslaving them and treating them as inferiors and stuff like good Christians do.

'Cause those naughty women need a spankin' for creating all evil like that...


You know, if Christianity believed in having women as sex slaves... I've just got one thing to say... sign me up!

But seriously... the main thing I dislike about religions is that they give you nothing now except empty promises. All the benefits of religion come when you're dead, which conveniently makes all the benefits impossible to prove. They prey on the innate fear of death and what comes after death, and use that fear to manipulate and in some cases, exploit.
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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Maj »

Sir_Neil wrote:
SirWayne wrote:If you jump out off a skyscraper, you will die. You will splatter on the ground and your existence as you know it will end, so for the love of Geese Howard, don't do it.

If you sin-- and trust me, you have-- you will die. You will be found not worthy to enter into God's sight, and will be sent to the only place left-- Hell-- forever. But if you accept this complementary Jesus jacket and bumper sticker, we'll let you in-- as long as you promise to behave [forever].


You can show a disbeliever the proof of the first statement. Drop a pencil, or even throw them to the ground.

The second statement ... not so much. Is drinking and dancing a sin? Girls in pants? Eating at Red Lobster?

Even if you define which are sins, you have no proof of Hell.


More basic than that...

If I tell someone not to jump off a skyscraper, that's me trying to explain the negative impact of something - in this case, gravity - that I don't have control over.

If God says not to do something bad or you'll go to Hell... Well, He's the one that created Hell and the system for measuring how you get there.

A more apt example would be something more akin to: If you don't eat your vegetables, you'll get a spanking. Only Hell is way worse than a spanking.

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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by Zherog »

Are you saying you like spankings, Maj? ::uptosomething:
You can't fix stupid.

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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

Post by tzor »

Wow trollers performed thread necromancy on a question of Jesus and Hell, but hell, I’m really sorry I missed this, it all sounds fun. Of course if you want a real Roman Catholic version of the whole thing; I’ll give you a hint probably most Catholics don’t know this stuff because no one is really interested in it; I can always describe it in multi-handed detail. (And remember the fundamental rule is Catholic teaching is “And.” It’s not Coke or Pepsi; it is Coke and Pepsi … or something like that.)

OK let’s go to HELL. Revelation is far to complex to understand in a simple thread so we need to look at the Gospels. Bear in mind that around this time there was a notion that sinners went to … that burning trash heap on the outskirts of the city (Gehenna). Jesus throws out an interesting view of hell in the parable of Lazarus. Basically you have that generally peaceful place which theologians call the temporary limbo where the just waited outside the gates of paradise for the messiah to open the gates. Metaphorically it was generally termed the “bosom of Abraham” although that’s one big forefather’s breast for everyone to be under at the same time.

So you have Lazarus, Abraham in this nice but rather dull place and way over in the far corner you have the dead ex-rich man who is in severe torment. He begs Abraham to order Lazarus to give him some water to quench his pain. Abraham basically says that in the first place Lazarus deserves his blissful retirement and doesn’t do that work thing anymore and besides there is this big gulf between them and they can’t cross over even if they wanted to so you should have thought of that when you lived the life of Riley. Lazarus, suddenly showing this massively good streak that would annoy most if not all DMs and a plethora of preachers on the subject then begs Abraham to send Lazarus from the dead to warn his brothers that this place sucks for those like him. Abraham comments that they have Moses and the prophets that they can read. If they don’t heed their words would they probably won’t pay attention to someone raised from the dead!

(“Which is why you morons still suck,” the evangelist replied after putting down the scroll before the assembled scholars who didn’t quite get the whole Jesus thing. Yes clearly the parable is meant to stick it to those who hadn’t yet converted.)

So let’s take the creed. So you have this divided place of the dead, also called Sheol. Under the Gospel it is divided into the good and the bad, which is not exactly what the classic view of the place was at the time. (See the fancy footnote below.) Generally everyone tends to call it hades when they write in Greek because when in Rome or Greece use the terminology of the language. So when the writers of the Creed (hey what do you know they’re Greek too) wanted to express that Jesus died, no really, no fooling, he went to the place the dead go, they wrote the word which eventually gets translated into English as “Hell” even though technically it’s more like stopping by the bosom of Abraham and saying, “Hi Abraham, I got the keys to the gate here. I’ll open it up in a moment. Hey have you met my new friend, Mr. Good Thief? - By the way, you never mentioned you name when we were hanging about there.”

(HEY I GOT ME FOOTNOTES. Can’t help it, I dropped these notes on my feet.)

Gehenna from Wiki: “Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem (in modern-day Israel) where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped. In addition, this valley was frequently not controlled by the Jewish authority within the city walls; it is traditionally held that this valley was used as a place of religious child-sacrifice to Moloch by the Canaanites outside the city.”

Sheol from Wiki: “Sheol originated from the ancient Sumerian view that after one dies, no matter how benevolent or malevolent he or she was in life, in Sheol he or she is destined to eat dirt to survive. Sheol is sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek mythology. In fact, Jews used the word "hades" for "sheol" when they translated their scriptures into Greek. The New Testament (written in Greek) also uses "hades" to mean the abode of the dead (sheol).”

“The Book of Enoch (ca. 160 BCE) purportedly records Enoch's vision of the cosmos. The author describes sheol as divided into four sections: one where the faithful saints blissfully await judgment day (see bosom of Abraham), one where the moderately good await their reward, one where the wicked are punished and await their judgment at the resurrection (see Gehenna), and the last where the wicked who don't even warrant resurrection are tormented.”
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Re: Did Jesus invent Hell?

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