Plane Crash

Mundane & Pointless Stuff I Must Share: The Off Topic Forum

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Plane Crash

Post by Username17 »

So the co-pilot of the plane that crashed into the side of a mountain apparently hid an illness from his coworkers. The media is of course jumping up and down about depression because they can't actually think of anything that would make someone drive into a wall other than feeling bad and wanting to die.

But honestly, what we apparently know about the situation is that he turned the altitude dial all the way to one side and then didn't say or do anything for eight minutes while people talked to him and then yelled at him and pounded on the locked door next to him. That really sounds like the illness is "epilepsy."

-Username17
User avatar
RobbyPants
King
Posts: 5201
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:11 pm

Post by RobbyPants »

Are you saying he was "blacked out" that whole time, or what?

The most I'd heard about this is that he was heard audibly breathing and he didn't respond to the radio or the people outside the cockpit, but this is the first I've heard of a hidden illness.
User avatar
Prak
Serious Badass
Posts: 17340
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Prak »

They've mentioned that the pilot was apparently locked out of the cockpit, so it seems intentional, but thinking about it even a moment, it occurs to me that the cockpit door may not have a key so much as no release on the outside, and requires someone in the cockpit to open it, so if the pilot stepped out to piss or get head from a steward, and the copilot went into a epileptic seizure or passed out, that could be perceived as "locking out the pilot," I suppose.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
User avatar
GreatGreyShrike
Master
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:58 am

Post by GreatGreyShrike »

Prak wrote:They've mentioned that the pilot was apparently locked out of the cockpit, so it seems intentional, but thinking about it even a moment, it occurs to me that the cockpit door may not have a key so much as no release on the outside, and requires someone in the cockpit to open it, so if the pilot stepped out to piss or get head from a steward, and the copilot went into a epileptic seizure or passed out, that could be perceived as "locking out the pilot," I suppose.
The system for the door locks is standardly as follows:

Standard use:
- You ring a buzzer and discuss opening the door over intercom
- The pilot(s) verify your identity etc and lifts and pushes a toggle
- The door unlocks

Counterterrorist use
- You ring a buzzer or knock, initiating communication
- The pilot(s) decide they don't want to let you in and lift and pushes the toggle in the other direction
- The door stays locked come hell or high water

Anti-Accidental-unconscious-pilots use
- You ring a buzzer and get no response. You enter a code in a keypad that all pilots/stewards know.
- A buzzer sounds in the cabin for 30 seconds. IF nothing else happens, including the pilot locking the door, the door then unlocks after 5 minutes.

So it would have to be an event of epilepsy that *also* caused the pilot to also flip the door toggle to "deliberately locked" from it's normal "open the door in 5 minutes if the code is given" state. That seems a little unlikely.

EDIT: Door video describing this system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs
Last edited by GreatGreyShrike on Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hyzmarca
Prince
Posts: 3909
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:07 pm

Post by hyzmarca »

Prak wrote:They've mentioned that the pilot was apparently locked out of the cockpit, so it seems intentional, but thinking about it even a moment, it occurs to me that the cockpit door may not have a key so much as no release on the outside, and requires someone in the cockpit to open it, so if the pilot stepped out to piss or get head from a steward, and the copilot went into a epileptic seizure or passed out, that could be perceived as "locking out the pilot," I suppose.
USA today wrote: The Airbus A320 has a reinforced door with an electronic lock that can be unlocked by a toggle switch in the cockpit or by a keypad outside the door, according to a company video.

If both pilots become incapacitated, a crew member can override the lock by punching a code onto the pad. Inputting the code gives a 30-second buzzer warning to the pilots that somebody might enter and then unlocks the door.

But an alert pilot can prevent the door from unlocking with the toggle switch inside the cockpit. The Germanwings captain either didn't try the keypad or the co-pilot blocked him from entering, according to Carsten Spohr, CEO of Lufthansa parent airline.


Without further details there are two possibilities. Maybe the copilot locked them out, or maybe no one on the outside remembered the code, or thought of using it. I suspect it's the later. I've certainly forgotten enough PINs.


Anyway, this is why cockpit door locks aren't the best idea. Heart attacks are far more common than terrorists are.


From what I can find the cockpit lock is a simple toggle switch with three settings. There's unlock , which Unlocks the door; Normal which causes the door to automatically lock, but it can be unlocked with the keypad; and then there's Lock, which disables keypad making entry from the outside completely impossible.


It's possible that he accidentally set it to Lock instead of Normal after letting the pilot out and then has a seizure or a heart attack or a stroke or something, in which case the Pilot would have no possible way to get back in. It's also possible that the pilot simply didn't think of using the code, or didn't remember it.
Last edited by hyzmarca on Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Orion
Prince
Posts: 3756
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Orion »

A Rachel Maddow guest says planes with those doors are supposed to have two people in the cockpit at all times. When one pilot uses the bathroom, a flight attendant is supposed to sit in on them.

None of her guests seemed aware of the external codepad. In fact, Rachel kept asking questions fishing for some kind of back up but the pilot she had on (and I later an engineer or something) insisted that there was no back up. Their story is that the doors lock automatically and can only ever be opened by deliberate action from inside.
MDT
NPC
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:27 pm

Post by MDT »

Supposedly on the black box recordings the copilot can be heard "breathing normally" from when he locks the door to the impact.

The accusation that the crash was deliberate comes directly from whoever is giving the press conferences.
ishy
Duke
Posts: 2404
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:59 pm

Post by ishy »

RobbyPants wrote:Are you saying he was "blacked out" that whole time, or what?

The most I'd heard about this is that he was heard audibly breathing and he didn't respond to the radio or the people outside the cockpit, but this is the first I've heard of a hidden illness.
[url=http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/andreas-l-hinweise-auf-psychische-erkrankung-von-germanwings-pilot-a-1025835.html wrote:spiegel[/url]] Stundenlang durchsuchten Ermittler am Donnerstag die Wohnung von Andreas Lubitz in Düsseldorf. Dabei fanden sie nach Informationen des SPIEGEL Hinweise darauf, dass der 27-Jährige psychisch krank war
Also local news (using Bild as the source) tells me he had panic and anxiety attacks, in the past, possibly because of relationship issues. And after going back to work, he regularly had special medical check-ups. And that he's been seeing a psychiatrist for the past one-half year.
Though the Spiegel article linked above says the Bild was basing their claims on a 6-year old document.

- Edit: also this, if you prefer an English source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32087203
A German hospital confirmed he had been a patient recently but denied reports he had been treated for depression.
Last edited by ishy on Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
Fwib
Knight-Baron
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Fwib »

I take it that they don't store video on the black box, nor have plans to do so in future?
MDT
NPC
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:27 pm

Post by MDT »

No. Audio only.
User avatar
Longes
Prince
Posts: 2867
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Post by Longes »

Daily Mail claims that the second pilot recently bought two cars for his girlfriend, and then they had a break up.
User avatar
Stahlseele
King
Posts: 5974
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:51 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Post by Stahlseele »

@ishy
for future reference:
using BILD as a source is basically using the german written version of Fox News as a source . .

Spiegel is better.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
DSMatticus
King
Posts: 5271
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:32 am

Post by DSMatticus »

What the hell is going on with plane fatalities lately?

2013 had about 250 plane-related fatalities. 2014 had about 750. 2015 already has about 250, and we're only four months in. I get that it's inherently a very unstable statistic, because big planes crash rarely but kill fucktons of people when they do, but it's starting to look less like a blip and more like a sustained uptake. Note that the total number of fatal accidents is still going down, we're just trading small personal plane crashes for major commercial plane crashes, and that's a bad trade.
User avatar
Stahlseele
King
Posts: 5974
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:51 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Post by Stahlseele »

i tell you, it's a conspiracy to get people to use trains and ships more . .
Last edited by Stahlseele on Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
User avatar
Prak
Serious Badass
Posts: 17340
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Prak »

Stahlseele wrote:@ishy
for future reference:
using BILD as a source is basically using the german written version of Fox News as a source . .

Spiegel is better.
Ditto Daily Mail for britain, Longes.

Frank- NPR was talking about the base the copilot worked at/flew out of/whatever the term here is, and how everyone knew him, because Dusseldorf is a really small base for German Wings. Assuming that the reports of torn up sick notes at his apartment aren't pure BS, it's clear he was hiding some kind of condition.

Question to solve my own ignorance on the matter- is it possible to hide epilepsy?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
User avatar
erik
King
Posts: 5861
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by erik »

Prak wrote: Question to solve my own ignorance on the matter- is it possible to hide epilepsy?
Your question is actually kind of tricky since it is the wrong question. When you are having them you are not in control, so- No, you cannot actively hide it, but if nobody knows you have them then that's pretty well hidden.

If nobody ever sees or realizes they are seeing you have a seizure then they would have no way of knowing you are afflicted by them.

Not every seizure is a grand-mal with violent shakes. A seizure could just be blacking out while you breathe normally for several minutes for example.

The right question is, is it possible to have seizures that can cause a fatal incident mirroring the German flight and have nobody else in the airline know about it? And depending upon how frequent they are, the answer is yes. And to make it worse, not all seizures are chronic, as they can be caused by other things.
User avatar
Prak
Serious Badass
Posts: 17340
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Prak »

Gotcha. My only exposure to seizures is kids in elementary school suffering them, usually grand mal, so that's the only sort I really know about.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
User avatar
Whipstitch
Prince
Posts: 3660
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:23 pm

Post by Whipstitch »

You and virtually everyone else on the planet. Epilepsy is really not a subject for people who prefer their answers nice and tidy.
bears fall, everyone dies
User avatar
Occluded Sun
Duke
Posts: 1044
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 6:15 pm

Post by Occluded Sun »

There's speculation that certain kinds of migranes are actually seizures that don't disrupt consciousness. The only real way to detect them would be an electroencephalogram.

While people can do some bizarre and complex things while sleepwalking, in trance states, and while having seizures, it's a little hard to see why he would have changed the altitude setting then done nothing. You might as well attribute it to demonic possession.
"Most men are of no more use in their lives but as machines for turning food into excrement." - Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13871
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

I was speaking with a former-plane, wait sorry, a former-pilot (and aviation engineer), and he pointed out that the guy changed the altitude settings and activated the landing gear, which sounded more like a deliberate act.

But there are seizures and things that can cause people to flail about briefly, so it's not beyond the realms of plausibility that he accidentally caused those things during some form of spasm.
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
User avatar
tussock
Prince
Posts: 2937
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:28 am
Location: Online
Contact:

Post by tussock »

People with oxygen deprivation to the brain do all sorts of weird shit, including performing inappropriate but routine acts, or calmly pushing a lever the same way repeatedly (the brain can output a trained action, but can't recognise that it just did so).

But if you have a stroke, for instance, you have oxygen deprivation for a while and then you often pass out and breath calmly. Pilots are all trained to lower altitude in response to oxygen deprivation symptoms (so that they'll recover from the normal decompression event as air pressure increases), and he may have been functional enough to pull the landing gear because that's the normal next step, or even in response to the altitude alarm.


Or he may have just crashed the plane, but you can't really go assuming one kind of brain failure over another. It's complicated. Boat captains can get anxiety attacks and order everyone to be calm and wait a moment and just keep doing that for hours while their boat sinks. There's a reason there's two pilots in an aircraft, two keys to launch a nuke, and standard systems for removing the captain of a boat from duty by basically anyone in the room with them. The problem here is the other pilot didn't get back in the cockpit.
PC, SJW, anti-fascist, not being a dick, or working on it, he/him.
DSMatticus
King
Posts: 5271
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:32 am

Post by DSMatticus »

tussock wrote:The problem here is the other pilot didn't get back in the cockpit.
But neither did the terrorists. The system works!
User avatar
Occluded Sun
Duke
Posts: 1044
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 6:15 pm

Post by Occluded Sun »

It's worth noting that when the cockpit can be locked like that, at least two people are supposed to be in there at all times. If one pilot has to leave, a flight attendant is supposed to enter.

We don't know for certain whether this was an especially brutal suicide-mass-murder or not, but it probably couldn't have happened if the flight crew had followed procedure. That's a very definite screw-up.
"Most men are of no more use in their lives but as machines for turning food into excrement." - Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci
hyzmarca
Prince
Posts: 3909
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:07 pm

Post by hyzmarca »

Occluded Sun wrote:It's worth noting that when the cockpit can be locked like that, at least two people are supposed to be in there at all times. If one pilot has to leave, a flight attendant is supposed to enter.

We don't know for certain whether this was an especially brutal suicide-mass-murder or not, but it probably couldn't have happened if the flight crew had followed procedure. That's a very definite screw-up.
Apparently, the procedure is more lax in Europe.
Post Reply