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The Kaelik Wizard
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Ice9
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A lot of Tome classes are stronger than the Wizard at 1st level. Most of the ones people make, even. Yeah, yeah, Color Spray. It's great. But sometimes people make the save or aren't arranged in the right formation to use it effectively. Meanwhile, most Tome classes have an effective means to kill fools all day long, plus often utility. So I think the 1st level comparison is not that meaningful.

I'd say that more importantly, this is better than a not-highly-optimized Wizard at most levels. Not sure if that's a bad thing. For all the talk about how Tome stuff is absolutely no stronger than a caster, that's only true when you talk about either Schrodinger's Wizard, as seen in forum discussions, or a high-op one on the border of breaking the game. In an "average" game, they definitely represent a power-up, which this class would fit with.

But also, I don't think "one copy of each spell" is much of a balancing factor. If you want it like that for simplicity reasons, fine. But when you factor in books outside the PHB, there are at least six good spells of every level. And as for whether going outside the PHB is relevant:

"Classes from message boards are allowed, but not the Spell Compendium" - said by no DM I have ever met.


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Dean
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't really understand the value of the one copy of each spell rule either. I think if a Wizard wants 2 copies of Invisibility or Glitterdust it's no harm to give them to them. I can see you wanting to avoid move spam but if the target audience for the K-Wizard is people wanting a simpler experience then I think letting them throw Fireballs at everything might be a feature rather than a bug.

On Metamagic again. I still feel it's giving up too much content to say no offset metamagics. That is a huge number of items, feats, and class features that the class is just disallowed from interacting with. Metamagic reducing class features, Sudden metamagics, metamagic rods, all the feats and class features that give you free Empowers if your spells meet certain conditions. The only way I've ever been able to make a Wizard that can play the way people want Wizards to play is by using metamagic reducers on blasting abilities and I consider that loss a significant one.

I'm also slightly unsure how the Alpha metamagic interacts with this classes systems. Alpha metamagic doesn't seem to change a spells level and the K-Wizard has lots of language about the effects of metamagic changing your spells levels.
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...You Lost Me
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Alpha Nerd's metamagic is designed for spell slot users. The idea is that the sum of the spell level + metamagic cannot exceed your highest spell level, but the spell slot does not change. To stop people from metamagicking their durational slots, there's a stipulation that durational spells do increase in level with metamagic instead of normal where they wouldn't.
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Red_Rob
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dean wrote:
I'm also slightly unsure how the Alpha metamagic interacts with this classes systems. Alpha metamagic doesn't seem to change a spells level and the K-Wizard has lots of language about the effects of metamagic changing your spells levels.


Seems pretty simple to me. In a K-wizard slot you can prepare a spell up to level X. If you prepare a spell of level X-1 you can apply 1 level of Metamagic, and so on.
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TarkisFlux
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

...You Lost Me wrote:
Kaelik, magic missile is a cantrip. It is a cleanup spell.

Wut? Magic missile is a level 1 evocation, not a cantrip. Even if it should be.
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ubernoob
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

..

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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

...You Lost Me wrote:
This was your original argument.
Kaelik wrote:
But here, how about this: A level 1 Kaelik Wizard is only slightly stronger than a level 1 Wizard

Saying the kaelik wizard is only slightly stronger so the discrepancy can be ignored is not the same as saying the kaelik wizard is definitely stronger and that the discrepancy is intentional.


First of all, learn to read. I have never said that the discrepancy was intentional. I specifically called it an unintended benefit and multiple times said I did not design the class for level 1.

Secondly, Yes, that was, and still is my argument. The Kaelik Wizard is slightly stronger than the level 1 Wizard, because his combat contributions are the same except for clean up, and then he has some utility. That is slightly stronger.

And that slight bit of extra strength is good, because it negates the stupid bullshit that is level 1 D&D Wizards.

Kaelik wrote:
Kaelik, magic missile is a cantrip. It is a cleanup spell. The wizard gets 3 or 4 a day. The reason I didn't bother bringing that up was because it was tiny compared to the kaelik wizard's extra AoE SoL.


1) No it isn't.
2) If you magic missile to kill the last surviving kobold, or you cast sleep to put to sleep the last surviving kobold, how is that not basically the same power level. Magic Missile comes only after you have Color Sprayed, and then 3 other people have taken level appropriate actions, like killing an entire enemy, or casting color spray. THERE IS NOTHING LEFT TO SLEEP.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ice9 wrote:
But also, I don't think "one copy of each spell" is much of a balancing factor. If you want it like that for simplicity reasons, fine. But when you factor in books outside the PHB, there are at least six good spells of every level. And as for whether going outside the PHB is relevant:

"Classes from message boards are allowed, but not the Spell Compendium" - said by no DM I have ever met.


It isn't supposed to be. If you want to cast fireball 6 times a fight you should play a fire mage. People should not take a class with six options and choose the same thing over and over, but if you let them, they will. The no spell twice is purely thematic. If you want, I'm sure you can find 6 different save/no-save lose effects for every level. Hell, you can even metamagic up lower level effects if you are really desperate.

Dean wrote:
On Metamagic again. I still feel it's giving up too much content to say no offset metamagics. That is a huge number of items, feats, and class features that the class is just disallowed from interacting with. Metamagic reducing class features, Sudden metamagics, metamagic rods, all the feats and class features that give you free Empowers if your spells meet certain conditions. The only way I've ever been able to make a Wizard that can play the way people want Wizards to play is by using metamagic reducers on blasting abilities and I consider that loss a significant one.

I'm also slightly unsure how the Alpha metamagic interacts with this classes systems. Alpha metamagic doesn't seem to change a spells level and the K-Wizard has lots of language about the effects of metamagic changing your spells levels.


Wholly fucking shit then you are fucking garbage. The only wizard's I have ever played that were actually fun to play use minimal to no metamagic. If you want to blast people for damage build a goddam fucking Firemage and move on with your life.

Alpha Metamagic means that when you level up to level 5, and you still have to prepare six spells but you only know two level 3 spells you can add metamagic effects to your other spells. It is not anywhere as useful as it is for most casters, but the option exists. Personally, the only two metamagic feats I would take are duration spell and quicken spell. You might want a quickened spell at some levels such that it is worth not preparing another sixth level spell, and you might want to take the +3 to get a round per level buff up to always on buff status.
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Orion
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik, dude,

You're embarassing yourself. It's abundantly obvious at this point that you never play level 1 D&D and have no idea how level 1 D&D is played. That is a life choice I completely respect. I can even respect your declaration that you don't and won't balance to level 1. But I find it pretty fucking ridiculous that you feel the need to stick your dick in a discussion of level 1 balance anyway. The level 1 Kaelik wizard is way more than"slightly" better than a standard wizard. It's substantially better on multiple axes. In fact, it's very nearly as much better as you can be while still being a level 1 book dude.

First off: it's not 6 renewable spells vs. 3/4, it's 6+1 sustained. Always-on mage armor is a big deal at level 1. Yes, a real wizard will never memorize mage armor, but that's because they can't afford to skip a nuke spell (to be clear, I consider sleep a "nuke", not just damage spells), and also because 1 hour is still pretty bullshit. A Kaelik wizard gets mage armor for free on top of already carrying their weight in the party. That +4 AC seriously reduces your chance of suddenly exploding to goblin javelins or something. There are pretty much two things characters need to be good at: winning, and not losing. Regular wizards are almost as good at winning, but they're definitely not as good at not losing.

Also, a regular wizard's attacks are powerful but unreliable. If you run all sleep and color spray, you can get screwed by an adventure full of bugs or undead. If you diversify by dropping some of those and taking some crappy spells, you're stuck with crappy spells. Also, damage spells are better than you think, even the lowly level 1 magic missile. Magic missile is much more likely to kill a random goblin in one round than your crossbow is, so it's a noticeable upgrade in cleanup effectiveness. At level 1 you can go from full to unconscious in like 2 hits, and so preventing even a single attack is a big deal.

Finally, you're pulling some slight of hand by looking only at the challenges a level 1 party is supposed to face according to the ECL guidelines. One of the things about more powerful classes is that they can clear more powerful content. If your party has some RoW Fighters and Monk in it, odds are good that your MC may expect you to fight more than standard ECL 1 guidelines dictate. At that point, being able to nuke multiple mobs per fight becomes valuable.

Basically, you can try to tell me that having Sleep (x2) Color Spray (x2) is basically just as good as having mage armor, sleep, color spray, grease, charm person, magic missile, and magic weapon every encounter, and then I can laugh in your face. I have no diea *why* you would bother making that claim though, because it's completely unnecessary and unrelated to what you profess to care about.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Orion wrote:
It's abundantly obvious at this point that you never play level 1 D&D and have no idea how level 1 D&D is played.


It is abundantly clear that you have difficulty reading. So at the important parts I will type slower and in bold.

Orion wrote:
The level 1 Kaelik wizard is way more than"slightly" better than a standard wizard. It's substantially better on multiple axes.


I already said the Kaelik Wizard is better. I already specified this multiple times. What I said, multiple times, is that it is not S I G N I F I C A N T L Y better. Then I explained what I meant by that significance. If you want to dispute my balance statement, you need to either show how I am wrong in my definition, or dispute my definition. You have not even attempted to do either of those.

Orion wrote:
First off: it's not 6 renewable spells vs. 3/4, it's 6+1 sustained. Always-on mage armor is a big deal at level 1. Yes, a real wizard will never memorize mage armor, but that's because they can't afford to skip a nuke spell (to be clear, I consider sleep a "nuke", not just damage spells), and also because 1 hour is still pretty bullshit. A Kaelik wizard gets mage armor for free on top of already carrying their weight in the party. That +4 AC seriously reduces your chance of suddenly exploding to goblin javelins or something.


You are attempting to inform me of something I have already said. I recognize the existence of a persisted Mage Armor exists, and is non-useless. But honestly, no, it really doesn't "seriously" reduce your chances of dying to javelins, because you will take very few attack rolls, and most of them will already have a very very low chance to hit. Unless you walk into an ambush, in which case welcome to level 1, you die and you deserved it.

Also, FYI Mage armor has a duration of 12 hours under my rules, but is still bullshit that no one will cast, because they know they can survive just fine without it.

Orion wrote:
Regular wizards are almost as good at winning, but they're definitely not as good at not losing.


If the some total of the not losing comes down to "Standing behind the fighter to get cover (or partially around a corner)" then they are extremely minor benefits that have almost no effect on the whole winning encounters thing that represents significance.

Orion wrote:
Also, damage spells are better than you think, even the lowly level 1 magic missile. Magic missile is much more likely to kill a random goblin in one round than your crossbow is, so it's a noticeable upgrade in cleanup effectiveness.


Actually, no it isn't. A Magic Missile has a 0% chance of dropping a goblin, since they have 5HP, even on a max role they will still be at zero, and not dropped. But even if we assume that 0 counts, because they will drop after a standard action, still you have a 1 in 4 chance, where a Crossbow has a 50% chance of reaching that same threshold on a hit (with a non-zero chance of actually dropping the goblin). So given the AC 15 of said goblin, it follows that your are, depending on your stats and build, somewhere between the same chance and 10-15% less chance of doing the same thing, in neither case is it "much more likely"

Orion wrote:
Finally, you're pulling some slight of hand by looking only at the challenges a level 1 party is supposed to face according to the ECL guidelines. One of the things about more powerful classes is that they can clear more powerful content. If your party has some RoW Fighters and Monk in it, odds are good that your MC may expect you to fight more than standard ECL 1 guidelines dictate. At that point, being able to nuke multiple mobs per fight becomes valuable.


No, I am not pulling slight of hand by looking only at the encounters you are actually supposed to face. If you face 500 straight encounters with 16 minutes of rest between each one, the Kaelik Wizard is clearly superior by millions of light years. If on the other hand you face those same 500 encounters with only 14 minutes between each one, the Kaelik Wizard is garbage compared to the Wizard. But neither of those matter, because that is not what you are supposed to face as level 1 characters, nor do I care how you would stand against CR 4 ThatDambCrabs, because I already know the answer.

Orion wrote:
Basically, you can try to tell me that having Sleep (x2) Color Spray (x2) is basically just as good as having mage armor, sleep, color spray, grease, charm person, magic missile, and magic weapon every encounter, and then I can laugh in your face.


You should probably learn to read first.
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Pardon if this was asked already, but why 15 minutes?
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sigma999 wrote:
Pardon if this was asked already, but why 15 minutes?


It is an arbitrary time that ensures that monsters that have encountered you can continuously interrupt you with effort, and that using utility spells have some actual cost in the form of time.

It just exists to create an "out of combat" and "in combat" distinction, in a way that is really simple, the player or DM can use to their advantage, and is infinity times better than the stupid Facotutm rules.
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Eikre
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So, a level 1 core Wizard is sad that he's not a Kaelik Wizard because the core guy is:

1) Budgeting for two encounters of maybe two working rounds per nine-hour period, and that he'll accept being useless for the cleanup rounds and any additional encounters that are incurred by circumstance.

2) Not becoming a Focused Specialist, or indeed even a Sorcerer or Beguiler, because he wants to cash in on becoming better than those guys in five levels.

Since "I am not going to have fun for half the game session" and "I am not going to have fun for the first three IRL months of the game (I sure hope it lasts long enough for it to be worth it!)" are unacceptable means of balance, why do we even fucking care?

Insofar as it's relevant, you should use Druids for comparisons instead. The Druid is core, versatile, he don't care what level you start him at, and he likes a shorter workday, but stays useful for as long as the party cares to push themselves. He's a cool guy.

So, for example, at level 1, I am basically never going to want to be a core Wizard when the Druid is on the table. (Shit, I probably don't wanna be a fucking wizard if playing the scout is on the table). But I would probably play a Kaelik wizard. Good show.

Of course, I would still probably play a first-level Kaelik wizard if he only have five spells, or four. Maybe even three. So I don't know why, exactly, anybody would get fixated on budgeting him to fewer per combat in the low-level period. Since he refreshes his spells after fifteen minutes and doesn't have Quicken, three or four spells is already enough to saturate the entire combat period with full firepower.

If you really wanted him to arbitrarily behave like a core wizard actually does, you'd actually be more interested in a mechanic that keeps him from using his highest-level spells every turn, because a core wizard is saving those slots for the next trial and trying to get some use out of the second-highest slots.

You could conceivably use the "only copy of each prepared spell" as the basis for that somehow, but it's probably something more hardwired like "Yo, if you cast one of your highest-level spells more than one turn in a row, you overload and can't cast another again until your fifteen minute rest," which at level 1 means you drop Color Spray and Sleep in the first two turns and then use cantrips and crossbows, or you anticipate a longer combat and use the cantrips every other turn instead.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Eikre wrote:
If you really wanted him to arbitrarily behave like a core wizard actually does, you'd actually be more interested in a mechanic that keeps him from using his highest-level spells every turn, because a core wizard is saving those slots for the next trial and trying to get some use out of the second-highest slots.

You could conceivably use the "only copy of each prepared spell" as the basis for that somehow, but it's probably something more hardwired like "Yo, if you cast one of your highest-level spells more than one turn in a row, you overload and can't cast another again until your fifteen minute rest," which at level 1 means you drop Color Spray and Sleep in the first two turns and then use cantrips and crossbows, or you anticipate a longer combat and use the cantrips every other turn instead.


Since "behave like a Core Wizard" was not part of the design criteria and "sit in the corner playing Smash Brothers" is explicitly not what I want, adding a whole lot of complexity in order to force them to not cast their best spells each round would be a huge fucking pile of shit bad idea.
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Eikre
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Man, you don't need to tell me, your shit's fine. I'm talking to the detractors and taking them to task for failing to meet their own specifications.
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