Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Kaelik]

It's a mistake to see an archivist as a poor cleric when you should see it as a buff wizard.

For example, you can just wear full plate and a tower shield and cast Sleep and Grease before 2nd level assuming a little luck with the loot and the ability to buy items. That is a straight out-of-the box app using Domains that requires very little DM favor (basically just using the Spell Compendium). Who the fuck cares about hitting things with a weapon with a MAD non-warrior character when you could cast encounter-winning spells every turn while in heavy armor?

Second, the economics of an archivist are pretty nice with only a little thought. Rather than buy scrolls of high-level spells, you can just buy divine writings at 150 GP a page using the straight Wizard spell copying rules that Archivist function calls.... and if you assume the existence of multiclass arcane/Archivist Geometers, then divine writings are always 150 gp regardless of spell level if you are willing to accept slightly higher DCs to learn (scrolls of 1st level spells are always going to be cheaper than writings).

The spell selection of an Archivist is equal to "all the spells ever" because there are lots of divine classes that get to add spells to their list from other lists. For example, just the Fiend-blooded PrC from the same book as the Archivist proves that divine versions of every illusion, necromancy, enchantment, or fire descriptor spell in any spell list could exist as a divine writing because a high-enough level Fiend-blooded divine caster cast could add those spells to his divine spell list.

On a related note, I've always wanted to play a Geometer who used the rules for tattooing his spell formulas on his body from Complete Arcane. I'm pretty sure that I could get all of a reasonable campaign's worth of spells onto my character's body.

So your plan is to assume the DM will give you all the bullshit tactics for cheaper spells that most DMs already balk at Wizards using, even though it is way more easily done by Wizards.

And then, after you have plundered all the spells you can including bullshit like talking about how your level 20 Fiend Blooded caster has all the spells and gives them to you, you are going to cast the same spells as the Wizard, except not sometimes because sometimes you can't get them, and you are going to do this with a character who casts off two attributes instead of one, and do this in Heavy Armor that you are not proficient with.

Yeah, if someone told me I could make all my Wizard spells divine and get a d6 HD, and all I had to do was cast off two attributes, I would laugh at them, and keep casting off one.

[NineInchNall]

I can see a large portion of DMs accepting that you can buy scrolls of domain spells. I can even see some of them letting you buy scrolls of spells from consolation-prize lists. But buying scrolls from variant classes (divine Bard) or some scribed as divine by use of an additional prestige class from an additional book?

[Kaelik]

I can see a large portion of DMs accepting that you can buy scrolls of domain spells. I can even see some of them letting you buy scrolls of spells from consolation-prize lists. But buying scrolls from variant classes (divine Bard) or some scribed as divine by use of an additional prestige class from an additional book?

Yeah it is basically the same thing as saying your Wizard got some Wizard 6/Wyrm Wizard 5/Geometer 9 character to make a spellbook for you to copy from that includes all spells as Wizard spells (Because Wyrm Wizards can make any spell a spell on their class list) or a Wizard with Spontaneous Divination and 10 levels in Rainbow Coatl Mage, to write a book for you, so now you get all the spells.

Every DM is immediately going to shit bricks and tell you that the price rules in Hamlets only apply to People making scrolls of their class, and that if you want to find a Fiend Blooded asshole to scribe a scroll, you can find one in game, hint none exist, and if they do they want to kill you not make a spellbook for you to copy off of from level 1.

So for the exact reasons Wizards don't have all the spells at all the levels, Archivists don't either. But even if they did, you are still casting off of two stats, which is objectively inferior, and I wouldn't trade casting of one stat for getting to wear Heavy Armor I'm not proficient in. (Or even that I am frankly).

[RadiantPhoenix]

If I knew that the game was going to end at a low level, I might take the bargain for heavy armor.

It would probably need to be before level 6, though.

[NineInchNall]

I wouldn't trade casting of one stat for getting to wear Heavy Armor I'm not proficient in. (Or even that I am frankly).

I can't fathom why people have such raging clue for armored casting. When the Geometer first came out, I remember people going nuts for the ability to treat their spells as divine and OMG casting in armor OMG.

And you're right: dual stat casting sucks donkey balls. I've had people ask about min/maxing Favored Souls, and my response has always been, "Play a Cleric."

[K]

I can see a large portion of DMs accepting that you can buy scrolls of domain spells. I can even see some of them letting you buy scrolls of spells from consolation-prize lists. But buying scrolls from variant classes (divine Bard) or some scribed as divine by use of an additional prestige class from an additional book?

Yeah it is basically the same thing as saying your Wizard got some Wizard 6/Wyrm Wizard 5/Geometer 9 character to make a spellbook for you to copy from that includes all spells as Wizard spells (Because Wyrm Wizards can make any spell a spell on their class list) or a Wizard with Spontaneous Divination and 10 levels in Rainbow Coatl Mage, to write a book for you, so now you get all the spells.

You are missing the point entirely.

The fact that the game accepts that these things could exist means that any Warlock 12 in the world can make the scrolls that the community of Archivists can copy from, any wish can summon them up, and any Ye Olde Magic Shoppe in literally every town in the setting by RAW has them because DMs fiddling with a rationale and backstory for every magic item that PCs need to keep up with monster stats is stupid.

Shit, just the idea that your setting's Archivists aren't trading rare divine spells like Pokemon is stupid.

The argument you use on your DM is "hey, have you noticed that the cleric list kinda sucks without the rest of the cleric package? You pretty much need to let me have the things the rules and default DnD setting explicitly allows."

The argument you don't use is "let me find some theoretical caster in your snowflake campaign." The Fighter isn't using that to find casters big enough to get his next bonus upgrade for his magic armor or to buy new magic arrows and the casters shouldn't either.

So for the exact reasons Wizards don't have all the spells at all the levels, Archivists don't either. But even if they did, you are still casting off of two stats, which is objectively inferior, and I wouldn't trade casting of one stat for getting to wear Heavy Armor I'm not proficient in. (Or even that I am frankly).

Archivists aren't casting off two stats. They are casting off one stat for DCs and max spells which is crazy important and another stat for a meager number of bonus spells which is useless after 4th level (seriously, are you ever going to get more than a handful of low level spells even when it's a primary stat?). It's a illusionary weakness to draw people off the idea that Archivists are crazy good.

Heavy armor and a Tower Shield is ten points of AC before enchantment, and that's a pretty big deal when you are actually playing DnD and actually getting attacked by monsters on the regular. Not being proficient may screw your to-hit, but only a moron is trying to hit things with a caster when they could win encounters with single spells (where are the good ray spells... oh wait, there are none).

[K]

I can't fathom why people have such raging clue for armored casting. When the Geometer first came out, I remember people going nuts for the ability to treat their spells as divine and OMG casting in armor OMG.

You mean Geomancer, not Geometer.

[OgreBattle]

I wouldn't trade casting of one stat for getting to wear Heavy Armor I'm not proficient in. (Or even that I am frankly).

I can't fathom why people have such raging clue for armored casting. When the Geometer first came out, I remember people going nuts for the ability to treat their spells as divine and OMG casting in armor OMG.

It's one of the 'obvious' elements of 'balance' in D&D that people can grasp without having any actual understanding of gameplay. Wizards don't wear armor, clerics don't use blades, Rogues don't use greatweapons, Fighters don't do everything else.

[DSMatticus]

meager number of bonus spells which is useless after 4th level (seriously, are you ever going to get more than a handful of low level spells even when it's a primary stat?).

and that's a pretty big deal when you are actually playing DnD

I find the juxtaposition of these two statements hilarious. If you go forth and try actually playing D&D with a SAD caster, you will find that your casting attribute is worth 1-2 spells of every single spell level you can cast.

You're a first level gray elf wizard. You get one first level spell just for existing, but you get two from your +5 intelligence modifier.

You're a seventeenth level gray elf wizard who has maxed out their intelligence (18 base +2 race +5 ability score increases +5 inherent +6 enhancement). You get one ninth level spell just for existing, but you get two from your +13 intelligence modifier. And you also get two eighth level, two seventh level, and two sixth level. And then 16 more spells after that.

[erik]

I can't fathom why people have such raging clue for armored casting. When the Geometer first came out, I remember people going nuts for the ability to treat their spells as divine and OMG casting in armor OMG.

You mean Geomancer, not Geometer.

I was wondering about that. Geometers do get their Spell Glyph things which count as still-silent spells, but they're quasi-scrolls so you're not just getting them for free.
[edit: oh, and I guess they aren't Still, just Silent. Old memories betraying me]

I do like Geometer for the uber-trapfinding and pseudo Boccob's Blessed Book since I almost exclusively wind up playing in treasure-poor campaigns with no downtime for item creation. I had a pre-geometer (didn't get high enough level to enter prestige) in Living Greyhawk who pleased me by having a higher search check than most rogues I played with.

[Kaelik]

The fact that the game accepts that these things could exist means that any Warlock 12 in the world can make the scrolls that the community of Archivists can copy from, any wish can summon them up, and any Ye Olde Magic Shoppe in literally every town in the setting by RAW has them because DMs fiddling with a rationale and backstory for every magic item that PCs need to keep up with monster stats is stupid.

Shit, just the idea that your setting's Archivists aren't trading rare divine spells like Pokemon is stupid.

The argument you use on your DM is "hey, have you noticed that the cleric list kinda sucks without the rest of the cleric package? You pretty much need to let me have the things the rules and default DnD setting explicitly allows."

1) The scrolls are way more expensive.
2) Your argument "Just Cleric spells are bad, so therefore you should give me all transmutation spells of all lists because of Fiend Blooded" is going to be laughed out of the table unless they are Tome level games.
3) People already throw shit fits when Wizards try to copy spells from other Wizards spellbooks for the price listed in the PHB. They are not going to give your archivist writings of the sacred Fiend Blooded Transmutation Wizard spells.

Archivists aren't casting off two stats. They are casting off one stat for DCs and max spells which is crazy important and another stat for a meager number of bonus spells which is useless after 4th level (seriously, are you ever going to get more than a handful of low level spells even when it's a primary stat?). It's a illusionary weakness to draw people off the idea that Archivists are crazy good.

A Wizard can keep his stat high enough to get 2 bonus spells at his highest level at all times. As compared to your 1 into 0. That makes a huge difference when the Wizard has 3 (or 4) 5th or 6th level spells and you have 1. And you are trading that for the ability to be slower and maybe have more AC, because the Wizard can get no arcane spell failure chain shirt and a buckler already for for slightly more than you spend for Full plate that holds you to 20ft.

Heavy armor and a Tower Shield is ten points of AC before enchantment, and that's a pretty big deal when you are actually playing DnD and actually getting attacked by monsters on the regular. Not being proficient may screw your to-hit, but only a moron is trying to hit things with a caster when they could win encounters with single spells (where are the good ray spells... oh wait, there are none).

So you give up speed, the ability to use ray spells, and a huge number of spells especially your highest level spells in order to get +10 AC which at low levels you can't afford, at mid to low levels you are blowing all your money on and still is relatively useful for attack rolls, but probably not better than trying to stay back, and then becomes absolutely useless later. Also d6 HD.

And for this you give up only the garbage ray spells:

Ray of Exhaustion
Ray of Stupidity
Ray of Dizziness
Ray of Stun
Otto's Irresistable Dance (that you can get as a level 6 spell from Divine Bard in order to miss with your -10 to attack rolls)
AntiMagic Ray
Darkbolt
Freeze
Ghoul Gesture
SaltRay
EDIT: Avasculate

Yeah that is totally worth.

[NineInchNall]

You mean Geomancer, not Geometer.

That I do.

[K]

meager number of bonus spells which is useless after 4th level (seriously, are you ever going to get more than a handful of low level spells even when it's a primary stat?).

and that's a pretty big deal when you are actually playing DnD

I find the juxtaposition of these two statements hilarious. If you go forth and try actually playing D&D with a SAD caster, you will find that your casting attribute is worth 1-2 spells of every single spell level you can cast.

You're a first level gray elf wizard. You get one first level spell just for existing, but you get two from your +5 intelligence modifier.

You're a seventeenth level gray elf wizard who has maxed out their intelligence (18 base +2 race +5 ability score increases +5 inherent +6 enhancement). You get one ninth level spell just for existing, but you get two from your +13 intelligence modifier. And you also get two eighth level, two seventh level, and two sixth level. And then 16 more spells after that.

At 1st level, one extra spell of an Int 20 over an Int 12 is nothing because you are still plinking away with a crossbow on a lot of combat turns (the DCs are a big deal though because it's +4). At 17th level, you stopped caring about needing more spells per day about twelve levels ago.

It breaks down like this: by around 5th level you have enough spells to cast something really good every round of every combat you are going to fight that day. It may not be the most perfectly optimized DCs, and of course you'd love to cast slots from a higher level for the DCs alone, but at the end of the day you are crushing the game. A few extra Time Stops at 17th level is great and everything, but it was "and then the Wizard wins the encounter with [insert spells like Solid Fog]" for a really long time.

[K]

Heavy armor and a Tower Shield is ten points of AC before enchantment, and that's a pretty big deal when you are actually playing DnD and actually getting attacked by monsters on the regular. Not being proficient may screw your to-hit, but only a moron is trying to hit things with a caster when they could win encounters with single spells (where are the good ray spells... oh wait, there are none).

So you give up speed, the ability to use ray spells, and a huge number of spells especially your highest level spells in order to get +10 AC which at low levels you can't afford, at mid to low levels you are blowing all your money on and still is relatively useful for attack rolls, but probably not better than trying to stay back, and then becomes absolutely useless later. Also d6 HD.

And for this you give up only the garbage ray spells:

Ray of Exhaustion
Ray of Stupidity
Ray of Dizziness
Ray of Stun
Otto's Irresistable Dance (that you can get as a level 6 spell from Divine Bard in order to miss with your -10 to attack rolls)
AntiMagic Ray
Darkbolt
Freeze
Ghoul Gesture
SaltRay

Yeah that is totally worth.

Those are terrible spells. Really awful. They aren't even the ray spells I'd miss a little before I came to my senses and realized that there are better spells that aren't rays.

And movement? When did spellcasters give a shit about movement? The last time I checked, playing the movement game with monsters instead of controlling their movement is a recipe for losing.

[Username17]

Second, the economics of an archivist are pretty nice with only a little thought. Rather than buy scrolls of high-level spells, you can just buy divine writings at 150 GP a page using the straight Wizard spell copying rules that Archivist function calls.... and if you assume the existence of multiclass arcane/Archivist Geometers, then divine writings are always 150 gp regardless of spell level if you are willing to accept slightly higher DCs to learn (scrolls of 1st level spells are always going to be cheaper than writings).

This is completely ridiculous. If you're going to demand to use the open access rules for magic items be used, all you're going to get is basic magic items. Not ones that have been modified by any funky abilities, because the rules don't actually make any provision for that ever happening at all.

We all know that if you used Divine or Sudden Metamagic to modify a magic item you were making, that the effect would become better but the spell level (and thus production cost) would not change. Nevertheless, when you buy a healing potion, you get a 1st level casting of cure light wounds - not a casting of cure light wounds modified by Divine Metamagic Empower or Sudden Maximize. Sure it would be better to get those potions made by someone with sudden metamagic abilities, but when you go on the abstract item market that is not what you get.

Let's go to the simplest possible scenario: you are a Sorcerer and you'd like to pick up a Wand of cure light wounds. Now Nagas get to make cure light wounds wands as Sorcerer wands, so if a Naga made that wand, you'd be able to use it. But you know what? You have never in your life played with a DM who would let you buy one made in that way using the abstract item purchasing rules for small settlements. Not once in the entire history of your gaming career have you played under a DM that was permissive in that particular fashion. And that's not surprising, because actually there is no rule in the game saying that you should be allowed to do that.

But here's the thing: Naga wands are core. They are in the Monster Manual I. They are not spread out between two or three dubious expansion books that the DM likely has not read, it's in the core rules and your DM brings the book in question to games on his own. Being an Archivist at all requires invoking more obscure rules than Naga Wands. And asking to be able to purchase magic items made by Divine Bard Geometers? Gimme a fucking break.

Basically you're falling back to the same argument that everyone who has ever defended or supported the Archivist in any context has always done: that Archivists are going to be allowed to use cheesy bullshit that would never fly in a million years if a wizard player asked for it on the simple grounds that otherwise Archivists are extremely terrible. But here's the deal "If I don't get to cheat, I don't get to play." is an argument that you don't get to play, not an argument that you get to cheat.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

Heavy armor and a Tower Shield is ten points of AC before enchantment, and that's a pretty big deal when you are actually playing DnD and actually getting attacked by monsters on the regular. Not being proficient may screw your to-hit, but only a moron is trying to hit things with a caster when they could win encounters with single spells (where are the good ray spells... oh wait, there are none).

So you give up speed, the ability to use ray spells, and a huge number of spells especially your highest level spells in order to get +10 AC which at low levels you can't afford, at mid to low levels you are blowing all your money on and still is relatively useful for attack rolls, but probably not better than trying to stay back, and then becomes absolutely useless later. Also d6 HD.

And for this you give up only the garbage ray spells:

Ray of Exhaustion
Ray of Stupidity
Ray of Dizziness
Ray of Stun
Otto's Irresistable Dance (that you can get as a level 6 spell from Divine Bard in order to miss with your -10 to attack rolls)
AntiMagic Ray
Darkbolt
Freeze
Ghoul Gesture
SaltRay

Yeah that is totally worth.

Those are terrible spells. Really awful. They aren't even the ray spells I'd miss a little before I came to my senses and realized that there are better spells that aren't rays.

And movement? When did spellcasters give a shit about movement? The last time I checked, playing the movement game with monsters instead of controlling their movement is a recipe for losing.

You don't even know what half those spells do, but for fun, name two ray spells you think are better than those.

EDIT: I notice that I forgot Avasculate, so if you want to use that one try three.

[DSMatticus]

meager number of bonus spells which is useless after 4th level (seriously, are you ever going to get more than a handful of low level spells even when it's a primary stat?).

and that's a pretty big deal when you are actually playing DnD

I find the juxtaposition of these two statements hilarious. If you go forth and try actually playing D&D with a SAD caster, you will find that your casting attribute is worth 1-2 spells of every single spell level you can cast.

You're a first level gray elf wizard. You get one first level spell just for existing, but you get two from your +5 intelligence modifier.

You're a seventeenth level gray elf wizard who has maxed out their intelligence (18 base +2 race +5 ability score increases +5 inherent +6 enhancement). You get one ninth level spell just for existing, but you get two from your +13 intelligence modifier. And you also get two eighth level, two seventh level, and two sixth level. And then 16 more spells after that.

At 1st level, one extra spell of an Int 20 over an Int 12 is nothing because you are still plinking away with a crossbow on a lot of combat turns (the DCs are a big deal though because it's +3). At 17th level, you stopped caring about needing more spells per day about twelve levels ago.

It breaks down like this: by around 5th level you have enough spells to cast something really good every round of every combat you are going to fight that day. It may not be the most perfectly optimized DCs, and of course you'd love to cast slots from a higher level for the DCs alone, but at the end of the day you are crushing the game. A few extra Time Stops at 17th level is great and everything, but it was "and then the Wizard wins the encounter with [insert spells like Solid Fog]" for a really long time.

There are zero people who are ever going to read this and mistakenly think you have a point. You seriously just made the argument "what first level wizard cares about an extra color spray?" The answer is all of them. All first level wizards care about that. Also, you have transitioned from "you're only ever going to get a handful of low level spells, and nobody cares about a bunch of low level spell slots" to "okay, you can get high level spell slots, but who cares because you already have a bunch of low level spell slots." That is irreconcilable.

But it doesn't even matter, because you don't magically stop getting bonus spell slots in the 2-16 range just because I picked 1 and 17 as my examples. At the level when wizards get their single casting of solid fog (you know, that spell you mentioned), their intelligence attribute will double or triple that.

[K]

But here's the thing: Naga wands are core. They are in the Monster Manual I. They are not spread out between two or three dubious expansion books that the DM likely has not read, it's in the core rules and your DM brings the book in question to games on his own. Being an Archivist at all requires invoking more obscure rules than Naga Wands. And asking to be able to purchase magic items made by Divine Bard Geometers? Gimme a fucking break.

Your DM already approved letting you play one of the most obscure classes from one of the worst-selling books. Letting you buy items out of something as vanilla as Complete Arcane items seem pretty tame in comparison.

And honestly, it's the same deal as saying that you want to play a core Fighter or a core Monk or a core Bard or any number of shit classes. They all need constant DM care packages to continue playing the game and asking your DM to toss in an occasional divine spells spellbook or friendly Ye Old Magic Shoppe with discount divine spells is nothing different.

[Dean]

meager number of bonus spells which is useless after 4th level (seriously, are you ever going to get more than a handful of low level spells even when it's a primary stat?).

and that's a pretty big deal when you are actually playing DnD

I find the juxtaposition of these two statements hilarious.

I don't. We're well into the second decade since 3.E was new. I'm sure if you join a 5E game today you're playing at first level but that's not at all true of 3.E games that I've seen for many years now. 15 years into the playcycle with the dev's having made regular points about how the game works best around level 6. It's impacted the community. In the clubs I see people running 3.E games in the median appears to start around level 6. I do think the idea that all games must start at level 1 is much less prevalent in modern day 3E campaigns than you seem to think.

[K]

But it doesn't even matter, because you don't magically stop getting bonus spell slots in the 2-16 range just because I picked 1 and 17 as my examples. At the level when wizards get their single casting of solid fog (you know, that spell you mentioned), their intelligence attribute will double or triple that.

And people shouldn't care. They've been casting enough encounter-winning spells against level-appropriate challenges for a while, and ending your day with a handful of uncast slots is not going to change the outcome of any of your battles or encounters.

Sure, they will care, but only because people love optimizing DnD to a stupid degree. For example, they'll trade a few slots they'll never cast for ten points of AC that actually will keep their character alive (see arguments against armored casters).

[Username17]

But it doesn't even matter, because you don't magically stop getting bonus spell slots in the 2-16 range just because I picked 1 and 17 as my examples. At the level when wizards get their single casting of solid fog (you know, that spell you mentioned), their intelligence attribute will double or triple that.

And people shouldn't care. They've been casting enough encounter-winning spells against level-appropriate challenges for a while, and ending your day with a handful of uncast slots is not going to change the outcome of any of your battles or encounters.

Sure, they will care, but only because people love optimizing DnD to a stupid degree. For example, they'll trade a few slots they'll never cast for ten points of AC that actually will keep their character alive (see arguments against armored casters).

You seem to have completely forgotten how many spells casters actually get before their bonus spells. It is not very many. A Wizard gets one spell at base. The bonus spells from school specialization and attributes are a really big deal. It's the difference between being able to lay down an encounter winning spell in one encounter and the ability to lay down an encounter winning spell in three encounters.

As for your weird ideas about spending 2,000+ gold on heavy armor you aren't proficient with... that's a weird idea. There are times it would be useful. I've made the Mounted Shugenja in Great Armor character, and it kinda works. But it's honestly a pretty limited character. The fact that you have literally nothing to fall back on when you run out of spells (because even plinking away with a crossbow is denied to you when you take non-proficiency penalties on heavy armor) is actually a pretty big deal, and the fact that you can't move for shit if you don't have your horse is also a pretty big deal. Especially at low level when all the spells you want to hurt people with have stupidly short ranges.

Remember though: if you really want to cast Cleric spells while dressed in heavy armor, you know you can just be a Cleric, right?

-Username17

[K]

You seem to have completely forgotten how many spells casters actually get before their bonus spells. It is not very many. A Wizard gets one spell at base. The bonus spells from school specialization and attributes are a really big deal. It's the difference between being able to lay down an encounter winning spell in one encounter and the ability to lay down an encounter winning spell in three encounters.

The concerns of 1st level are gone by 5th level. Seriously, by 5th level you start loading up on almost unneeded spells like alarm because it's trouble to find things to do with slots.

As for your weird ideas about spending 2,000+ gold on heavy armor you aren't proficient with... that's a weird idea. There are times it would be useful. I've made the Mounted Shugenja in Great Armor character, and it kinda works. But it's honestly a pretty limited character. The fact that you have literally nothing to fall back on when you run out of spells (because even plinking away with a crossbow is denied to you when you take non-proficiency penalties on heavy armor) is actually a pretty big deal, and the fact that you can't move for shit if you don't have your horse is also a pretty big deal. Especially at low level when all the spells you want to hurt people with have stupidly short ranges.

Remember though: if you really want to cast Cleric spells while dressed in heavy armor, you know you can just be a Cleric, right?

-Username17

Did plinking away with a crossbow suddenly get good? I thought it was that comic time-waster people did while the fighting guys mopped up the encounter at low level.

The point of an Archivist is not to be a Cleric. You very specifically want to be a Wizard with a flat superior casting type, armor, and access to all the spell lists of all the classes. How much you get to do that is as much a negotiation with your DM as other negotiations like "how good will you let illusions be" or "what do you think charm can do?" or "so I want to specialize in Diplomacy."

[Username17]

The point of an Archivist is not to be a Cleric. You very specifically want to be a Wizard with a flat superior casting type, armor, and access to all the spell lists of all the classes. How much you get to do that is as much a negotiation with your DM as other negotiations like "how good will you let illusions be" or "what do you think charm can do?" or "so I want to specialize in Diplomacy."

No. Because those things are available from level 1. Archivists, even if your DM eventually decides to let you plunder some weird spell list for a killer app or seven is not going to have any of that at level 1. Hell, they aren't going to have that at level 5. You need time, you need money, and you need DM pity in order to get your hands on the spells you need to not suck, and at low level the DM isn't going to give you any of those things.

Wizards get by on just their free spells for a long time, and if you want to roll an Archivist you're going to have to do that too. And that means being a really really shitty Cleric for a long, long time. Archivist doesn't really come into their own until 9th level. That's the level your free spells for leveling up are going to be plane shift and wall of stone, which are totally respectable life choices to begin with, and it's also the level you finally have enough gold and travel powers to get access to weird bullshit spells to scribe from obscure parts of the setting. Further, since your character has been a lead weight for eight fucking levels before this, you have accumulated enough DM Pity that you can actually expect to contact the Geometer's Guild or the Fochlucan Lyricists or whatever the fuck it is you need to do to get the spells you wanted.

So sure, somehow get to 9th level, get the DM to agree to let you have access to your flavor of artifact sword, and it's kind of like you're a Wizard with a few weird tricks and some awesome spells at weird levels. That's... a plan. But it's not a good plan. It's not a plan that involves being a playable character in any game that doesn't start at mid-level.

Here, I'll quote what you wrote on the Archivist when it came out:

Don’t be an Archivist:
Archivists don't have Domains or Rebuking, and they don't automatically know all the Cleric spells. So unless something weird happens, they are in all ways inferior to a Cleric at Necromancy, or anything else. That weird thing, of course, is that as an Archivist you have the ability to have the DM allow you to find powerful and unique spells that you can scribe into your book and rock the house with. But these spells aren't under your control. They fall into your lap because the DM puts them in your lap, and not otherwise.

So there aren't really any Archivist "builds". It's just a "maybe the DM will give you some cool things to do" class. Like Pun-Pun, the power of any particular Artificer has nothing whatsoever to do with its own intrinsic abilities, it is entirely based on whatever the DM felt like forking over out of pity because you couldn't do anything good on your own. And when it comes down to it, Wizards already have the "The DM can give you additional awesome spells by dumping magical writings in your lap" power. And they are independently good. So no, we won't give any examples of Archivist builds, because they aren't independently verifiable.

-Username17

[Axebird]

Fun (and often overlooked) fact: When you're not proficient with armor you're wearing, you also take a penalty on Str and Dex based ability checks.

Nonproficient with Armor Worn
A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shields.

...and initiative is a Dexterity check.

Initiative Checks
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check...

While wearing heavy armor you're not proficient in is a fun way to boost your AC as a divine caster, you also pretty much need to come to terms with the fact that unless you can mitigate the ACP by quite a lot, you're probably going last.

[K]

Here, I'll quote what you wrote on the Archivist when it came out:

Don’t be an Archivist:
Archivists don't have Domains or Rebuking, and they don't automatically know all the Cleric spells. So unless something weird happens, they are in all ways inferior to a Cleric at Necromancy, or anything else. That weird thing, of course, is that as an Archivist you have the ability to have the DM allow you to find powerful and unique spells that you can scribe into your book and rock the house with. But these spells aren't under your control. They fall into your lap because the DM puts them in your lap, and not otherwise.

So there aren't really any Archivist "builds". It's just a "maybe the DM will give you some cool things to do" class. Like Pun-Pun, the power of any particular Artificer has nothing whatsoever to do with its own intrinsic abilities, it is entirely based on whatever the DM felt like forking over out of pity because you couldn't do anything good on your own. And when it comes down to it, Wizards already have the "The DM can give you additional awesome spells by dumping magical writings in your lap" power. And they are independently good. So no, we won't give any examples of Archivist builds, because they aren't independently verifiable.

-Username17

Sure, they don't pass the CharOp sniff test, but neither do the majority of classes that people want to play. You play this class after a conversation with your DM. If he says that he won't drop divine writing on you, then you don't play it.

It's basically the same conversation you have if you want to play an enchanter, or an illusionist, a diplomancer, a high-level stabbing character, a monk, and many others. Some campaigns will make these terrible choices and some won't.