Movable type comes to D&Dland

[Grek]

If so, those uses would be fantastically more valuable than anything involving a dead cow.

Those are all for D&Dverse applications. There are no IRL applications for D&D spells because real life humans do not have an Int score. Or class levels. Or standard actions.

[Username17]

Erik,

Where are you getting the idea that you could get level 1 spells from a college course? It takes 7 years, on average, to get to level 1 as a wizard. Level 1 spells are a Masters in spellcasting that comes after a BA in spell theory.

1st level Human Wizards start at an average age of 22.
2.8% of first level Wizards are 17 years old.
That is in no way equivalent to a master's degree.

-Username17

[Reynard]

7 years don't look like bachelor's degree either.

In other news: Five-year-old passes Microsoft exam

[hyzmarca]

7 years don't look like bachelor's degree either.

In other news: Five-year-old passes Microsoft exam

7 years is less than a bachelors degree.

Elementry School: 6 years.
Middle School: 3 Years
High School: 4 Years.
Bachelors: 4 years.

Your average wizard apprentice starts at at ages ten 10 to 15 and has no formal education before that.

So we're talking middle school and high school, basically.

[erik]

Erik,

Where are you getting the idea that you could get level 1 spells from a college course? It takes 7 years, on average, to get to level 1 as a wizard. Level 1 spells are a Masters in spellcasting that comes after a BA in spell theory.

My imagination, such as it is. I was going with the whole notion of the start of the thread where magic is able to be learned by reading it. Possibly went to bit overboard by saying just one course, but I regret nothing.

Still though I don't think we can rely on the aging chart for how long it takes to learn something. I would take those as just a certain random distribution of ages to expect to see for those classes. I don't really put much stock in those at all since they are so wildly dispersed. Are we really going to posit that half orcs learn wizardry much faster than elves or anyone but humans?

The more I can ignore those age charts the saner I feel.

[nockermensch]

7 years don't look like bachelor's degree either.

In other news: Five-year-old passes Microsoft exam

7 years is less than a bachelors degree.

Elementry School: 6 years.
Middle School: 3 Years
High School: 4 Years.
Bachelors: 4 years.

Your average wizard apprentice starts at at ages ten 10 to 15 and has no formal education before that.

So we're talking middle school and high school, basically.

Maybe, but you're not teaching your wizard apprentices social studies, literature or geography. They start with the technical education right away (first with the most menial tasks, but still).

[Seerow]

7 years don't look like bachelor's degree either.

In other news: Five-year-old passes Microsoft exam

7 years is less than a bachelors degree.

Elementry School: 6 years.
Middle School: 3 Years
High School: 4 Years.
Bachelors: 4 years.

Your average wizard apprentice starts at at ages ten 10 to 15 and has no formal education before that.

So we're talking middle school and high school, basically.

Maybe, but you're not teaching your wizard apprentices social studies, literature or geography. They start with the technical education right away (first with the most menial tasks, but still).

You're not? Where do they get the "all knowledge skills are class skills" then?

[Kaelik]

Erik,

Where are you getting the idea that you could get level 1 spells from a college course? It takes 7 years, on average, to get to level 1 as a wizard. Level 1 spells are a Masters in spellcasting that comes after a BA in spell theory.

I started education when I was 10, I could see how someone starting their education sooner in spells might be learning spell theory from 10-17 instead of 18-25.

[schpeelah]

You're not? Where do they get the "all knowledge skills are class skills" then?

All knowledge skills are class skills because any particular wizard could have studied a particular field. They don't automatically have any of those knowledge skills however.

[Kaelik]

You're not? Where do they get the "all knowledge skills are class skills" then?

All knowledge skills are class skills because any particular wizard could have studied a particular field. They don't automatically have any of those knowledge skills however.

A level 1 Human Wizard with 12 int has four skills at four ranks. Whether those four skills are diplomacy, knowledges, concentration, spellcraft, whatever, they represent a significant education aside from the ability to cast level 1 spells.

[Previn]

bullshit spells equals bullshit money.

Your point is that the DnD "economy" (this is what we call the bullshit prices the designers randomly put next to items/services in books) is bullshit. Everyone knows that.

Set the prices wherever you like because being as good as 2-3 peasants or one horse is always going to earn you as much as 2-3 peasants or one horse.

The cost to stable, feed and care for an average horse is around 4100$ per year in real money. So while a conjured up horse may be able to do the same work as a normal horse, it sees significant savings because you don't have to deal with everything else about having an actual horse. Oh, and the Mount also comes with it's own riding equipment.

Of course I covered this in the first post.

As for the 'cost saves' found in D&D economics, you should be ashamed of yourself since you know how disingenuous that argument is.

[nockermensch]

Your point is that the DnD "economy" (this is what we call the bullshit prices the designers randomly put next to items/services in books) is bullshit. Everyone knows that.

Set the prices wherever you like because being as good as 2-3 peasants or one horse is always going to earn you as much as 2-3 peasants or one horse.

The cost to stable, feed and care for an average horse is around 4100$ per year in real money. So while a conjured up horse may be able to do the same work as a normal horse, it sees significant savings because you don't have to deal with everything else about having an actual horse. Oh, and the Mount also comes with it's own riding equipment.

Of course I covered this in the first post.

As for the 'cost saves' found in D&D economics, you should be ashamed of yourself since you know how disingenuous that argument is.

This is fucked up.

Look to the end effect you want: "Having the services of a horse".

Now one one side, write 4100$. This is the real cost, per year, of having an actual fucking horse that will provide work for you. That is about 11.22$ / day. For a horse that will incidentally work for hours (no idea of how many hours a day a horse can work, but it should be more than one).

On the other side, write the yearly cost you'll need to pay for a wizard to summon a horse every day for you. I don't know what gp to $ conversion you're using, but I suspect that that will be significantly more expensive than 11.22$ / day. Also, the cheapest wizard will summon a horse that only last for one hour. So the magical method not only is more expensive, but also less efficient.

From another perspective: Ignoring PHB spellcasting costs, consider the prospects of trying to hire a wizard to cast Mount daily for your business. The wizard you're trying to hire can work in much more lucrative fields, like being a sworn translator, a researcher, a sleep therapist or whatever. He'd won't accept a "horse summoner" job because the pay you can offer for your business to compete with the guy who just built the fucking stable is less than wizards can get elsewhere. Therefore, Mount isn't the basis for an economically viable business.

[Ancient History]

I'm just waiting for the golem horse argument.

[hyzmarca]

I'm just waiting for the golem horse argument.

I prefer skeletal horses, personally. They're more stylish.

[Previn]

On the other side, write the yearly cost you'll need to pay for a wizard to summon a horse every day for you. I don't know what gp to $ conversion you're using, but I suspect that that will be significantly more expensive than 11.22$ / day. Also, the cheapest wizard will summon a horse that only last for one hour. So the magical method not only is more expensive, but also less efficient.

Ok, I don't normally do this, but you are stupid. First Mount lasts 2 hours at first level, but second the costs of things in D&D is stupid, idiotic, wrong and anytime you try and use what is actually a totally nonsensical economy to argue why 'wizards make bank, because PHB costs' you are an idiot.

The magical method of summoning a horse HAS NO ACTUAL COST. The assumed cost to get a wizard to do it for you as per the PHB is RETARDED, and you should feel bad for using that as any sort of basis for, well pretty much anything.

The wizard you're trying to hire can work in much more lucrative fields, like being a sworn translator, a researcher, a sleep therapist or whatever. He'd won't accept a "horse summoner" job because the pay you can offer for your business to compete with the guy who just built the fucking stable is less than wizards can get elsewhere. Therefore, Mount isn't the basis for an economically viable business.

Sleep lasts for 1 minute at 1st level, so you're noting going to be racking up anything useful as a sleep therapist with that. You can't function as an effective translator at 1st level since Comp. Languages doesn't let you speak/read )or impart meaning), and really it's duration is way to short. As for delivering stuff not being an economically viable business, well you're wrong because people make a living do that now, and in the past.

This all ignoring the major points to try and nitpick an exceedingly minor detail in the most asinine way ever though, so whatever.

[K]

I'm just waiting for the golem horse argument.

I prefer skeletal horses, personally. They're more stylish.

Neither matters. The nobleman who hires a wizard once to set up permanent teleport circles is going to corner the trade on the shipping of small goods and mail and his costs are going to be super low because he can hire untrained peasants as his workers instead of wizards.

[erik]

You can't function as an effective translator at 1st level since Comp. Languages doesn't let you speak/read )or impart meaning), and really it's duration is way to short.

Just a minor nit pick. You can read with Comp Languages.
And a pair of wizards could act as translators (each understanding the other side) but not for longer than a minor conversation.

Traveling one step closer towards horse golems and further down the rabbit hole of cost efficiency with all the fuckedupedness of D&D economy- come 3rd level you get craft wondrous items and can bang out hats of Comprehend Language for 900 gp + 72 xp (pricing it off hat of disguise). So wizards will quickly work themselves out of the translator jobs because they can sell or rent hats to do a much better job.

And so it goes with almost everything a low level wizard can accomplish. Getting to first level wizard is just the first step towards real ultimate power. Getting any spells at all is cool but that's only the beginning.

This does support the only point that Reynard can lay claim to that isn't retarded on its face- in ubiquitous wizard world, level 1 is not an outstanding place to be. But it is still mandatory for getting to the higher levels which remain an outstanding place to be.

[Starmaker]

1st level Human Wizards start at an average age of 22.
2.8% of first level Wizards are 17 years old.
That is in no way equivalent to a master's degree.

I got a Master's in particle physics at 22. Could've been 21 if I hadn't wasted a year working full time.

[Grek]

You do the translator thing using Comp Languages and Scholar's Touch. This lets your two interpreters exchange 25000 words of text, plus a 10 minute conversation to clarify any confusing or contentious points.

[nockermensch]

The magical method of summoning a horse HAS NO ACTUAL COST.

"The medical method of providing a diagnostic and a prescription HAS NO ACTUAL COST."

"The legal method of composing a contract HAS NO ACTUAL COST."

"The graphical designer method of creating a logo HAS NO ACTUAL COST."

See what you done? Feeling retarded yet?

Sleep lasts for 1 minute at 1st level, so you're noting going to be racking up anything useful as a sleep therapist with that. You can't function as an effective translator at 1st level since Comp. Languages doesn't let you speak/read )or impart meaning), and really it's duration is way to short.

Dude, Comp. Languages at the weakest level lets you perfectly translate 2,500 words / day. The "doesn't impart meaning" means that when you translate technical texts you personally don't understand what they mean, but the magic makes the right translated words for it to appear in your mind anyway.

Comp. Languages + shorthand writing = perfect translation services. (10 pages / day, or 10 minutes of any foreigner speaking for a beginner wizard).

As for delivering stuff not being an economically viable business, well you're wrong because people make a living do that now, and in the past.

COMPETITION, MOTHERFUCKER.

What you said is meaningless, because the business of doing deliveries employs poor / low middle class people, unless it's some specialised service that's very fast, crosses dangerous terrain or handles dangerous / illegal items. And guess what? The Mount Delivery Service doesn't provide any of those advantages over the guy who pay 11.22$ a day to keep a horse that works all day.

The owner of a delivery company can have a high middle class / rich lifestyle because the scale involved (he'll have several delivery men, etc). You believe that it's economically viable for the owner to substitute a horse (or maybe a combo of horse/commoner rider) that can do deliveries for 6-10 hours/day for the real world equivalent of a MBA / Master whose horse will work for 2 hours/day.

This is stupid, and you should feel stupid for thinking that would work with D&D or Real World economies.