Martials Need Time: Low Level Magic

[OgreBattle]

Off the top of my head a few the scariest are a gorilla-man, a giant lizard, a mind controlling wizard and a vampire.

Yimsa's an unarmed monk type of dude that kicks Conan's ass but their fight is interrupted.

Another time Conan cuts off a wizard's head but it flies away, then another wizard shaped into an eagle grabs it and thanks Conan. q

The Frost Giants seemed more like Frost Andre the Giants than a house sized super monster.

[ishy]

there isn't a big enough floor for sub-heroic characters to exist.... fixing this problem automatically means having a bigger playspace for the Conans and Madmartigans to exist in...Meaning that I'm just going to have to get over my jihad.

Nailed it. Admittedly the 10 level playspace I allotted for it last post may be too large but probably not by much given how truly insane D&D's leveling speed is. The "two months till level 20" problem means that if we're going to keep the kills for xp model then there does need to be a good sized space allotted for starting concepts before they zoom past it on a tide of corpses.

Obviously the real solution is that we should drop kill based XP and 1-20 levelling entirely for a tier system where you only change tiers when your DM says so or by achieving some mission objective or another and the rest of the time you just get horizontally better within your tier E6 style.

I disagree. Since your solution to martial characters being unimpressive, conceptually bankrupt and never a great combatant is to turn everyone into unimpressive martial characters, you definitely want to hand out XP every session.
So that the people who don't like martial characters get the feeling they're at least progressing to having a fun character.

[Dean]

I disagree. Since your solution to martial characters being unimpressive, conceptually bankrupt and never a great combatant is to turn everyone into unimpressive martial characters, you definitely want to hand out XP every session.
So that the people who don't like martial characters get the feeling they're at least progressing to having a fun character.

They aren't unimpressive or conceptually bankrupt and my solution isn't to make anyone that way. VAH's are conceptually bankrupt and unimpressive only in comparison to things outside of the tier where they should exist. A VAH can be perfectly impressive as long as the tier you're playing at considers things like "Being able to kill 6 armed soldiers at once" and "Telling when someone is hiding information" as appropriate tools to solve the adventure. Most media that a sword and sorcery TTRPG would be attempting to emulate is made at that level. When VAH's become conceptually bankrupt is when they are inappropriately allowed to exist in a tier where problem solving tools need to be things like "Fly up to Cloud Castle and kill all the Frost Giants there quickly".

I'm not some grog who wants VAH's to live forever, I actively don't. What I do want is for them to exist at all and that means having space at the bottom of the D&D power structure to create a meaningful difference between the town guard and the greatest fighter in the kingdom. A tier of play that cares about those differences should exist. There should also be a tier of play for people who want to fly and shoot lasers but they should most definitely not be the same.

A problem you're having in even imagining that you want to "level out" of the mundane tier is that that's not what that level system is for. If everyone at the table wants to play at a level where they fly and shoot fire and divine the future then you should all just play at that tier. Start at the tier you want to play in and just play there. Play Naruto from session one and don't be peasants that grind mobs until you get the game you want. I don't want VAH's in that section of the game because by then they are uninteresting and inappropriate but I do want a fantasy game to be able to deliver the most common kind of fantasy experience in the media that drew people into the game in the first place.

Characters should be fun and interesting at all tiers of play. Magic users can be extremely cool even if their schtick isn't the ability to perform lethal and impossible feats of magic instantaneously. Read Conan d20, there's some seriously cool and atmospheric shit in there and if you went into the low magic tiers knowing what you were doing you could make a lot more of that. It is never my intention to make magic users 4E style casters that are just nonmagic characters who use bows that are skinned like firebolts and swords that are skinned like lightning hands. I want the magic users to perform interesting and atmospheric low fantasy magic from level 1 while they exist in the realm the VAH is supposed to exist in and then be able to shoot flame from their eyes and fly when the VAH has been told to retire his character concept.

[ishy]

Characters should be fun and interesting at all tiers of play. Magic users can be extremely cool even if their schtick isn't the ability to perform lethal and impossible feats of magic instantaneously.

Magic in combat time has no place here because mages at this level are expected to fight with swords and staves just like everyone else.

My issue is that fighter with swords and bows etc. is never interesting in ttrpgs.
If you want to make martial characters fun and interesting, go ahead and do that.
Forcing magic users to be martial characters does not make martial characters interesting at all.

A problem you're having in even imagining that you want to "level out" of the mundane tier is that that's not what that level system is for. If everyone at the table wants to play at a level where they fly and shoot fire and divine the future then you should all just play at that tier. Start at the tier you want to play in and just play there. Play Naruto from session one and don't be peasants that grind mobs until you get the game you want.

It does not matter what a system is for, it only matters how it is used. And while I prefer using it in the matter you described, some of my ttrpg groups, don't use it in that way at all. Because sometimes people (or just the DM) want to have that zero to hero arch.

[Schleiermacher]

My issue is that fighter with swords and bows etc. is never interesting in ttrpgs.

Citation fucking needed. You don't get to just assert that. Personally I think fighters are the one PC archetype that low-fantasy RPGs absolutely cannot do without, so this is absolutely a matter of taste.

[DSMatticus]

Fighters are boring. As in the class. That shit is terrible. You're just numbers (which are boring), and feats (which are worthless). But dude with sword/bow characters don't have to be like that. You can give martial characters activated and passive abilities that are worth writing down that make them interesting to build and interesting to play, and you can do it without them weeaboo fightan magick fluff. Though weeaboo fightan magick fluff doesn't hurt, and extends the lifespan of the concept.

[Mistborn]

you know I started a thread along similar lines ages ago. (but that one was platinum bad because it was an old school Mistborn thread) Basically what Dean want is sort of in line with what I referred to as "Expert Tier". The thing about Expert Tier is that it's the place where the Fighter can thrive despite his lack is interesting abilities, because class abilities don't matter nearly as much. In that sort of paradigm combat mage feel really out of place.

In expert tier your rely much less on your actual class abilities and much more on the basic rules. It's in some way very similar to the sort of thing the OSR guys are always wanking off about. However unlike Old School games where you have to MTP everything because you class abilities suck/don't exist and there are no other rules, you'd instead have a robust set of rules for doing thing as a medium to small sized humanoid which would be your primary means of doing stuff.

The important thing is that this doesn't have to be boring, in fact it appears to be engaging enough to some people that they are willing to put up with tyrant DMs and unreasonably shitty rules.

[...You Lost Me]

Again, it's not that the abilities aren't interesting. Sensing someone is lying is interesting, but only when it's not wholesale replaced by (for example) a spell that compels them to tell the truth. Dean is looking to do is make the gap between levels 1 and 5 a little wider in terms of Fuck You abilities without changing it (or possibly escalating it) in terms of combat power.

[ishy]

you know I started a thread along similar lines ages ago. (but that one was platinum bad because it was an old school Mistborn thread) Basically what Dean want is sort of in line with what I referred to as "Expert Tier". The thing about Expert Tier is that it's the place where the Fighter can thrive despite his lack is interesting abilities, because class abilities don't matter nearly as much. In that sort of paradigm combat mage feel really out of place.

In expert tier your rely much less on your actual class abilities and much more on the basic rules. It's in some way very similar to the sort of thing the OSR guys are always wanking off about. However unlike Old School games where you have to MTP everything because you class abilities suck/don't exist and there are no other rules, you'd instead have a robust set of rules for doing thing as a medium to small sized humanoid which would be your primary means of doing stuff.

The important thing is that this doesn't have to be boring, in fact it appears to be engaging enough to some people that they are willing to put up with tyrant DMs and unreasonably shitty rules.

While you're at least changing the discussion from removing magic users from combat is going to make martials interesting to changing the basic combat system, so martials don't have to be boring, I don't understand your position.
If you managed to create the first ttrpg ever where fighting with weapons was interesting, why would a wizard casting flaming sphere be out of place?

[Omegonthesane]

you know I started a thread along similar lines ages ago. (but that one was platinum bad because it was an old school Mistborn thread) Basically what Dean want is sort of in line with what I referred to as "Expert Tier". The thing about Expert Tier is that it's the place where the Fighter can thrive despite his lack is interesting abilities, because class abilities don't matter nearly as much. In that sort of paradigm combat mage feel really out of place.

In expert tier your rely much less on your actual class abilities and much more on the basic rules. It's in some way very similar to the sort of thing the OSR guys are always wanking off about. However unlike Old School games where you have to MTP everything because you class abilities suck/don't exist and there are no other rules, you'd instead have a robust set of rules for doing thing as a medium to small sized humanoid which would be your primary means of doing stuff.

The important thing is that this doesn't have to be boring, in fact it appears to be engaging enough to some people that they are willing to put up with tyrant DMs and unreasonably shitty rules.

While you're at least changing the discussion from removing magic users from combat is going to make martials interesting to changing the basic combat system, so martials don't have to be boring, I don't understand your position.
If you managed to create the first ttrpg ever where fighting with weapons was interesting, why would a wizard casting flaming sphere be out of place?

Flavour text. There is a demand from "non-zero of the market" for games where wizards don't use flaming spheres to win combat, or this thread would not be a thing.

[Dogbert]

(but that one was platinum bad because it was an old school Mistborn thread)

"Platinum bad"... I'll have to remember that one.

[ETortoise]

However unlike Old School games where you have to MTP everything because you class abilities suck/don't exist and there are no other rules, you'd instead have a robust set of rules for doing thing as a medium to small sized humanoid which would be your primary means of doing stuff.

This is a huge part of making this work. You would need to have interesting rules and, in some cases mini-games, for a host of different areas. Things like wilderness travel and survival would have to be fun and easily adjudicated so that they wouldn't be hand-waved. Your social system should also be kick ass since gaining friends and allies is the key to real ultimate power in a low-level world (like Earth.) If Conan-tier is going to be an area where groups can stay as long as they'd like, then there should also be rules for things like running temples, businesses, pirate ships, and feudal domains of various sizes.

[hyzmarca]

The fuck you mean, tossing out almost every fantasy icon? The fantasy icons I have in mind are characters like Naruto and Aang and the Exile and Cecil and Ryu (both the martial artist and dragon-morpher) and Archer and so-on.

I literally don't know who half of those guys are. Of those I do know, Aang and Street Fighter Ryu are definitely higher than 4th level.

The dragon morpher, I suppose, refers to the protagonists of the Breath of Fire series. There are like 5 different guys, all with the same name and same basic power set.

Ryu from Breath of Fire hits things with either a sword or a boomerrang, uses items, and turns into a variety of dragons, gaining access to stronger dragon forms as the game progresses. He's a member of the Dragon Tribe, who are all, technically, shape-shifting dragons with a default human form instead of a default dragon form.

Notably, he kills a Goddess with his powers, but that's mostly because his final form is the godlike Infinity Dragon.

Ryu from Breath of Fire 2 is about the same, except he gets some healing spells and unleashes his dragonbreath without shapeshifting.

Ryu from Breath of Fire 3 also gets godlike dragon forms, in addition to hitting things with swords, some healing spells, and a variety of martial skills.

Ryu from Breath of Fire 4 is half of a literal god, summoned from another world to help the people. He was split in two in a botched summoning ritual and the endgame is reuniting with his other half and either returning all the gods to their home worlds, leaving the mortals to their own devices, or getting really angry and destroying the world, depending on player choices.

Ryu from breath of Fire V is a normal human who is possessed by a disembodied dragon. It gives him the ability to take a humanoid half-dragon form and a massively powerful breath attack, but is also basically an alien chestburster incubating inside him and if he uses its power too much will explode out of him, fatally. And if he doesn't use its power at all it will also explode out of him, fatally, just a little later.
So Breath of Fire 5 is mostly about time management, trading minutes of your very short life to shorten boss battles. But it's also a setting where guys with guns are major antagonists.

It's notable that Ryu starts out hitting slimes with swords and ends up taking on Gods, in all cases except 5 (where there are no gods and Dragons are genetically engineered by humanity, apparently)

But in all cases except 5, Ryu basically is a God. He's just a god that starts out at level 1 and has to unlock his divine powers.


Normal dude with a sword who also happens to be a god is probably something that should be supported. That's basic Hercules shit, where you start out the demigod of being really strong and hitting things, and become the god of being really strong and hitting things as you power up.

[DSMatticus]

However unlike Old School games where you have to MTP everything because you class abilities suck/don't exist and there are no other rules, you'd instead have a robust set of rules for doing thing as a medium to small sized humanoid which would be your primary means of doing stuff.

This is a huge part of making this work. You would need to have interesting rules and, in some cases mini-games, for a host of different areas. Things like wilderness travel and survival would have to be fun and easily adjudicated so that they wouldn't be hand-waved. Your social system should also be kick ass since gaining friends and allies is the key to real ultimate power in a low-level world (like Earth.) If Conan-tier is going to be an area where groups can stay as long as they'd like, then there should also be rules for things like running temples, businesses, pirate ships, and feudal domains of various sizes.

Everyone has access to the basic rules. If some people are getting access to class-specific abilities and others aren't, that is still kind of lame. Even at level one, if your claim to fame is that you interact with the basic rules but with bigger numbers you probably need something extra. I'm not saying fighters should be wizards with swords, but they should be getting interesting fighter-specific ability selections. Of course, they should also be rogues or warlords or whatever because fighter is a small concept, but you know what I mean.

[MGuy]

However unlike Old School games where you have to MTP everything because you class abilities suck/don't exist and there are no other rules, you'd instead have a robust set of rules for doing thing as a medium to small sized humanoid which would be your primary means of doing stuff.

This is a huge part of making this work. You would need to have interesting rules and, in some cases mini-games, for a host of different areas. Things like wilderness travel and survival would have to be fun and easily adjudicated so that they wouldn't be hand-waved. Your social system should also be kick ass since gaining friends and allies is the key to real ultimate power in a low-level world (like Earth.) If Conan-tier is going to be an area where groups can stay as long as they'd like, then there should also be rules for things like running temples, businesses, pirate ships, and feudal domains of various sizes.

Everyone has access to the basic rules. If some people are getting access to class-specific abilities and others aren't, that is still kind of lame. Even at level one, if your claim to fame is that you interact with the basic rules but with bigger numbers you probably need something extra. I'm not saying fighters should be wizards with swords, but they should be getting interesting fighter-specific ability selections. Of course, they should also be rogues or warlords or whatever because fighter is a small concept, but you know what I mean.

What interesting options might you be interested in giving fighters for low level games? I'm usually of the opinion that Fighters should just get more interesting abilities rather than withdrawing abilities from other more interesting classes.

[DSMatticus]

Well, "I'm a fighter and I fight things" is not a complete concept for a player character. As a description of what a character is supposed to do in combat, it is vague and unevocative. As a description of what a character is supposed to do out of combat, it says nothing. And after you've committed to replacing the fighter with some assortment of meaningful classes like rogue/warlord/paladin/knight/ranger/whatever, it's a little more obvious what you can give to each of those characters both in and out of combat. ToB is probably a good example of what sorts of abilities and what sorts of resource mechanics low-level martials should be using, though there is plenty of room for martials on an at-will schedule or a WoF table.

[Dean]

I have a homebrew class called the Hero which besides his in combat abilities chooses a "Gift" every other level. The gifts are things like being able to detect lies, having tiny men he commands, having animal companions, tracking, bardic song powers, being able to banish demons, gambling abilities and powers, being landed gentry with a manor and income, or many others.

Granting a class the ability to perform in combat is only half the battle but it is definitely true that you can also give people out of combat abilities that are interesting and characterful without abandoning the concept of being a nonmagical badass.