To Do the Impossible ("Fixing" RIFTS (TM))

[Koumei]

I may (or may not) be running a game at some timeslot in the holidays, I dunno. I might also do something weird, instead of my D&D comfort zone. Having dug up a few of my old RIFTS (TM) books, I'm toying with running that until it crashes and burns like all RIFTS (TM) games do.

But there's so much wrong with it that I almost feel compelled to patch things here and there. Obviously you can't just convert it to d20 because that would take 100 years and also Kevin would sue everyone involved. But just putting band-aids on a bunch of stuff.

For instance:
-Skills: you roll skill+d100, trying to beat a DC of 100, I mean seriously.
-Stats: I don't care that there are so many of them, and some people are rolling 4drop1 and others are rolling 7d6+10 and others roll 1d4 and yet others roll 4d4+5. But I would like to simplify what the stats do. So I'd make it 10-11 does nothing, every +2 from there adds +1 to (thing) and every -2 from there applies -1 to (thing). With some of those things being a multiple, like IQ bonuses being +5% to skills, and PE bonus HP being +1 per level.
-Mega Damage: maybe just toning the ratio down to 10:1? Or just having tags of "Mega Damage" and "Variable", so damage (MD) vs HP (MD) is normal, damage (MD) vs HP (normal) automatically disables a character, and damage (normal) vs HP (MD) chips away one point at a time, and Variable always treats the HP and damage as the same type (for those things that just do that).

That's just the iceberg though. I'd also want to make damage and things less bullshit and over the place, try to standardise crap like the attacks per round and all...

Is it worth trying to fix anything at all with RIFTS (TM), or do you just take a big drink of single malt whiskey before the game, declare "Use any stuff from any books, go balls-out crazy!" and see what happens from there?

[OgreBattle]

MDC:SDC being 1:10 is a quick fix a lot of people use.

But fixing RIFTS is one of those quests that many have set off of and none accomplished since RPG web forums became a thing. How about you just take After Sundown and mash RIFTS characters into it? The time it takes to see what a RIFTS dragon, glittery boy, juicer, crazy, cyborg, ley line walker and so on looks like in AF is going to take less time than generating a regular RIFTS character with skill %'s all added up.

[Koumei]

Dice pool systems like AS very specifically work for human-sized things where everyone is necessarily on the same RNG. RIFTS (TM) is very much not that, because a mecha will actually beat a human in an arm wrestling contest 100% of the time.

Note that I don't even care about rebalancing everything - if it ends up with a Dragon, a Hobo, a Draconian Mind Melter, a Mecha Pilot and a Psiscape-born Psycho-Stalker Vampire, then so be it. So for me, that's spending zero time converting stuff to another system, players spending time on character sheets isn't an issue to me.

Admittedly, I'd be tempted to make all skills 50% +5% per level +5% per point of IQ bonus plus whatever OCC bonuses. Yes, that sounds an awful lot like making it a d20 roll where the bonus is divided by 5 and the DC is in fact 20.

But I'm aware you can't fix the entire game. Just "easy to implement" bandaids that still let your game be a crazytown adventure.

[OgreBattle]

That sounds like a fair 'quick fix' of the skill system, though I still have no idea what rolling Laser Communications means, or if there are thresholds of success. Somebody made a 'complete list' of skills here:
http://palladiumriftsfansite.wikia.com/ ... kills_list

RIFTS combat is also... a lot of stuff. The number of actions you can take in a round are based on a stat called "Melee attacks".

Sometimes an attack says the opponent 'loses intiative', what does that mean?
How many actions can a player take in a round? Can a Juicer just shoot his gun 5 times or can he shoot once then save his remaining actions for reactive moves or to get another round in after everyone else runs out of actions?

The rules for using shields and dodging gunfire also varies with different books.

[DrPraetor]

Kevin does sue anyone who tries to fix the game, unfortunately. Those adjustments seem sensible enough, although keep in mind one of the very few things that keeps RIFTS slightly balanced is that, unless you cheat on the dice, rolling 4D6 (avg. 14) vs 3D6 (avg. 10.5) only gives you any bonus at all less than 50% of the time! So if a 14 is better than a 10, human characters are yet-more-boned.

Game balance isn't a concern because it causes everyone to play giant robot pilots who are shape-shifting telepathic wookies. They're *supposed* to do that. The problem is when some people decide to be humans, or even human non-combatants, and then they're irrelevant to the game. My suggestion, honestly, is that the game is better balanced if you use the superhero rules in the first conversion book. You can be a wheezy-voiced botanist if you want but you get superpowers too.

You might also go to a system of points buy? It's arbitrary and unfair, but to save work, I'd suggest you adjudicate it on the fly based on what actually shows up at the table (rather than trying to decide on points costs for everything.) So if there are two robot-pilots, and one is human while the other is a shape-shifting star wookie, the human gets stats that add up to a bigger number or starts at 3rd level or something. Likewise if someone wants to play a cyborg (or mercenary with a gun) instead of a giant robot pilot, they need a bunch of bonuses to keep them relevant.

It doesn't have to be perfect, in fact it works better if everyone min-maxes obscure stuff from sourcebooks since the characters are then on an even footing. But, as written you often end up with RIFTS parties that are so assymetrical that the game implodes instantaneously.

[OgreBattle]

Considering that Koumei's already created a tier system for Dungeon Crusade where space marines simply start off higher than guardsmen, can that be mashed into RIFTS?

So a vagabond is level 1, a juicer is level 5, and so on.

[Josh_Kablack]

Is it worth trying to fix anything at all with RIFTS (TM), or do you just take a big drink of single malt whiskey before the game, declare "Use any stuff from any books, go balls-out crazy!" and see what happens from there?

I'm pretty sure this is the way to go.

[Prak]

I think the quickest fix for RIFTS is to just put all the world books on the table with a copy of Mutants and Masterminds, and tell people "you can be anything in these books, or anything else at all."

[erik]

do you just take a big drink of single malt whiskey before the game, declare "Use any stuff from any books, go balls-out crazy!" and see what happens from there?

I'm pretty sure this is the way to go.

Mostly, yeah, but it's probably worth applying a few spot fixes. Definitely not worth rewriting tons of rules.
• Decadamage is an obvious one. (but consider reducing high-SDC creatures/armor by 75-25%, otherwise Cheapwell armor suddenly becomes kinda good, and Huntercats get a bit sillier).
• Making vampires MDC creatures instead of their own stupid mechanic, and having them not care about water or cross-shaped shadows would be a big step up.

I sort of attempted this back in the 90's back when I still cared about Rifts. I'm still amazed I have the html pages from my blog where I posted this crap in the 90's. That shit has survived like transitions over 5 computers.

I went with Icosadamage (SDCx20) rather than Decadamage and made a stream of nitty changes. I sadly wasn't wise enough to just make vampires MDC and be done with it... Instead I rolled back the stupid vulnerabilities and invulnerabilities.

I did things like make different MDC weapons have different effects: bonus to hit with lasers, plasma weapons have continued burning damage on hits, impact weapons (rail guns, explosions, MDC punches) deal 1/5 SDC to people in body armor and have knockdown chances. I increased damage on big honkin robot weapons since I was annoyed they were equally damaging as the tiny handheld rifles (and in later books, pistols). Might as well strap 6 rifles to the arm of a robot instead otherwise.

[Judging__Eagle]

Fixing Rifts is honestly... more likely than fixing the habit people have of the breaking their quote tags immediately after posting broken tags.

Considering that Koumei's already created a tier system for Dungeon Crusade where space marines simply start off higher than guardsmen, can that be mashed into RIFTS?

So a vagabond is level 1, a juicer is level 5, and so on.

Applying some sort of "power tiers" for Rifts characters seems like it would go towards creating something cohesive in terms of "that is this powerful" within the game.

'Weaker' characters simply being given tiers of power in in Charles Atlas, Jack of Blades or Faustian Pact, style powers; or simply being higher level than more 'powerful' characters; are also good ideas that have been mentioned.

... I don't know about other forum members, but calling to mind Dungeon Crusade, I find it a fitting for Koumei to again try fix a crazy complicated system/game's problems out of spite.

Here's an interesting 'balance' question: multiclassing? Is it actually doable in Rifts? How?

I know that in some cases a character can 'change' into a new OCC (and indeed some OCC's cannot be taken as a starting class)... but why would they do so? How is it done? The rules have always been less than clear.

If "multiclassing" isn't overly complicated; non-super powered characters could be 'granted' levels in "mundane powerup" classes that grant abilities; but don't skew hit points; saves; skills; etc.; unless the "mundane powerup" class is meant to give those sorts of things.

[OgreBattle]

You're better off throwing out the 'nobody knows what it does' skill system and replacing it with After Sundown's at http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=52316

So your categories are...

Physical
-Athletics
-Combat
-Drive/Pilot
-Larceny
-Perception
-Stealth
-Survival

Social Skills
-Animal Ken
-Bureaucracy
-Empathy
-Expression
-Intimidation
-Persuasion
-Tactics

Technical Skills
-Artisan
-Electronics
-Medicine
-Operations
-Research
-Rigging/Sabotage

Then get it running with some d20 "beat a DC" mechanic. Instead of a fiddly skillpoint system you have a proficiency system:

-You add 1/2level as a bonus to skills, round down (so a level 3 guy gets +1 to skills)
-Being unproficient gives you a -4 penalty
-Proficient skills negate the penalty so you are at +0
-Double proficiency in a skill gives you a +3 bonus
-Subset specialization in a skill gives you an additional +2 bonus with that specialization

Combat skill specializations also let you pick up fighting styles:
-Assassin: You deal x2 damage on a natural 20 and against flanked/unaware/flat footed opponents
-Martial Artist: Once per initiative pass when you strike in melee combat you can make an additional melee strike
-Grappler: you gain auto bodyflip/throw, use your strike bonus but at -4 penalty
-Commando: you gain auto dodge, uses your dodge bonus but at -4 penalty

The 1/2level bonus for combat skill determines...
-Strike
-Dodge
-Parry
-Roll with impact
-Initiative
-Damage bonus


Then you have Background divided into
-Academic
-Social
-Occult (let's call it "Classified")

So a Ley Line walker from the West Coast USA and one from England can have similar powers but pretty different backgrounds.

-----
Melee Attacks Per Round is a kind of confusing term, so let's just call them "Actions".
Everyone has two actions. Being a juicer or magic can increase that.

Everyone can use up to 2 actions per turn. If they have more than 2 actions then they get another 'initiative pass' to use them after everyone else has acted. These passes continue until all actions are eaten up.

as for multiclassing, that should be thrown out the door.

[Koumei]

Oh, to answer the bit about losing Initiative, it means you go last. The way combat works in RIFTS (TM) is as such:
Dude 1 has 5 attacks per round and rolled a 15 for Initiative
Dude 2 has 5 attacks per round and rolled a 10 for Initiative
Dude 1 attacks Dude 2
Dude 2 attacks Dude 1
Dude 1 attacks Dude 2
Dude 2 KUNG FU THROWS Dude 1
(Initiative is now Dude 2 at 10, then Dude 1 at No)
Dude 2 attacks Dude 1
Dude 1 has lost an action from being thrown
Dude 2 attacks Dude 1
Dude 1 attacks Dude 2
Dude 2 attacks Dude 1
Dude 1 attacks Dude 2

This can make throws (and spells with "loses initiative" as a side-effect) really good, especially if you outnumber your opponent.

'Weaker' characters simply being given tiers of power in in Charles Atlas, Jack of Blades or Faustian Pact, style powers; or simply being higher level than more 'powerful' characters; are also good ideas that have been mentioned.

Yeah, just saying "grab some shit from Heroes Unlimited or also be a Nightbane or something" could work.

... I don't know about other forum members, but calling to mind Dungeon Crusade, I find it a fitting for Koumei to again try fix a crazy complicated system/game's problems out of spite.

I could never truly fix this, but spite is a magical thing.

Here's an interesting 'balance' question: multiclassing? Is it actually doable in Rifts? How?

It's doable in that you can permanently change classes in a way that sounds like a 2Ed D&D thing. Given Palladium Fantasy (TM) is basically "Some dude's house rules for 2Ed D&D" that is not surprising.

After you've gained at least one level in your starting class, you can declare that you are "training" towards multiclassing. Your next level is Level 1 in your new class, and the XP to reach it is the same as the XP to reach Level 2 in that class. I assume the rules specifically state you can only multiclass into an OCC. Actually no, the rules definitely should say that (with a grey area on PCCs), but knowing these guys, there's probably nothing stopping you from multiclassing into a Hatchling Dragon.

Now, all your old stuff freezes in place, but can be used. It just doesn't advance. If both classes share a skill or some other feature that advances per level, then once they are the same level, that continues to advance - basically, a Scientist 4 Scholar 3 doesn't have 7 levels worth of +5 per level on a shared skill, they still have a 4th level rating for it.

Then it's suggested individual MCs declare what kind of multiclassing is or is not okay - generally, going from one Man of Arms to another, or one Skill Person to another, or one Magic User to another is okay, but going from a Psychic to a Magic User probably isn't.

You totally gain SDC/HP/MDC/PPE/ISP each level based on the new class, and it doesn't say that doesn't include the big chunk you get at level 1, so if you multiclass between caster classes like a mofo (probably swapping between "learn from scrolls" classes, just unlocking specialist schools), there's nothing (but your MC) stopping you from gaining 100-200 PPE per new class instead of just 20 per level up.

[Neurosis]

This is bizarre and a little off topic but I like to basically run it as it is and just try to enjoy the awfulness. Savor the flavor, so to speak.

[TheFlatline]

Is it worth trying to fix anything at all with RIFTS (TM), or do you just take a big drink of single malt whiskey before the game, declare "Use any stuff from any books, go balls-out crazy!" and see what happens from there?

I'm pretty sure this is the way to go.

There is one question to ask before Rifts games start.

Are we playing "Human" or "not-human"?

If we're playing "human", that's an SDC game and I might roll a TMNT character or something like that. Odds are I'll be actually interacting inside the Rifts game.

Not-Human means that the demon-hunter atlantian with 12 tattoos that can fly in space and punch SDF-1 and crack it in half with one blow is on the table.

[erik]

knowing these guys, there's probably nothing stopping you from multiclassing into a Hatchling Dragon.

I'm pretty sure there is. Back when I ran Rifts I was a hardliner DM and no adherent to the rule of cool and I'd have probably shut down most anything borderline. Nowadays, I think I would be strangely comfortable with this at least to some extent.

"You just tapped your dragon ancestry from a trist your grandma had with a shapechanged dragon. Grats."
"You were bitten by a radioactive dragon. Rock on."
"Well, now we know what that scroll did"
"That wasn't lemonade. That was our sample of Splugorth dragon mutagen!"
"What guys? Sir Bearington was always a dragon, just using shapechange and disguises."

God knows there's stupider stuff in Rifts. More stupid in every way imaginable.

[infected slut princess]

Rifts is the only rpg I ever played that resulted in me punching a fat guy in real life. Rifts has problems.

[erik]

Yeahhhh. Rifts made me do it officer.

Unless the fat man was Kevin Siembieda then I think that problem might not be attributable to Rifts.

[Koumei]

RIFTS (TM) is bad, but I think the problem there is with isp, yes.

[TiaC]

Especially since that sentence implies that other RPGs have made him punch thin guys.

[hogarth]

I think the quickest fix for RIFTS is to just put all the world books on the table with a copy of Mutants and Masterminds, and tell people "you can be anything in these books, or anything else at all."

Yeah, I'm not sure what the appeal is to the RIFTS rules (as opposed to the setting) when there are a dozen superhero games out there that can do the same thing.

[Prak]

I think it's mostly that it's still somewhat bizarre to people to say "we're using this setting, but these rules"

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I think the quickest fix for RIFTS is to just put all the world books on the table with a copy of Mutants and Masterminds, and tell people "you can be anything in these books, or anything else at all."

This. Convert BS like a character having 5 skills in Communications into a couple of features/advantages. With the sheer number of skills to reduce, and the degree of illiteracy in the setting's U.S., I could see an argument on splitting the Technology skill into 2.

A Glitter Boy would fit pretty well as an underpointed PL10-11 that only meets its caps on damage, while a Rogue Scholar/Operator could be an overpointed PL6-8. A tattoo-themed DAE with the Fades extra could cover Atlanteans spending P.P.E..

[talozin]

Bottle of whiskey. If you try to fix all the stupid and broken and stupidly broken and brokenly stupid things in the game, you'll spend a lot of time doing it, you still probably won't succeed, and you'll be much more likely to get frustrated with it. Because you tried to fix it, and if your efforts didn't succeed, that must at some level reflect on you, right?

On the other hand, if you treat it as an exercise in ironic retro gaming, you can embrace the stupid and laugh at the ridiculous excesses people come up with without feeling the slightest tinge of self-consciousness, because you're essentially mocking Kevin Siembieda the whole time. And mocking Kevin Siembieda > feeling bad that you couldn't keep the Titanic afloat.