Multiclass Saving Throws

[fbmf]

I proposed this idea when my group started a new campaign last February-ish, and it seems to have worked okay.

In order to keep multiclass saving throws from going into Crazyland ™, why not only allow a good save to give you a “+2” once. Each time you get a new class that would give you a save that you already have a good save in from a previous class, only add a “+1”.

We’ve tried it, and it works as intended, but I am wondering if there are any as-yet-unseen consequences that are going to bring my campaign crashing down. We don’t play the new campaign very often, so we’re only 4th level.

Am I missing anything? Is anyone else doing this?

Game On,
fbmf

[Username17]

So now the difference between a massively multiclassed character (no more than 2 levels of any class and all good saves) and a multiclassed character (no more than 2 levels of any class and all bad saves) is +21 vs. +0 instead of +30 vs. +0.

So um... you've removed 9 points of the discrepency. But since the maximum difference between saves before a possible challenge to one character is an immunity or automatic kill for another character is only +/- 19 - you haven't actually solved the problem.

So in short, you've made things better, but only to the extent that 3.5 Simulacrum made it better (in that you now have to be higher level before it becomes an infinite loop). It's still a problem, so you didn't actually solve anything.

-Username17

[fbmf]

Didn't you have a similar system, only you got to add a "+2" every now and again?

Game On,
fbmf

[Boulie_98]

IIRC, fractional saving throw increases went like this: you get a +1/2 for each level with that save as a good save, and a +1/3 for each level with that save as a bad save. Then you add a one time +2 bonus if you have at least one level in a class with said save as a good save. Finally, round down. At the end of the road, at best you'll have a +12 and at worst a +6. Lo and behold, just like it would be if you were single-classed!

It is advised to add fractional BAB progression too since multiclassing is actually hurt by the normal BAB progression. Fractional BAB progression means you get a +1, a +3/4 or a +1/2 bonus to your BAB for each level in class which has BAB with a good, medium or bad progression respectively. Again, end with rounding down. A Wiz1/Rog1 for instance will now have a BAB of +1 instead of +0 at second level.

[fbmf]

Thanks, Boulie.

Game On,
fbmf

[Username17]

I've experimented with a variety of different fractional increases. The big problems with the fractional increase that Boulie is talking about (the one where it's identical to the proposed basic D&D save progression if you take all classes with a single progression) are:

It comes up with really ugly numbers. 1/3s and 1/2s don't add together in any meaningful way. 1/3 + 1/2 is 5/6, 2/3 + 1/2 is 7/6. As such, there is no difference between 2/3 and 1/2, and no difference between 1/3 and zero. As such, it can be simplified as bad progressions giving you a +0, +1/2, +1/2 (repeat).

The total numbers are really low. Especially if you look at monsters in the Epic book, or creatures from the Fiend Folio, the save DCs are by and large based on the idea that people are multiclassing and jacking up their saves. If everyone's save bonus is only +10 or so by the time they get to 20th level, those DC 34 monster abilities are going to TPK your whole damn party. So while it sounds like it wouldn't require a redesign of the system, actually it does.

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I've tried a system which attempted to simulate a base-line of multiclassing, granting 2/5 and 3/5 for good and bad saves, with punctuated bonuses along the way at set levels. This produced good numbers, but was extremely complex, and people just couldn't handle it.

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I've tried a system by which good saves grant .75 per level and bad saves grant .5 - which grants good numbers in the long run, but people were again finding difficulties with the whole 1/4 concept. And indeed, it's kind of frustrating at low levels (there's no difference at all between taking good levels and bad levels until level three).

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But lately, I've been thinking that half a point for a bad save and a whole point for a crap save is fine. Giving anything less makes people with crap saves automatically die at high levels (people get 1/2 a DC per hit die regardless of what save type they are using, and monsters usually have more hit dice and dedicated spellcasters always tweak out their DC modifiers as high as possible). Anything less for a Good save and you can't tell the difference at first level - it all rounds down anyway, neh (and wouldn't be any different if it all rounded up)?

People can understand having half a point, and the difference between +20 and +10 at 20th level is acceptable. No matter what you do, you're going to have to rescale save DCs, and no matter what you're going to have to make fractions add. The challenge is to make the intermediate fractions easy to add, and easy to remember.

Maintaining mathematical identicallity to the original +12/+6 save bonuses concept is not important, because the original save bonuses weren't balanced.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

I've used a system very similar to that and it worked fine in my campaign. About the only thing that may still be broke is people taking lots of monk PrCs, because they grant a +1 to all levels, but even then the advantage probably isn't all that great, so it's not much to worry about.

[User3]

No need to be overly complex about the whole thing. IMC there are two tables detailing saving throw progressions: Low and High.

For each save, total up how many levels are Low and hoe many levels are High, find the appropriate numbers on each table, and add them.

I do the same thing with BAB but using three tables.

The system dosen't mesh as perfectly as a fractional system (a level of Low BAB + a level of Medium is less then two of Low...), but I think it does a better job then the official system and ends uup being easier then the official or fractional for heavily multiclassed characters.

I think this is how saving throws were intended to work. It was just some sort of random stupidity that caused them to print a seperate table for each class rather than putting them all on one table near "Level dependant benefits."

[Username17]

I think this is how saving throws were intended to work.

Maybe. But people having a +6 bonus to a save at 20th level demonstrably does not work. They just die all the time. A DC 30 is fairly commonplace out of CR 20 threats, and having a base bonus of only +6 means that you might as well not have a bonus at all - your entire save bonus doesn't actually cause you to make a save on any die roll.

The Save DCs have been written to be nearly high enough to compete with the actual save bonuses that multiclassed characters really get. If you nerf the save bonuses down, you'll have to compensate in other areas. I don't think that's less work than putting it into a fractional system.

-Username17