New model for lycanthropes

[User3]

Rather than letting PCs jump in ECL and play a level catch-up game with the party, why can't we just rule that Lycanthrope PCs are NPCs when in werebeast form until a certain kind of magic item is put onto them.

This item will suppress involuntary changes and allow expression of the levels of the werebeast class that the character has taken. If his item is taken off, he turns NPC when he goes full beast form(due to an involuntary change).

The Change Shape skill will be removed and replaced with a Will save to avoid or initiate changing.

Once he's paid off his werebeast form levels, he can turn into beast form involuntarily and not go NPC. Also, once he's taken levels in the were-X class it can't be removed by normal spells.

Several comic and movie werewolves worked this way where being a werewolve was a mixed curse/blessing, so I wonder if it works mechanically.

[Username17]

What?

If we accept the paradigm that being a lycanthrope is worth levels, then your system just came up with a fvcking magic item whose benefit is "you gain extra character levels".
:jawdrop:
Excuse me? Baking powder? A magic item that grants character levels? Are you high?

Not a chance in hell is that mechanically balanced, and it never will be.
---

If you want to fix Lycanthropy and have it "work", then you're going to have to make being a Lycanthrope inherently zero sum or disadvantageous. That is, you turn into a monster and you do not even think about gaining character levels out of the deal.

So hit dice shouldn't move around. At all. If you are a 4th level dude and you become a werewolf, you should not be a 6 hit die dude - you should have a rage effect that you do not fully control. If you are a 1st level character you should just plain die and be replaced by a werewolf monster. If you have more hit dice than the monster, you have no bussiness gaining hit dice. If you have less hit dice than the monster, there shouldn't be any "you" at all.

Stat Modifiers and the uncontrollable desire to eat the party horses ends up with a pretty notable negative overall. That's a curse, and people will want to get rid of it.

Then having the curse could be a prereq for a prestige class "cursed guy" who gets to be totally bad ass and eventually harness wolf powers whenever he wants.

But no monkeying around with hit dice going up is ever going to be balanced.

-Username17

[User3]

Sorry, either I wrote that badly or you are confused.

I will clarify.

You cannot change into a werebeast without becoming an NPC unless you take class levels in were-beast, and then you can voluntrarily turn into your class form, but you will involuntarily turn into an NPC form based on all the triggers in the MM.

The NPC form will be a werewolf with an ECL equal to your level. Weak people turn into weak werewolves(min 6 HD, I think) and powerful people turn into powerful werewolves. It will be like using an entirely different character.

The magic item supresses involuntarly changes only. Its really not necessary, but it seems to be a prereq to start taking the class and being in a party. It works to allow the partial transformations that are you using as you work to master the new form

When your were-X levels that you have been gaining equal the ECL of the werewolf, you can take off the amulet because you won't change involuntarily and become an NPC anymore.

(Of course, the wereclasses all need to be rewritten to make them grant better HD and BAB at every level, but that is one of many changes they need to be playable.)

[Username17]

werebeasts severely don't need to be multiple hit die progressions. You shouldn't ever have to take 3 levels of anything to still be "very nearly a werewolf". That's crap.

Werewolves can jolly well have a series of bonuses and penalties which roughly balance out if you meet the minimum hit dice requirement. A Prestige Class could be layered on top of that to give you more cool lycanthropy abilities and eliminate some of the penalties while giving you hit dice and BAB and stuff.

Druids get the ability to turn into a polar bear with no loss of control whenever they want to as a throw away at level 8. I see no particular reason why any other character should ever have to invest actual character levels to be involuntarily transformed into a wolf.

-Username17

[Crissa]

What's wrong with a class 'I gain monsterous abilities' which just so happens to also give you the abilities of the monter that runs around in your underpants without your control?

-Crissa

[User3]

Citing the druid as an example for level appropriate power is not really valid. We all know that druids are terribly broken, but that can be said of Polymorph as well.

Part of the "becoming a werewolf" legend is that becoming one is a growth in power. It should be worth a few levels of abilities at least. Just the fact that you get a DR that no enemy be able to surpass is going to be a pretty good ability for characters of any level. Its like a free Stoneskin that never runs out, and even magic items don't grant that.

Honestly, what penaties could you give someone to balance an ECL +0 werewolf?

[Username17]

Honestly, what penaties could you give someone to balance an ECL +0 werewolf?

The inability to wear armor. This doesn't mean shit in the modern world, but in D&D this kicks fighters right in the nuts.

The inabilty to use weapons. Your claws would have to be pretty frickin awesome before you'd be anything but sad over your loss of your magic sword.

The inability to cast spells. You're raging, no spells for you.

That right there can afford the werewolf some pretty intense offensive and defensive abilities without seriously compromising their over-all effectiveness, even as a barbarian. It is difficult for me to imagine a Wizard being anything other than extremely upset over this transformation, no matter how much extra strength they get out of the deal. And when you chalk up the fact that you have to make Will saves to work well with others - it's starting to look like a serious curse even at +8 strength (which is more than I see it granting).

And while this could be potentially abused as a Divine Caster who specializes in buffs - Druids are already doing that anyway and don't need to make Will power saves to keep from eating their friends at the end of the battles.

-Username17

[User3]

I could see that really working out for rogues. They already wear light armor, don't cast spells, and get most of their damage output from sneak attack.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I believe that SKR put up variant druid rules on his website for druids who turn into hybrid animal forms instead of actual animals or somesuch similar. The point was to make a "Lycanthrope Druid". I've been meaning to expand those rules into something workable for a while now. Of course, this has nothing to K's idea, since you don't have to be an afflicted werewolf to take this class. But then again, I wasn't going to have lycanthropes in this world at all, they'd be a legend inspired by these totem-druids.

I think that if you want to do the whole Gold Digger/Werewolf:The Apocalypse thing where werewolves are races of neo-primitive AmerInd types who can turn into animals then you should get rid of inflicted lycanthropy alltogether. If you want a world where lycanthropy makes you lose control, turn into wolfman and kill people, then it should be a curse that can never be controlled and must be cured. Mixing them will simply result in a Knights of the Dinner Table scenario where people taunt the weretiger so they can gain Real Ultimate Power.

-Desdan

[User3]

I think that having to switch out your character's abilities for werebeast levels, as per the system I'm building, is not going to be the True Path to Real Power.

Actually, I envision it to be a lot like multiclassing. The 1-3 levels that you are going to be behind in your core class from taking the "master the wereform" levels is going to set you behind a bit behind the power curve.

[Username17]

I think that having to switch out your character's abilities for werebeast levels, as per the system I'm building, is not going to be the True Path to Real Power.

It's certainly going to be the path to true logistical nightmares. You can't even successfully level a character at the best of times - how do you expect people to reduce and increase levels on the fly in the middle of a game every time they change shape?

The whole idea is preposterous. Trading levels ever is absurd. People have a hard time spending their points when everything is nicely linear and things only go up and only between game sessions. Asking people to subtract and add level quantities in the middle of the game is like asking them to do calculus - most people just can't do it.

I mean, I play with people who can't figure out what their to-hit bonuses are when bards turn on their music, and that's just addition. As soon as you throw subtraction into the midst, most theatre majors do their impression of a dead fish. And what you are suggestion is variable subtraction - which is advanced algebra and much too complicated for the average player of the game to perform.

I heartily laugh at your claim to be able to do it, for example. So far, you haven't gotten the numbers right on any of your proposed examples on any similar scheme, so I submit that it is an entirely impractical goal to attempt to get the average D&D player to be capable of performing such tasks on the fly at or near the 100% success rate you would need to make it a workable game mechanic.

Trading levels in wizard for levels of werewolf might sound cool, it might even be balanced (although I doubt it), but it's not practical, so it is not going to work.

-Username17

[User3]

I can't do leveling well bacause you use homebrew rules for the number of skills and in-class for classes, saving throws, and character leveling. Its tough to turn off my "and this is how DnD is played" and remember your rules which may have been written down but I never printed out and after a year of play have never seemed natural to me.

But, I propose not doing any subtraction at all.

The werebeast player will simply turn to the MM desription of Werebeast(the one I have to write), and start playing that character. There will be no picking of skills, feats, or any other damn thing. You won't even roll new HP.

When they turn back and forth, the only thing that transfers is current damage(which I'll admit is a different mechanic from people using "current hp") and status effects.

The werebeast, unlike many other monsters, really doesn't have any excuse to be the original character in any way, other than a rough "we share the same goals/player." The level of werebeast you turn into is lower level than your original class, as befits a multi-class, but by combining it with my idea on magic items, the werebeast can be turned into a class with level appropriate abilities and build-in class abilities in place of magic items.

[Username17]

The werebeast player will simply turn to the MM desription of Werebeast(the one I have to write), and start playing that character. There will be no picking of skills, feats, or any other damn thing. You won't even roll new HP.

But you will, by necessity, transfer in your old conditional modifiers, equipment, spells, ability damage, fear level, bardic music, etc.

So you basically create a new character in the middle of combat who is running under the effects of everything you were running under the effects of.

That's too complicated. If you can't modify your current attack bonus by simply adding or subtracting a single static number from whatever it already is you end up having to do the whole thing over from scratch - and that takes too fvcking long.

-Username17

[User3]

If you can't play your character and know what situational modifiers(spells, status conditions, ect) you have added to your base character at any one time, then you shouldn't be playing a tabletop game.

90% of equipment also won't transfer. The wereform will have compensating bonuses in the base form, so that leaves just a few other bonuses for a standard character.

Honestly, if you can't do that, you can't play DnD.