Recently I came to the conclusion that I dont have time nor interest in dealing with your average rpg system with hundreds of pages of rules and tables and exceptions etc. Not only my early thirties everyday life makes it difficult to learn and play these kind of games effectively, but my particular preferences have been pending more and more to the exploration of fictional situations and settings rather than dealing with numbers and mathematical mini-games like your typical char creation and combat. (because of this, my introduction to games like Lady Blackbird, Marvel Heroic and Apocalypse World in the last years felt extremely liberating, but this is not the point of the thread).
Yesterday me and my brother were discussing three possible games to play – Eclipse Phase, Tenra Bansho and Star Wars: Edge of the Empire – two of which Ive already played but never GMed and thus was not proficient on the rules. First we did a little brainstorming where we discussed each game premise and setting, and then we pinpointed the one we got more excited (Eclipse Phase) and began to discussing possible exciting situations we would like to see ourselves on. After half an hour of this talk where we got SUPER EXCITED, then came the crucial phrase “Ok, how do we play It ?” and then, as we started flipping the pages for character creation and saw all out excitement disintegrate until we started talking other things and… puff. Another half an hour later we were already talking videogames and politics and football. (we even considered some form of rock-paper-scissor resolution but gave up halfway).
How I wanted the course of our conversation to go was: “Ok, how do we play it ?”, followed by a the book helping us to contextualize super-fast an exciting situation and characters and allow us to play in no more than 5 minutes. This way, we could tap on the things we were discussing a moment ago instead of halting all that excitement and getting down to an hour and a half of a mathematical minutia of “character creation” that not necessarily relate to what we wanted out of the game. In other words, I wanted the response for that “Ok, how do we play it?” to be something like “you tell me! Describe your char and an exciting situation right now!” and then we would got something like “Ok, Im on a dark corridor of a seemingly derelict spaceship… I don’t know what happened and Im feeling sick from the cryosleep I woke up from…” And then we would go on tapping the exact things that got us excited during the brainstorm. Perhaps later, when we get a break, we could define the characters a bit more, adding things like what are good at/bad at or personality traits or something.. but these would come tied to the situations that arose, not as a hard/tackled-on process that do not necessarily relate to what we were talking about moments ago.
I think my point with this thread is this: For me, an early thirties adult, to continue to play RPGs like I did in my teens, I need game “systems” that allow me to start playing in 15 minutes max. I understand there are games out there that attend more or less this premise (like the ones cited above), but the question really is: instead of being an exception (as I suspect they are) shouldn’t these kind of games be the norm by now ? I mean, the population of tabletop roleplayers seems to be formed more of adults than of teenagers (at least that’s what I see in my social circles). Shouldn’t games have adapted by now to this population traits, which includes understanding that they got jobs and families and don’t have the time anymore to waste on long processes that are at most peripheral ? In other words: shouldnt roleplaying games by this time be more about roleplaying than math ? Afterall, this hobby isn’t called “Math-tactics games” but “Role-playing games”.
Right ?
Obs: and before someone asks, I actually like “gamey” aspects like the synergy the arises from powers and classes and tactical options etc. Im all for this kind of thing. I just think this aspect of gaming should be subordinate to the fiction/roleplaying/story/conversation/”active interaction with the shared imagined space” and not take precedence over it. And when I see a system that gives me 1000 (one thousand ! ) points to distribute between a myriad of stats with a different cost each and later introduces me to a pages-long table of different gear each with a discrete cost in a discrete currency etc forcing me to waste at least an hour before the game even begins….. I cant stop but think something went very wrong in the evolution path this hobby undertook.
Im sick of systems
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Im sick of systems
Last edited by silva on Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
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mlangsdorf
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Naturally,most of the gamers in your social circle are adults. Just like all the gamers in my social circle when I was in high school were teenagers.
Your social circle is age appropriate. Almost always.
However, that doesn't tell you anything about the people playing RPGs outside of your social circle.
Your social circle is age appropriate. Almost always.
However, that doesn't tell you anything about the people playing RPGs outside of your social circle.
But, Dorf, isn't the adult public the main public of tabletop role playing games ?
Anyway, perhaps I'm just frustrated that I couldn't play a game I was terribly interested to because the system was such a huge entry barrier that we ended up not interested to climb. And sadly this has became a common occurrence lately for me.
Anyway, perhaps I'm just frustrated that I couldn't play a game I was terribly interested to because the system was such a huge entry barrier that we ended up not interested to climb. And sadly this has became a common occurrence lately for me.
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
While this is a thinly veiled bearworld thread, I feel the need to point out that I, an adult in my 30s, enjoy systems and character creation.
There are two big reasons I like systems, the first is it exteneds gameplay beyond game night. I know my time is at a premium, but it is easy to find an hour or two to crank out a new PC over the course of a week, and even better, when in traffic or waiting in line I have a topic to mull over. When it comes to actually playing RPGs half of the time is BSing with my friends, and the other half is rolling dice. Some weeks are heavier on games some are heavier on socialization. This is good, but an in depth system allows me to get my game fix during down time on socialization weeks.
Also I don't want to play pretend. I want to be able to fail. I want my triumphs to feel as though I earned them, not as though they were handed to me. Conversely I don't want to feel like I have been cheated when I fail. I don't mind losing hard, but I hate being told "you lose." (I think this is why so many people are against DMs rolling saves and spots). If I wanted to join a collaborative fiction group, I would do that. I want to play a game, i want there to be a story, but if I don't roll dice, I'm unhappy.
There are two big reasons I like systems, the first is it exteneds gameplay beyond game night. I know my time is at a premium, but it is easy to find an hour or two to crank out a new PC over the course of a week, and even better, when in traffic or waiting in line I have a topic to mull over. When it comes to actually playing RPGs half of the time is BSing with my friends, and the other half is rolling dice. Some weeks are heavier on games some are heavier on socialization. This is good, but an in depth system allows me to get my game fix during down time on socialization weeks.
Also I don't want to play pretend. I want to be able to fail. I want my triumphs to feel as though I earned them, not as though they were handed to me. Conversely I don't want to feel like I have been cheated when I fail. I don't mind losing hard, but I hate being told "you lose." (I think this is why so many people are against DMs rolling saves and spots). If I wanted to join a collaborative fiction group, I would do that. I want to play a game, i want there to be a story, but if I don't roll dice, I'm unhappy.
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violence in the media
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Honest question Silva: why do you buy and play games at all? Make Believe costs nothing and supplies everything you say you want, so why are you bothered that many other games are written for people that want more than nothing?
You can play Make Believe out of any book(s) that strikes your fancy. John Carter and Barbarella vs. Plan 9 on the Planet of the Apes. Go nuts.
You can play Make Believe out of any book(s) that strikes your fancy. John Carter and Barbarella vs. Plan 9 on the Planet of the Apes. Go nuts.
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spongeknight
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Quoted for truth.violence in the media wrote:Honest question Silva: why do you buy and play games at all? Make Believe costs nothing and supplies everything you say you want, so why are you bothered that many other games are written for people that want more than nothing?
You can play Make Believe out of any book(s) that strikes your fancy. John Carter and Barbarella vs. Plan 9 on the Planet of the Apes. Go nuts.
Silva, if you were seriously considering rock-paper-scissors as your sole resolution mechanic for a game, perhaps you're simply more interested in improv than you are RPGs. Seriously, there's nothing wrong with shared narrative games. Go play Munchausen and see if you like that, because it is literally just a vehicle to tell a cooperative story with basically no mechanics at all.
In the meantime, stop shitting up our forum with all your "rules are bad!" bullshit. We like rules here, you don't like rules, there are games for each of us and you don't like our games, so please just fuck off and find a friendly Munchausen forum where they will welcome your ideas with open arms.
A Man In Black wrote:I do not want people to feel like they can never get rid of their Guisarme or else they can't cast Evard's Swarm Of Black Tentacleguisarmes.
Voss wrote:Which is pretty classic WW bullshit, really. Suck people in and then announce that everyone was a dogfucker all along.
Here silva, full RPG eight pages, have fun:
http://www.btrc.net/eabanywhere
http://www.btrc.net/eabanywhere
Hey, you know what it's called people have different interests, I'm younger than you and I know that different people like different levels of rule density. So this retarded notion that it is either “Math-tactics games” (you view as bad) or “Role-playing games" (you view as good)shows that really the problem is you since you can't see that those two things are not a dichotomy.In other words: shouldnt roleplaying games by this time be more about roleplaying than math ? Afterall, this hobby isn’t called “Math-tactics games” but “Role-playing games”.
Last edited by Leress on Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
]I want him to tongue-punch my box.
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
try one page:Leress wrote:Here silva, full RPG eight pages, have fun:
http://www.onepagerpg.com/downloads.html
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?699 ... e-page-RPG (here they talk about all kinds of 1-pagers)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/326 ... s_1979.pdf (technically 3 pages)
just bearly enough to call itself a game.
Last edited by ACOS on Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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OgreBattle
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violence in the media wrote:Honest question Silva: why do you buy and play games at all? Make Believe costs nothing and supplies everything you say you want, so why are you bothered that many other games are written for people that want more than nothing?
Because this is the true face behind every Silva thread on the Den:spongeknight wrote: In the meantime, stop shitting up our forum with all your "rules are bad!" bullshit. We like rules here, you don't like rules, there are games for each of us and you don't like our games, so please just fuck off and find a friendly Munchausen forum where they will welcome your ideas with open arms.
If Silva wanted to have friendly discussions on RPG's like ___ World then he would be posting on those forums you mentioned, but he doesn't because that's not what he's looking for. Silva is a masochist for verbal humiliation and wanders back to TGD whenever he wants a hot load of rage dumped on his face as he makes this expression: ":drool:"Silva wrote:
L-let's talk about '___ World'~
A lot of folks here on TGD like it 'cause you're free to be more 'sadistic' in replying to others than on most other forums, with the ultimate goal being facilitating honest discussion of game mechanics without being burdened by passive aggressiveness.
Silva is here for the sadism directed at him and nothing else. Whether its starting a new thread with an antagonizing premise, or interjecting himself to an existing thread with an antagonizing reply, everyone immediately drops what they were discussing and proceeds to circle up and gang quote-reply him:
and thus his desires are fulfilledEveryone else on TGD replying to Silva wrote:
If you really think he's shitting up the Den, then just hit 'ignore', as otherwise you are just a participant in his perverse desires.
...or maybe that is the ultimate structure of the Den, with the banning of one Shad comes the rise of another to take their place, the pariah that gives unity to an otherwise argumentative group.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Stubbazubba
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PSA: He posted the same thread on RPG.net. Not sure what he intends to get out of it. Even RPG.net told him it was probably just a personal preference, not a problem with the hobby.
Edit: That being said, I think the problem might be how RPG products are generally presented as reference tools, not as true introductory materials. The learning curve is very high because you are given everything to learn at once. Even maintaining high levels of overall complexity, you could make the game easier to learn by introducing concepts one at a time into semi-scripted play. I admit that's not done best by text on a page or a screen, but it could still be approximated, and let you start playing while you learn, instead of requiring you to learn everything before you begin playing.
Edit: That being said, I think the problem might be how RPG products are generally presented as reference tools, not as true introductory materials. The learning curve is very high because you are given everything to learn at once. Even maintaining high levels of overall complexity, you could make the game easier to learn by introducing concepts one at a time into semi-scripted play. I admit that's not done best by text on a page or a screen, but it could still be approximated, and let you start playing while you learn, instead of requiring you to learn everything before you begin playing.
Last edited by Stubbazubba on Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Matters of Critical Insignificance
Matters of Critical Insignificance
Isn't that the purpose of fast play rules, and/or introductory adventures? Now there really hasn't been any good ones so I definitely see the problem there.Stubbazubba wrote:PSA: He posted the same thread on RPG.net. Not sure what he intends to get out of it. Even RPG.net told him it was probably just a personal preference, not a problem with the hobby.
Edit: That being said, I think the problem might be how RPG products are generally presented as reference tools, not as true introductory materials. The learning curve is very high because you are given everything to learn at once. Even maintaining high levels of overall complexity, you could make the game easier to learn by introducing concepts one at a time into semi-scripted play. I admit that's not done best by text on a page or a screen, but it could still be approximated, and let you start playing while you learn, instead of requiring you to learn everything before you begin playing.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
]I want him to tongue-punch my box.
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
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TheFlatline
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When I saw the first paragraph I thought "thread necro? Again?"Stubbazubba wrote:PSA: He posted the same thread on RPG.net. Not sure what he intends to get out of it. Even RPG.net told him it was probably just a personal preference, not a problem with the hobby.
Edit: That being said, I think the problem might be how RPG products are generally presented as reference tools, not as true introductory materials. The learning curve is very high because you are given everything to learn at once. Even maintaining high levels of overall complexity, you could make the game easier to learn by introducing concepts one at a time into semi-scripted play. I admit that's not done best by text on a page or a screen, but it could still be approximated, and let you start playing while you learn, instead of requiring you to learn everything before you begin playing.
I swear silva has posted this post before. I just can't be bothered to go through his posting history to find him saying the same shit as always.
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fearsomepirate
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Any game more complex than a child's-level board game takes more than 15 minutes to get through ALL the rules.
I will say that I approached my 4e campaign the way Stubbazubba described. I walked the players (all of whom were new to TTRPGs, all of whom are grown-ups) through character creation, had them use the example point arrays in the PHB, and guided them through class options (no, you can't all be Fighters). Then when we actually played, I introduced more rules (like charging, prone, difficult terrain, etc) each time. But of course, the manual doesn't explain how to do this or have a lot of tutorials.
I will say that I approached my 4e campaign the way Stubbazubba described. I walked the players (all of whom were new to TTRPGs, all of whom are grown-ups) through character creation, had them use the example point arrays in the PHB, and guided them through class options (no, you can't all be Fighters). Then when we actually played, I introduced more rules (like charging, prone, difficult terrain, etc) each time. But of course, the manual doesn't explain how to do this or have a lot of tutorials.
You don't have to go through his personal post history - just page through the sub-forum for every thread he has ever started.TheFlatline wrote:When I saw the first paragraph I thought "thread necro? Again?"
I swear silva has posted this post before. I just can't be bothered to go through his posting history to find him saying the same shit as always.
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TheFlatline
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I know the gist of it is basically identical every time but I swore for a moment that this was like something he posted verbatim over a year ago.ACOS wrote:You don't have to go through his personal post history - just page through the sub-forum for every thread he has ever started.TheFlatline wrote:When I saw the first paragraph I thought "thread necro? Again?"
I swear silva has posted this post before. I just can't be bothered to go through his posting history to find him saying the same shit as always.
Serious deja-vu moment.
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fearsomepirate
- 1st Level
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His grammar is slipping. Didn't Shadzar start out with good grammar at the beginning too? Odd parallel there.OgreBattle wrote:...or maybe that is the ultimate structure of the Den, with the banning of one Shad comes the rise of another to take their place, the pariah that gives unity to an otherwise argumentative group.
Oh, that is definitely going to happen if you hang around here.fearsomepirate wrote:That's why it's great to be new to a forum! Everyone can rehash their old, tired crap, and it feels exciting and new to me!
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
]I want him to tongue-punch my box.
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
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DSMatticus
- King
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- Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:32 am
So how about that Wheel of Fate, huh?Leress wrote:Oh, that is definitely going to happen if you hang around here.fearsomepirate wrote:That's why it's great to be new to a forum! Everyone can rehash their old, tired crap, and it feels exciting and new to me!
Also, anyone have any ideas on how to make diplomacy work?
So, fighters, they suck, how do we fix this?DSMatticus wrote:So how about that Wheel of Fate, huh?Leress wrote:Oh, that is definitely going to happen if you hang around here.fearsomepirate wrote:That's why it's great to be new to a forum! Everyone can rehash their old, tired crap, and it feels exciting and new to me!
Also, anyone have any ideas on how to make diplomacy work?
Any ideas on good multiclassing systems?
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fearsomepirate
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