Plot device spells should be removed from the spell list

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User3
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Plot device spells should be removed from the spell list

Post by User3 »

For example, the Planar Binding spells should be a feat that functions like a version of Leadership.

Other spells that should be removed: Read Magic, Ally spells, Atonement, Raise and its like, most calling spells, holy site spells like Hallow or Desecrate(sp?), spells with permanent or instant (but really permanent) magical effects like Wish, spells that have an XP requirement.

There is no reason these spells should take up spell slots or be handed out as options to basic classes. Most are better represented as class features of PrCs or feats or they can be folded into skills.

For example, if you want to desecrate an unholy site, a Knowledge (religion) check can be used to break the Unhallow effect. The same kind of check can be used to create it with DCs based on circumstances.

Prophet can be feat where you get access to a certain number of divination effects per week/day/month based on your level and can be used a certain number of times on a given subject. It might be better as a NPC class.

Planar Binding will be a feat like Leadership except its based on level, can be taken at 1st level, and allows you to uses X numbers of levels of slaves(who fight for control and all that rot). The Ally spells will work just like Leadership, but you can trade out your cohort.

Wizard Locks can be simple magical devices, as can all the trap spells.

Permanency is just a magic item creation feat.

Wish can be a “bargain with extraplanar beings” spell with some new mechanic.

Raising spells should be handled like magic item creation. Raising 10-15 people a day because tou have that many slots is dumb. Almost as dumb as having an angel walk through a battlefield and raise your whole army.
rapanui
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Re: Plot device spells should be removed from the spell list

Post by rapanui »

"Almost as dumb as having an angel walk through a battlefield and raise your whole army."

[ot]Am I the only one that actually thinks that could make a pretty cool plot device at some epic/world-changing battle? Of course, it would only make sense if the soldiers could dole out more damage than the angel. But the angel could easily just be a manifestation of some god's will. [/ot]

On topic: I fully agree. A lot of the problem spells are problems because they function more like a plot device or feat than they should.
Lago_AM3P
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Re: Plot device spells should be removed from the spell list

Post by Lago_AM3P »

If we did that, the wizard would have no functional difference from a fighter except for inflicting insta-kills.

Considering that insta-kills only get moderately more sophisticated than sleep (in terms of range, targets, and finality), this would really leave only buff spells. Which have loads of problems already and will probably have to either go or we'll have to overhaul the magic system.

I'm not quite sure of the direction you want to go; further, I'm not sure if I support a revision where one of the cruxes for the revision is that a cleric raising 10-15 people from the dead a day is broken. Quite honestly, I don't think that is enough, for my tastes.
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Re: Plot device spells should be removed from the spell list

Post by Username17 »

I disagree completely. Plot Device spells are the only spells which make sense on a spell-slot system, and should be the only spells you can use your spell slots for.

Lightning Bolts don't really get balanced by spell slots. The disparity in combats per day between different games is astounding, and while almost any limit on the lightning bolts you can cast is going to catch up to you in five combats, it's hard to even imagine a limit which is going to matter in one combat. The time spent in combat per day varies in different gaming groups by over ten thousand percent - while the time spent out of combat per day is pretty close to 24 hours in all cases.

Non-combat plot driven spells, therefore, actually matter in a uses/day sense. After all, a combat doesn't generally even matter what day it happens on so combat spell slots simply encourage people to arbitrarily have rested between combats. Plots, on the other hand, do care what day they happen on and a limit on how many people you can raise from the dead per day directly affects how the plot is going to work out.

Fireballs should just happen. If they need a limit at all, they should be limited by having a casting time, or reducing the caster's capabilities for a short period after casting, or something, anything that isn't "uses per day".

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RandomCasualty
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Re: Plot device spells should be removed from the spell list

Post by RandomCasualty »

First... read magic is a plot device? :confused:

Personally I'd just say that I think plot device spells can remain, it's just that like any plot device their wording should be super vague and be one of those things that does whatever the DM wants them to do. If it's a plot thing, then you really don't need mechanics for it, you just want flavor text. It's like the one ring in LotR, it does certain stuff, and it can do all sorts of other undescribed stuff that fits the plot.

In other words, if you want a magically locked door, the door just happens to require whatever magical words or opening device that you want it to require. You don't necessarily want that duplicateable, nor do you even want mechanics for it. You just want to say the door is there in your dungeon, and the guy has a spell that made it, or used a feat or whatever. From a design point of view you don't want people mucking with it later, you just want it as a one shot for your dungeon.

Similarly, you don't really want resurrection spells that can be used on anyone, you want PCs coming back, you want NPCs coming back when dramatically appropriate and so on, but you really dont' want mechanics for it. You just want to use it when you want and not use it when you don't want it. Just like how the One Ring turns hobbits invisible and just makes Sauron totally kick ass.

Divinations I think definitely can have a place on a basic spell list because I consider stuff like that to be relatively normal, so long as you have certain stuff to thwart them. Divinations should generally exist or not exist based on their power level. If they make the game more fun, then leave them in, if they totally eliminate all player need to think like the psionic hypercognition power, then you just put an X through them. Slots work fine for those.

For every other plot device spell, you should make them behave like a plot device... that is they are practically absent of mechanics and full of flavor text, what they do is up to the plot. Because that's what a plot device is. It has tons of unforseen restrictions and benefits and consequences that just aren't quantifiable and happen on a case by case basis. Because with plot devices you don't want them working anytime, they work when it's dramatically appropriate for the plot. When the evil wizard happens to have summoned a demon and made him an ally, I really don't need mechanics for that and it's lots less abuseable when you dont' have mechanics.

As for combat spells, I do agree with Frank that they should be on a different system, especially direct damage spells, though I'm not sure how the system would work. I suppose you could always give people combat spells and reduce the number of slots for other spells to keep things balanced and then just apply other hindrances to combat spells depending on their power.
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Josh_Kablack
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Re: Plot device spells should be removed from the spell list

Post by Josh_Kablack »

I'm a bit confused exactly what you guys mean by "plot device spells". Could somebody throw down a loose definition here?
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Re: Plot device spells should be removed from the spell list

Post by Username17 »

Josh_Kablack at [unixtime wrote:1089601826[/unixtime]]I'm a bit confused exactly what you guys mean by "plot device spells". Could somebody throw down a loose definition here?


I'm using the term to mean:

Any spell that moves the plot forward rather than going "bang". Thus, any spell that advances your goals in any way yet does not get cast in combat is a plot devide spell.

That includes Teleport, Raise Dead, Fabricate, and Awaken from the wild world of fifth level spells. Spells like Cone of Cold and Flame Strike are "combat spells", and I don't want them to even come out of spell slots, but rather to be limited by something else. Note that spells like Wall of Stone are both a combat spell and a Plot Device Spell, so I would want it to be both limited in its total uses per day and cause some drain cost after being used in order to slightly limit players from building artificial mountains and to keep pillaries from being even more of a no-brainer killer app than they already are.

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User3
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Re: Plot device spells should be removed from the spell list

Post by User3 »

Plot device spells are those that dramatically alter the plot of the story based on one or more uses, or they are themselves a story.

Basically, I don't want to keep plot devices out of the hands of characters. I just don't want them to have either so many that I can't tell a story, or not forget to memorize them on the day I need them.

Writing a good puzzle riddle is pretty useless if all the PCs don't memorize Legend Lore.

Teleport is another example. It allows a person to skip all the adventures from point A to point B. Throw in scrying, and the 9th level party no longer needs to go dungeon crawling or castle/base storming. They just hop to the end, kill the BBEG, the battle is over, and they hop home.

Planar Binding is another. With a reasonable collection of monster manuals, its possible to get any effect you want or any task completed. Your abused underlings also become the fuel for future adventures when they come back to get revenge.

Raise Dead brings the dead to life, and with an angel on your side your entire side of the war can be raised at least 10 times(assuming an average Con of 11 for most 1st level dudes in your army).

Some spells are just so poorly designed that you are asking them to destroy the story. Take Wall of Stone. Its a nice little utility spell to build bridges or walls around enemies. Since it has an instaneous (but really permanent and undispellable) duration, a dedicated wizard can and will build castles, mountains, ect using just this one spell. That's dumb. Making castles with magic is not dumb, just the idea that in a short time everyone can live in a Wall of Stone house built by a wizard is dumb.

If it was a nice little spell with a duration, I wouldn't even worry about it.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Re: Plot device spells should be removed from the spell list

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

You didn't answer RC's question:

How is Read Magic a plot device?
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User3
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Re: Plot device spells should be removed from the spell list

Post by User3 »

Read Magic is a legacy spell from before the time when we had Spellcraft. Now, if you fail a spellcraft roll, you wait a day, memorize Read Magic, and try again to find out what the inscription or spell says.

Spellcraft can include a retry every X number of X units of time of research, and it would eliminate one more dumb spell that I never memorize except a day after I find something my Spellcraft doesn't decipher(which is almost never).
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