Shadowrun 4e newbie questions

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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele »

Remember that you need to cast the spell at enough force to be able to affect the allergy.
And then noticing magic is 6-Force Hits needed or something like that, if i remember correctly.
And so if you need a Force 6 Spell to get rid of the allergy, nobody needs a hit to notice the fact that you are under some kind of spell, correct?
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Longes »

Stahlseele wrote:Remember that you need to cast the spell at enough force to be able to affect the allergy.
And then noticing magic is 6-Force Hits needed or something like that, if i remember correctly.
And so if you need a Force 6 Spell to get rid of the allergy, nobody needs a hit to notice the fact that you are under some kind of spell, correct?
Why would you ever allevaite allergy at force higher than 3?
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Post by virgil »

Counterspelling can dispel active spell effects. Can it be used to dispel critter powers, like Concealment?
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Post by Stahlseele »

Longes wrote:
Stahlseele wrote:Remember that you need to cast the spell at enough force to be able to affect the allergy.
And then noticing magic is 6-Force Hits needed or something like that, if i remember correctly.
And so if you need a Force 6 Spell to get rid of the allergy, nobody needs a hit to notice the fact that you are under some kind of spell, correct?
Why would you ever allevaite allergy at force higher than 3?
Not sure if that was changed in SR4, but in SR3, you needed certain force treshholds to affect allergies of certain levels.
virgil wrote:Counterspelling can dispel active spell effects. Can it be used to dispel critter powers, like Concealment?
Strictly RAW, critter Powers are not spells and thus don't have active SPELL effects . .
If the critter-power is natural spell, yes, i see no reason why not . . but Powers like concealment . . no . .
Depends a bit on how dispelling is worded. If it is worded "magical effects" then yes, critter powers like concealment due to being magical certainly would fall under that.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Longes »

Is there any sane way to use Deep Cover and Judas qualities?
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Post by Stahlseele »

If both of these are aimed in such a way that they do not endanger the rest of the group, sure . . for example deep cover agent of the draco foundation and judas to the draco foundation that gets triggered by stuff like blood mages and toxics or aztlan for example.
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Captain_Karzak »

I have some questions:

(1) If a possession spirit inhabits something like a vehicle, does the possessed vehicle now ignore gravity the way materialization spirits do? If a spirit of air gets stuffed into a car, is it now a flying car?

(2) Is there a gather info skill? Data search + Browse gets mentioned but what about for gathering info from people outside the matrix? The Etiquette skill says it can be used to "manipulate conversations to get information out of people." So could you just do your own legwork in meatspace by making an extended Cha + Etiquette test to represent a character asking around?
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Post by Stahlseele »

1.) err, no, i don't quite think so.
The possession adds certain buffs to a vehicle, but it does not change how the vehicle itself works.

2.) not to my arguably limited knowledge, no.
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by JesterZero »

Captain_Karzak wrote:(2) Is there a gather info skill? Data search + Browse gets mentioned but what about for gathering info from people outside the matrix? The Etiquette skill says it can be used to "manipulate conversations to get information out of people." So could you just do your own legwork in meatspace by making an extended Cha + Etiquette test to represent a character asking around?
Well, you could, in the sense where no one is going to come to your table and tell you you're doing it wrong, and in the sense that an idea like that is at least a step up from MTP. So we're into house-rule territory, but I think you're on the right track.

Information gathering in Shadowrun has been largely handwaved across all editions, which is a shame, because arguably that's exactly the sort of thing that would be valuable to attach back to supported archtypes. So your Decker can go get Matrixy info, and your Mage can go get Magical info, and your Street Sam can go get Street info, and then you come back and put the pieces together and plan your heist. That's a wonderful thing to do, and you should totally do that. It's just not well supported by RAW. But as you've pointed out, this is the sort of thing that an Extended Test mechanic (specifically the Quick variant, since pointless re-rolling is pointless) is good for.

After Sundown has some ideas that might point you in that direction in the "Montages" section. You'll need to re-jigger the dicepools a bit, but it'll get you started. It's quite similar to what you describe.
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Post by Username17 »

Shadowrun has always used Etiquette as a gather information roll. Generally the way adventures do it is to list various information you get with various amounts of hits on your Etiquette test when doing nebulous "legwork."

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Post by virgil »

4th edition, someone takes enough damage to go to -(Body+2). Ordinarily, this kills them, but they burnt a point of Edge. One of the players was in a van and is a trained trauma surgeon.

What are the established rules on recovery/healing from this? Time is a factor in the mission, so knowing how long it will take is important, and I'd like to know the rules before changing anything.
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Post by Aryxbez »

virgil wrote:4th edition, someone takes enough damage to go to -(Body+2). Ordinarily, this kills them, but they burnt a point of Edge. One of the players was in a van and is a trained trauma surgeon.

What are the established rules on recovery/healing from this? Time is a factor in the mission, so knowing how long it will take is important, and I'd like to know the rules before changing anything.
Dude, that PC is pretty much out of the adventure, you don't just "come back" from something like that, the character in question likely ends up with a notable scar, or defect of some kind. It says in the last sentence that: "should be incapacitated until the end of the current adventure or until the gamemaster deems she has recovered from the side effects of her close call."

So pending how the character "died", and the extent of what that injury would've been, we can then take from the healing rules to derive a time. Looks like Surgery would just give +1 die/success to the Healing extended test. Otherwise could be considered a "Stabalization" (pg253) roll, then after that ye just apply First Aid as normal. If not using that timeline, I'd suggest making it an extended test, w/Interval of 30-60min, Threshold 12? (maybe 24 if wanna play up how major it was, or the boxes of HP it would've ended up all filling works too).
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Post by kzt »

Unless the trained trauma surgeon also had a preped OR, a CT and his surgical team in the van you'd likely be better off with an experienced paramedic. Knowing how to cut people open to fix the things that are killing them works a lot better with the tools to cut them open, the tools (and someone to run them while he cuts) to keep them alive during this process and some idea where to start cutting.
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Post by Aryxbez »

So one of players in our group "Hulks-out" on spirit powers and junk. Other than some super stats I'm unfamiliar with, Earthquake & Storm (giant awesome radius's), what are some other good Spirit powers to yoink?
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries

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Post by pragma »

Concealment, movement and confusion. High force concealment means most observers can't make perception rolls and even modest efforts at stealth (invisibility spell or a potted plant prop) render you invisible. Confusion saps other dice pools to render you more durable in combat. Movement makes you stupid fast.

Guard and accident are also nice, but I'd class them as signifcantly less useful than the first three.
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Post by Stahlseele »

Do remember that both storm and earthquake only get ridiculous if you have a great form spirit at hand. And for that you need the invocation Metamagic. In their normal variant they are not as awesome . . and in their great form variant they will pretty much simply destroy a city they are used in so handle with MUCH care.

Concealment < = breaker of all things perception and stealth related.
Confusion < = in SR3 simply completely broken, no idea if that was changed in SR4. In SR3 you did not actually get to resist it and had to make a willpower test every time you wanted to do something while affected and then still suffered debilitating modifiers to actually doing it . . and if you did not succeed, you simply did nothing but stand around like a lobotomized servitor waiting for orders.
Movement < = hillariously broken in some regards if you can convince the GM to use physics.
Endowment < = can give a character a spirit power without the spirit needing to inhabit/possess the body. Yes, technically i guess you can give regeneration to somebody and force his augmentations out if you want to.
Or give your buddy immunity to normal weapons . .
Wealth depends on how you can use it, mostly for downtime stuff . .
Elemental Aura(or whatever the spirit equivalent would be) has some nice applications as well . . light spirit! go hug that vampire over there please!
engulf was a very usefull power for combat as well, if i remember correctly. Basically, you can not really resist the initial engulfing and then you take damage based on the force of the spirit every round untill you manage to break free from it.

Do remember that without the channeling metamagic, you give up control of possessed characters to the GM for him to interpret orders the mage who summoned the spirit gives . . and do tell me wether or not you are actually in a group that enforces this, as that is the balance tool for possession . . it's equally as rare in my opinion as background count actually being used as it is written up in the book <.<
And without channeling, everything you want to do is an order and needs a service. Turn around < = one service. Attack enemy A < = one service. Change your weapon < = one service. Use Spirit Power/Spell < = one service. Possess him < = one service. The only reason why you don't need a service to unpossess people is that you can simply use up services and the spirit usually hates it more than enough to go "fuck that shit, i'm outta here" as soon as he is done with his services.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by phlapjackage »

Stahlseele wrote:Do remember that without the channeling metamagic, you give up control of possessed characters to the GM for him to interpret orders the mage who summoned the spirit gives . . and do tell me wether or not you are actually in a group that enforces this, as that is the balance tool for possession . . it's equally as rare in my opinion as background count actually being used as it is written up in the book <.<
And without channeling, everything you want to do is an order and needs a service. Turn around < = one service. Attack enemy A < = one service. Change your weapon < = one service. Use Spirit Power/Spell < = one service. Possess him < = one service. The only reason why you don't need a service to unpossess people is that you can simply use up services and the spirit usually hates it more than enough to go "fuck that shit, i'm outta here" as soon as he is done with his services.
This isn't right. Yes, without channeling the player doesn't get to directly control actions. But the book specifically calls for the GM to mostly allow the player to still control the possessed character. It's a little bit of a gray area, but you can tell the writers are basically telling the GM not to be a dick and to just let the player play unless there's something really controversial being done.

SM: Possession sidebar, 103
"In the interest of fairness, it is suggested gamemasters allow a player of a possessed magician to roleplay the spirit that they command and which is controlling their body. Gamemasters may want to consider extending this option to players whose characters are possessed by “friendly” spirits so that they are not relegated to the sidelines"

The only real downside to not having channeling is that you don't get to use the character's skills and don't have "fine motor control over her body" while possessed. (SM: Channeling, 54)

Also, not everything you said is a service. There's no way "turn around" is a service. Generally a use of a specific power or a task is a service. If you say "kill those guards" (a task), the spirit might use multiple powers at it's discretion (confusion / elemental aura / accident) and it still counts as only one service. (SR4A: Spirit Services, 186)
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Post by Stahlseele »

Yes, "destroy that building" would be a service.
But so would be "go o the other side of this room"
an order is a service. each order is a service.
if the spirit needs to do several things to fullfill the order, then that's just better service economy than trying to micro manage by giving the spirit exact orders.
and that is a suggestion, not a rule. RAW you need channeling metamagic for that to work. this is part of why magic is so fucking broken, because nobody actually uses the rules as written and just lets people do what they think they should be able to do because "it's magic and i don't have to explain shit!"
That suggestion is the devs admitting that possession is useless for beginning magicians, them not liking it because magicrun reasons and thus basically all but telling the GM to simply GIFT the channeling metamagic FOR FREE to any mage with possession spirits.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by phlapjackage »

The book tells you to let the player roleplay the possessing spirit. So if, idk, the scenario is "set up an ambush", the player wouldn't have to issue a service to the spirit to go to the other side of the room and wait behind the door. The spirit can be roleplayed just naturally doing that.

Magic is so fucking broken for a lot of reasons, but not because of the spirit-services thing. Spirits in general are too powerful and easy to summon. But once summoned, they should be useful without the player having to play the "make a wish and hope the GMGenie isn't a dick" game.
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Post by Stahlseele »

You have rules that say one thing and then right next to these rules you go and say:"actually, these rules suck, ignore them."
Telling people to ignore rules is straight into MTP and the land of wish believe the GM allows you to do what you can describe your special snowflake to be doing.
The rules, quite clearly, say that no, the possessed character is not controlled by his player anymore. exception for the mage self possessing. and then he has to use services to accomplish his goals. that is pretty cut and dry.
And in the ambush scenario: you give the spirit the order: set up an ambush, and the spirit goes behind the door. one service expended.
which is basically go over there, but you did not tell the spirit to go over there but simply go and set up an ambush. if the spirit thinks "you are an idiot starscream", he is not going to wait behind that door but do something else that fullfills the creating an ambush criteria. if you have a dick gm or spirit bane or a history of mistreating spirits (yes, that is a thing as of SR4, if i remember correctly), then it does not even have to be an successfull ambush.
it's quite literally the intent and letter or the wish problem. the one, major, balancing factor for this sort of thing. which usually gets handwaved because oh no, that just would not be fair to the poor widdle magic user now would it?
Last edited by Stahlseele on Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by phlapjackage »

I don't think the rules quite clearly say what you're saying. Can you quote me the rules that "say one thing and then right next to those rules..." ? I honestly don't know what you're talking about.

Is it about how a spirit possesses a vessel? The rules have a general rule about possession, then particular rules about a character playing a possession mage (or any character possessed by a friendly spirit). Particular outweighs the general, right?

Channeling is many things; yes it's nice that it clears up the "who's in control" question, but it also allows the merged-character to use the character's skills when possessed. This is a huge deal, and imo much more important. Possessed mages without channelling can't cast, can't summon other spirits, can't fire a gun, can't use Stealth, etc (unless the spirit has a relevant skill to use, which isn't likely as spirits don't have a ton of skills). So the guideline to let non-channeling mages have some control is not nearly as powerful as you make it out to be when you say that it's basically "channeling for free". Channeling is a feat-tax for possession mages.

Yeah, spirit bane and spirit-mistreatment brings a whole other flavor to this. Let's ignore those for now.

*edit* going back and re-reading, maybe I've misunderstood your original point about "without the channeling metamagic, you give up control of possessed characters to the GM for him to interpret orders the mage who summoned the spirit gives". My points were only about a mage self-possessing or a character being possessed by a friendly spirit.
Last edited by phlapjackage on Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
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PhoneLobster: DM : Mr Monkey doesn't like it. Eldritch : Mr Monkey can do what he is god damn told.
MGuy: The point is to normalize 'my' point of view. How the fuck do you think civil rights occurred? You think things got this way because people sat down and fucking waited for public opinion to change?
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Post by Longes »

I'd like to make a possession mage who is also a rigger. The spirits are going to possess drones to power them up. Is this a bad idea? If yes, then why? If no, then how do I go about it? I haven't played rigger before, so I don't know what stats are good and bad for them. I'm assuming Intuition for initiative, and Logic to repair the drones.

Alternatively, how good is a possession cybered troll combat mage? Points into physical stats and the drain stat. Cybering dumps Magic, but possessing spirit overrides your mental stats and magic.
Last edited by Longes on Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Korwin »

If I remember right, then possessing high tech equimpent is pretty hard...

Alternate plan is IMHO better, if by cybered you mean 1 (or max. 2) Essence Point used on bio- and cyberware.
Nitpick: Your mental stats are not overriden, but you use the lesser one of both (high force Spirit you use yours. Low force Spirit you use the Spirits)

Edit:
and an Elf might work better (since Vodoo is the best Possession Tradition).
Last edited by Korwin on Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Stahlseele »

Isn't something nonliving target inhabitation instead of possession?
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Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Longes »

Korwin wrote:If I remember right, then possessing high tech equimpent is pretty hard...

Alternate plan is IMHO better, if by cybered you mean 1 (or max. 2) Essence Point used on bio- and cyberware.
Nitpick: Your mental stats are not overriden, but you use the lesser one of both (high force Spirit you use yours. Low force Spirit you use the Spirits)

Edit:
and an Elf might work better (since Vodoo is the best Possession Tradition).
Street Magic p.101 wrote:Living Vessels

If the vessel is a living creature, the spirit’s Force is added to the vessel’s Physical attributes. While possessed, the spirit’s Mental and Special attributes are used (which means that a possessed technomancer cannot access Resonance), with Initiative recalculated as normal (use the spirit’s normal Initiative Passes). The spirit is in full physical control of the vessel, but does not have access to the host’s knowledge, skills, or experience. The mind of the vessel remains in whatever state it was when possession began; if conscious, it becomes an impotent witness locked inside its own body for the duration.
Street Magic p.54 wrote:Channeling
Channeling is a metamagic power developed by possession tradition magicians to enhance their control of spirits, using the magician’s body as a vessel. Through Channeling, a magician who was willingly possessed can find a balance between the two minds (the spirit’s and her own) occupying her body and achieve greater control. The Channeling magician can use her own skills and has fine motor control over her body while enjoying the enhancing benefits of the Possession power (see p. 101). Control is still shared, however, and the magician is unable to tap the possessing spirit’s powers without expending a service. Additionally, the vessel resists any mana spells or powers with the lowest Mental attribute of the two minds (whichever is lower, the spirit’s or the magician’s). Otherwise, resolve the effects and duration of Possession normally (see p. 101).
It seems to me that "Use Spirit's Mental attributes" statement is correct by the Channeling metamagic's description, unless you are defending against spells.

The reason I think troll is a better choice than an elf is because troll has better physical attributes, which will get even bigger when possessed by the Guardian Spirit.
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