The Axis wins after all.

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Username17
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The Axis wins after all.

Post by Username17 »

Consider what the position of "world leader" actually means. It means that people around the world will look to you for leadership. So consider the following:

Tsunami Aid by Nation, public and private.

So, with Australia, Deutchland and Nippon being the leaders in absolute aid (not even relative aid), and much of the US aid coming in slowly or wih strings attached (making it more like a 350 million dollar loan), who exactly do you think the rest of the world is going to look to talk to when they want o do something?

Certainly not the US. Which means that oddly the Axis wins. Germany and Japan are ending up with world leader status anyway. How's that for irony?

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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by Maj »

I love your perspective, Frank. It's always so different. Mind if I quote you?

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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by Username17 »

Go for it.

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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by MrWaeseL »

Those figures are outdated. The Netherlands has (have?) donated 120 mil yesterday :biggrin:

Still, I agree with your assessment.
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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Good. I hope the world will realize that Americans aren't good at solving problems unless the solutions involve cruise missiles in some way.
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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by Maj »

<nod> I'm waiting for the rest of the countries in the UN to just flat-out tell us no. We need the slap to our faces.
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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Leaving Tsunami aid for the moment, the rest of the world has been telling us "no" in no uncertain terms since about, oh, 1 week after we went to war in Afghanistan. Everybody's telling us "no," from the people of India ("Who cares about the US, they're basically dinosaurs, China is where it's at") to those of every major country in Europe except for Britain (that's why Americans, and not, say, Swedes, are dieing in Iraq), to the happy-go-lucky Russkies (We don't need no stinking Democracy) to the peeps in China (We don't need no stinking US exports).

We've lost so much prestige, clout, and political-economic power in the last 4 years, I'm not sure my daughter will even vaguely remember the days when America was the 1000 pound gorilla. We can be as Super as we want, but if everybody hates us, and we don't start just killing them like Nazi Germany would, we aren't going to be able to do much
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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

You know what I think it is?

(Note: Following commentary is 100% based on gut reactions, with not a shred of evidence to support it, so don't feel all high and mighty when you point out innacuracies)

I think that part of what made Maerica a great nation in the past, is that we took the best parts of many different countries, used what worked, and threw out waht didn't.

Our problem now is that we'ver stopped even caring what other countries do, so we're in a rut. Hell, they even told me in school that other nations were inherently inferior to america, that's why there were no foreign language classes, because anyone who counted spoke English.

I think in order to be great again, we need to realize we still have lots to learn from other people. It's not like everyone that's not an American is a stupid naked savage running around beating animals with pointy sticks, they must be doing something that would benefit us to learn about.
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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by Username17 »

OK, now I'm curious. What the hell kind of school was that?

And while your basic summation seems largely correct, it is (unsurprisingly) slightly more complicated than that. I know, I know... you're shocked.

But one of the big reasons that we have been in a rut of late is that we were the best of the best, at everything, in 1945. What did that mean? Well, it meant that we could sell anything to anyone for less than it would cost them to make it themselves. It meant that with little effort we amassed huge amounts of foreign currency and even larger pile of foreign goods. Our goods and services were better and cheaper than everyone else's.

So what happened then? Well, everyone else tried to balance themselves with us. They copied us in ways that made sense for them. They tried out new ideas. The picked their battles. And sometimes, they didn't win.

But sometimes they did. And the world is a very big place that has a lot of somebody elses in it. By 1970 there was someone in the world who made anything better and cheaper than we did. Oh sure, there wasn't a country on Earth that could compete was us in everything, there wasn't even a people on the planet who could compete with us in aggragate. But in every arena there was someone who stood just a little bit taller than we did.

And what did we do? Did we say "Oh geez, we've got a big problem and a huge pile of money, let's just select a couple of national industries and do them really well by having a few five-year plans of our own."? Did we even say "Ballz to this yo, let's bomb the crap out of Deutchland again, we can't allow VW to beat GM."? Oh heck no. Our answer was as simple as it was shortsighted (assuming your goal was the continued hegemony of the United States):

"Screw it, we'll just let these foreigners give us high quality swag. It's their money anyways, and now we get the cream of the crop from all over the world without having to do a damned thing."

Beautiful fiddling there. Of course, eventually the money ran out, and we had allowed our own industry to basically go to hell in the interim. We haven't produced a Television in the United States for as long as I've been alive. And now that we don't even have TV production facilities here - the new ones that we get wear out after a couple of years of use. The old Zeniths are still functioning, do think that's some kind of fvcking accident?

Yeah, the rest of the world is heavily getting into the "What have you done for us lately?" school, and I don't blame them. The truth is, we really haven't done anything for them since before I was born. The new generation is coming out and they look at vast quantities of resource being sent the US, and they ask why - and noone has any good answer for them! They say "Why don't we just, you know... not give 1/3 of our GDP to the Americans?" And the only answer they ever get is "Because we are afraid of the US military. It is very strong, and prone to be deployed on little or no justification, so we'd really rather not give them any."

So the younger generation asks "What can we do that will prevent the Americans form invading us then?"

And the answer actually is:

Build nuclear weapons.

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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1105339458[/unixtime]]OK, now I'm curious. What the hell kind of school was that?


Virginia Public schools. I almost got sent to the office for saying that France had freedom too. (Because, they were telling us that since America was the only democracy, America was the only free country. I pointed out there were other Democracies, and got yelled at for pointing out the innacuracy of the education materials.)

Edited in: And later that day, some glandular freak tried to pick a fight with me for "badmouthing America" in the playground.

Messed up things to be telling 9 year olds, huh?
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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by Username17 »

I liked hating the French when it was all about real things. Subtle stuff, too. Like how when the Nazis "conquered" the place, the chief of police of Paris kept his job, and the dossiers on all the citizens stayed put before, during, and after the Nazi occupation. Or how the French guaranty of religious freedom is a joke (In the United States, congress is forbidden from making a law that restricts religious freedom - in France you have the right to practice your religion so longs as you don't break any laws doing it - a subtle disntinction which basically renders your religious freedom a hoax).

Now that all the cool kids are going about hating the French for made up shit, it's just not fun anymore. What's the use in mocking them for having cops on the street with assault rifles who can demand your papers at any time and jail you if you don't have them when New York had the same thing while I was there this summer?

Back when most people didn't know the subtle ugly side of France, it was fun to talk about. Now that everyone's babbling about various rumored crimes that they are not, in fact, guilty of - it just makes the whole thing feel icky. I end up spending my time reminding people about the fvcking Silver Lining all the time.

I used to have to remind people that they have a damn book that lists what names you are allowed to name your children - and now I have to remind people that they have a reasonably open press and subsidized medical care. What the hell is wrong with this country that so many people are hating the French for stuff they didn't actually do that there isn't room for me to hate the French for what they actually did?!

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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1105341613[/unixtime]]e (In the United States, congress is forbidden from making a law that restricts religious freedom - in France you have the right to practice your religion so longs as you don't break any laws doing it - a subtle disntinction which basically renders your religious freedom a hoax).


I'm pretty sure that applies in america too, they can arrest Ras Tafarians for smoking Ganga, since it's illegal here.
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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by RandomCasualty »

Count_Arioch_the_28th at [unixtime wrote:1105342931[/unixtime]]
FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1105341613[/unixtime]]e (In the United States, congress is forbidden from making a law that restricts religious freedom - in France you have the right to practice your religion so longs as you don't break any laws doing it - a subtle disntinction which basically renders your religious freedom a hoax).


I'm pretty sure that applies in america too, they can arrest Ras Tafarians for smoking Ganga, since it's illegal here.


Yeah that's the way it's done and it has to be that way.

Otherwise some guy can just create a church that justifies murder and claim freedom of religion whenever he kills somebody.

True freedom of religion can never truly happen without total anarchy. All freedom of religion means is that you can't be put under arrest solely for your beliefs, it gives you no such defense for your actions.
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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by Maj »

Frank wrote:And now that we don't even have TV production facilities here - the new ones that we get wear out after a couple of years of use. The old Zeniths are still functioning, do think that's some kind of fvcking accident?


Planned obsolescence is supposed to be a marketing tactic, not a measure of quality.

Either way, it's straight ass.

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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

The constitution basically prohibits laws that restrict Religious practice unless:

1. They are laws of general application,
2. They weren't enacted specifically to screw over any specific religion, and
3. They don't unreasonably interfere w/ any religious practices.

Lots of interesting cases about Santeria, animal cruelty laws, and zoning laws. My wife studied this stuff extensively for some reason in Law school.

* * *

But like Frank, I miss the days when you could hate the French for being French, not b/c they were anti-American beret-heads. Opposing US actions in Iraq b/c of lack of evidence that those actions would do good, instead of the clearly bad results that seemed imminent, is, like, the one thing the French have done right since the early days of the French Revolution.
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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by MrWaeseL »

Maj at [unixtime wrote:1105386179[/unixtime]]
Frank wrote:And now that we don't even have TV production facilities here - the new ones that we get wear out after a couple of years of use. The old Zeniths are still functioning, do think that's some kind of fvcking accident?


Planned obsolescence is supposed to be a marketing tactic, not a measure of quality.

Either way, it's straight ass.


It sucks, but it works pretty well from the standpoint of the corporations.
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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by Josh_Kablack »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1105339458[/unixtime]]
But sometimes they did. And the world is a very big place that has a lot of somebody elses in it. By 1970 there was someone in the world who made anything better and cheaper than we did.


:confused:

We still have movies and high-speed pizza delivery, even if the bricklayers in Calcutta did prove they could code software better and cheaper.
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Re: The Axis wins after all.

Post by Tae_Kwon_Dan »

Actually from most folks I've ever talked to about outsourcing. They do it faster and cheaper, because they'll work for 12 cents a day and no bathroom breaks.

In terms of actual quality code you have to look to Europe and they get paid the same as American software engineers.
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