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brized
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Post by brized »

Bow optimization wrote:Your rate of fire is 5/2 (5 attacks every other round, 2 attacks every round [ex: your first barrage of arrows, you fire 2, next round, you fire 5, round after that, you fire 2 and so on]).
Uhh, the attack rate in AD&D2E progressed by "half attacks" by adding one extra attack every other round like this:
1 Attack
3/2 Attacks
2 Attacks
5/2 Attacks
3 Attacks
7/2 Attacks
4 Attacks
etc.

Unless there's some other part that it's using for the math in the bow optimization, 5/2 means 2 attacks on odd rounds and 3 attacks on even rounds, for a total of 5 attacks every 2 rounds. Getting 2 attacks on the first round and then 5 on the next totals out to 7 attacks per 2 rounds, or 7/2. Not 5/2.

Not that it matters too much since the build will still splatter most things in the game. Screwing up something that fundamental to the rule set is troubling, though.
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Post by Sakuya Izayoi »

Got into an argument with a friend last night over whether to houserule the point buy chargen. He felt the cap of 15 imposed by the default 5e point buy rules was fine, I felt the system was created in bad faith to mock you by danging scores of 18 out of your reach.

My question is, would it actually break anything to just use 3.PF pointbuy?
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Post by Ghremdal »

Crap of different color is still crap.

Nothing much would change. Everyone would still play humans (if they want a feat) or any race that gives +2/+2 to their primary and secondary attribute if they don't.
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Post by ACOS »

Sakuya Izayoi wrote:Got into an argument with a friend last night over whether to houserule the point buy chargen. He felt the cap of 15 imposed by the default 5e point buy rules was fine, I felt the system was created in bad faith to mock you by danging scores of 18 out of your reach.

My question is, would it actually break anything to just use 3.PF pointbuy?
It's not there to tease you; it's there to be patronizing. They actually want you to roll your stats - the point buy is simply there to mollify those who have gotten use to doing point buy, while simultaneously enforcing the idea that rolling is the for realz way and point buy is wrongbadfun.
It's rather insulting when you think about it.

But to answer your question: as long as you don't exceed what would be a reasonable expectation from rolling, then it's a total wash - i.e., go for it.
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Post by Eikre »

If they want to encourage rolling stats, the modernist approach would be to let everyone roll a single stat-set, but also have the option to use whatever one of their groupmates rolled.

It would be great. You could greyhawk an entire party until you got a guy with triple 18s and roll your real characters based on him.
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Post by ACOS »

Not sure which 5e thread would have been most appropriate; but this one seems good enough:

I just got done reading a quite lengthy rant by Angry DM, where he REALLY breaks down what is possibly D&D's biggest downfall - their approach to marketing and recruiting new players.

And just when you thought he was done, some guy picked up the ball in the comments section, and just kept running.
We even get a Gwendolyn Kestrel cameo.

tl;dr = WotC has no clue how to market D&D to prospective new players, and will probably drop that ball all the way down to the "basement of retired/forgotten games".

It really is an impassioned and insightful rant; and thought I'd drop it off here to see what you guys made of it (especially from Frank and AH; but everyone else too).
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Post by Ravengm »

It really surprises me that their marketing is that incompetent when Magic rakes in new players all the time. You'd think there'd be at least some cues picked up.
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Post by ACOS »

M:tG, by its very nature, inherently has much lower barriers to entry, on multiple levels. So, it's not that hard to rope in new players.
A starter deck is only a few dollars (money)
the rules are much simpler and easier to learn (effort)
you play a hand and can move on to something else (time)
you only need one other person to play (coordination of time and effort)

and I'm sure I'm missing a few.

Angry laid out just exactly how to actually package a "starter set"; I think the brainiacs up at D&D just get too tunnel-visioned.
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Post by rapa-nui »

the rules are much simpler and easier to learn (effort)
:rofl:

There's a huge problem with this argument, even if I allow that the rules of Magic are simpler and easier (they aren't).

The rules of Magic matter. As in, for $$$ and airplane tickets.

If you memorize the entire PHB like it's the Quran and you're at a madrasa, it might not matter if your DM just vetoes every broken stupid thing you try to do and Magical Teaperties the whole campaign.

In Magic, if you forget how Electrolyze interacts with Spellskite, you can lose a lot of money.
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Post by Eikre »

The newbie half-deck, is in fact, a free sample.

It even comes pre-shuffled, so the guy running the register can, on a slow day, hand you one and immediately begin playing a teaching game at the counter with you. There is seriously a 30 second delay between entering the store and turn 1 of your first game.

Additionally: They have a videogame. A REAL videogame. It is on steam, consoles, and your telephone. It is well advertised and shiny, there is a new one literally every year going back half a decade, it has a tutorial and a single player, and you can also play it with your friends online.

What does D&D have, again? Jesus christ I don't even know, I learned how THAC0 worked just for Torment and I know people who don't even know they learned 3E for KotOR, but whatever they've made since Neverwinter 2 just occupies zero of my mindspace.
rapa-nui wrote:In Magic, if you forget how Electrolyze interacts with Spellskite, you can lose a lot of money.
Who the fuck cares, you pedantic coprophage?

We are talking about new players. They are not signing up so that they can play in next month's Vintage tournament, they are here to drink soda and tap elves. How far are you up your own butthole?
Last edited by Eikre on Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sam »

Tournaments are a big part of moving players from "oh I played that" to "oh I spent a fortune on that" which is obviously important. But the importance of rules seriously will spill over into casual games. Back in 1994, different magic groups had a huge variety of personal house rules, and that all went away once the Pro Tour got big.

I think the biggest factor for magic is that you can just see people playing it and get interested. When was the last time you saw people playing D&D in public? Better yet, magic gets played at high school. You can throw down some cards during recess and pick up a new player. Magic doesn't need special ambassadors because everyone playing is just passively advertising the game.
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Post by erik »

ACOS wrote: tl;dr = WotC has no clue how to market D&D to prospective new players, and will probably drop that ball all the way down to the "basement of retired/forgotten games".
It seems fairly spot on especially with the guy in comments who added additional utterfails by WotC.
• Getting rid of the OGL, and to wit 3rd party publishers
• Getting rid of their RPGA establishment
• Cutting loose their magazine publisher

And I will add that they are compounding to the failscapade by shitting on game stores, targeting sales through Amazon with major discounts to boost their Amazon rating. That will sell more books to the faithful, but new people aren't going to join the hobby from Amazon.

Any of these alone is bad, but combined they have pretty much crapped all over their ability to generate new players and ruined their support market that generated lower return products faster than WotC could hope to.

It's like they had a totally non-gamer suit/exec come in and start making snap decisions to try and trim the bottom line without thinking about long term consequences on their industry impact, just the short term stab for more dollars.

It really shouldn't even have come as a surprise that Pathfinder or someone else would "steal" all the 3.5 fans they left behind. If it wasn't Paizo it probably could have been another publisher, though Paizo was certainly the best positioned as it had the flashiest marketing cloaked as a playtest, and they seemed to be one of the few that had the wits to and the oomph to maintain a player society. All those d20 publishers that got abandoned, you have to expect that they'll try to continue carrying the torch.

Perhaps the only thing that might have stopped them is that it is a small enough world that there were only a handful of large enough companies to attempt to fill 3rd Edition's shoes, and they might have been demoralized enough to pack it in. If the Scarred Lands team or one of the others had been bold enough they could have become the new Pathfinder possibly, but I think many of the 3e publishers struggled when 3.5 cut their knees out. I wonder if there was no Pathfinder if Arcana Evolved would be the big thing but that would have required them to have more gamer outreach (something like RPGA/Pathfinder Society) and either a more aggressive publishing cycle or something to get other companies to write things for their worlds.

Kingdoms of Kalamar had a bit of its own RPGA but it was a minor niche and didn't have gravitas that Malhavoc Press, Paizo or Sword & Sorcery could have brought. Standing in the shadow of 4e and saying "Hey, let's improve 3.5" was a bold move that shouldn't have been too hard to do since at that point everyone had notions of how to improve 3e and had been left wanting.
Last edited by erik on Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by nockermensch »

ACOS wrote:I just got done reading a quite lengthy rant by Angry DM, where he REALLY breaks down what is possibly D&D's biggest downfall - their approach to marketing and recruiting new players.

And just when you thought he was done, some guy picked up the ball in the comments section, and just kept running.
We even get a Gwendolyn Kestrel cameo.
+1'ing to all that. Both to the Angry DM's article as the another guy's bonus article on the comments. They helped to put words on a lot of ill feelings I have seeing how D&D books are presented.

While erik provide a good TL;DR; for the bonus article's conclusions, I recommend you guys to go there and read the whole thing.
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Post by ACOS »

rapa-nui wrote:
the rules are much simpler and easier to learn (effort)
:rofl:

There's a huge problem with this argument, even if I allow that the rules of Magic are simpler and easier (they aren't).

The rules of Magic matter. As in, for $$$ and airplane tickets.

If you memorize the entire PHB like it's the Quran and you're at a madrasa, it might not matter if your DM just vetoes every broken stupid thing you try to do and Magical Teaperties the whole campaign.

In Magic, if you forget how Electrolyze interacts with Spellskite, you can lose a lot of money.
You're mixing up all kinds of crazy bullshit here.
Though, I guess I should have been more specific - replace "rules" with "procedures", and I'm 100% correct (which is what I was going for anyway - my bad).
But anyway ...
Last I checked, M:tG rule set doesn't take up anywhere near the ink and paper as its sister brand (i.e., D&D).
Can M:tG be more nuanced than D&D? I'm sure that it very well could be (can't really say - I haven't touched a Magic deck in >15 years). But that doesn't have anything to do with how easy/hard the game is to learn.
Just because some arbitrary stakes get put in place doesn't mean anything - M:tG is a competitive game, D&D is a cooperative game. See the difference? That has jack shit to do with anything in my post.
Your tone is also kinda bullshit - you're coming across as if to say "if you ain't playin' the pro leagues, you ain't really playin' the game".
Um ... no.
You, sir, seemed to have missed my point.
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Post by ACOS »

nockermensch wrote: +1'ing to all that. Both to the Angry DM's article as the another guy's bonus article on the comments. They helped to put words on a lot of ill feelings I have seeing how D&D books are presented.

While erik provide a good TL;DR; for the bonus article's conclusions, I recommend you guys to go there and read the whole thing.
This just reminded me of something else ...
I've only just recently been able to put my finger on what bothers be so bad about listening to Mearls talk, and about how things have been being presented over the last several years: Marketing Speak - it's the only vernacular these mf'ers seem to know.
It was only in the past week or so that it finally clicked. You guys remember the movie Big (a la Tom Hanks)? Do you remember the one scene where they're all in a product pitch meeting pitching various products for future production? At one point in that scene, Hanks's character stops everything and says something to the effect of "what does all that bullshit even mean?" and then rants against all the bullshit Marketing Speak that they're trying to embed in all their advertizing. And then he breaks down how to describe things in a practical, natural-language way.
Well, Mearls, as well as everyone else attached to the D&D brand, and all the advertising, uses that bullshit Marketing Speak; and I'm left feeling like Hanks's character, saying "stop with all your bullshit vernacular".

Just thought I'd share that with the group. I hope I'm not alone in this.
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Post by Foxwarrior »

ACOS wrote:Last I checked, M:tG rule set doesn't take up anywhere near the ink and paper as its sister brand (i.e., D&D).
Well, it's very seldom printed out, so there's that. But it is still 200 pages long, with no fluff or card descriptions. http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/t ... 140601.pdf
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Post by hogarth »

erik wrote: • Adding to the failscapade by shitting on game stores, targeting sales through Amazon with major discounts to boost their Amazon rating.
Where in the comments did it say anything about "Amazon rating"?

The folks at Paizo say that Amazon buys the same books at the same wholesale price as every other store, but they're happy with a few cents of markup instead of 40%. Now I suppose that WotC has some super-special discount on top of that, but it's really Amazon's business model that is shitting on game stores (and book stores in general).
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Post by erik »

ACOS, Mike Mearls has words for you.

[edit: sorry Hogarth, that was my addition to it. I shouldn't have bulleted it since I didn't intend for it to be a part of the summary of that guy's points.

I'll edit out the bullet for clarity's sake.
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Post by rapa-nui »

some moron wrote:Who the fuck cares, you pedantic coprophage?
Did you pull out the thesaurus for me? Flattered.
ACOS wrote:You, sir, seemed to have missed my point.
It was not the most charitable reading. I will concede that there's at least a plan to get someone from not knowing a thing about MTG to playing, whereas for D&D it's more of a self-motivated thing where you have to be curious *and* have the patience to do some reading. And yes, MtG is often extremely nuanced.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Foxwarrior wrote:
ACOS wrote:Last I checked, M:tG rule set doesn't take up anywhere near the ink and paper as its sister brand (i.e., D&D).
Well, it's very seldom printed out, so there's that. But it is still 200 pages long, with no fluff or card descriptions. http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/t ... 140601.pdf
They have an iOS game that teaches you, step by step, how to play tabletop Magic: the Gathering too, so that's a big plus for ease of learning.
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Post by rapa-nui »

They have an iOS game that teaches you, step by step, how to play tabletop Magic: the Gathering too, so that's a big plus for ease of learning.
What would be the equivalent for D&D? I vaguely remember when 3e was new, they had some kind of flash app on the website that led you through a simple encounter with a pregenerated character.

edit: found it!
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Post by Sakuya Izayoi »

I learned D&D from Shattered Lands.

Well, I didn't learn anything useful about the rules, but I did learn Thri-Kreen are badass, and so are Dragon Kings.
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Post by Eikre »

Sam wrote:Back in 1994, different magic groups had a huge variety of personal house rules, and that all went away once the Pro Tour got big.
The pro tournament was where some pretty egregious rules disputes got worked out or changed for the better. That one guy who got a DQ (later rescinded) for tapping and announcing attackers out of order provoked specific clauses in the text because thousands of people just did it that way and there's not really any gameplay downside for doing it like that.

But that's not how casuals all got on the same page, that only happened when Friday Night Magic went big. Because FNM is an immediately and easily accessible place to find some real games anywhere in the country, and it brings together a lot of people who wouldn't otherwise be hanging at the same lunch tables. That's what really solidified the rules among the casual crowd and continues to do so: an actual upshot to being an interchangeable participant at interchangable events. And it's also where they got market data to institute sweeping rules changes like "Combat damage doesn't go on the stack" to cut back on the gotchas that new players would have otherwise been unknowingly house-ruling because they just thought it worked that way.

Duels of the Planeswalkers has made an enormous difference with the regimentation of new players, and you can (or could have, at least; I don't know about recently) witness this by going to FNM and asking people how many times they've drafted before. And you'd see a funny thing: Almost everyone who told you it was their first time would still play very, very square with the rules, except that they would always want to draw on the first turn. That's a rules idiosyncrasy that used to exist in Duels that is prohibited in the official magic rules. From this observation, two things were clear: One is that Duels was an enormously effective engine for attracting new players and feeding them to the hobby at large. And two, it was teaching them really well, because except for that one delinquency and a couple bugs, Duels is a computer game that always plays in a regimented, crisp, and perfectly consistent manner. It doesn't have the tenancy that nerds do of explaining the rules by talking over each other and going on long incoherent rants with nested exceptions about advanced tactics and rules that you haven't gotten to yet. It presents every turn in fullness, shows you every trade of priority every time, and it holds you to your mistakes so that when you do get to FNM you're not asking for quite so many take-backsies of your magnanimous opponents. In short, it's exact the kind of thing that NEEDS to be available so that interested dorks can hide in their rooms and try to build up confidence through competence instead of surmounting social anxieties at the same time that they're trying to just get a taste of what the fuck a game is even like.


Somebody really does need to get their shit together vis-à-vis an interactive choose-your-own-adventure style example game. On this point, I saw that the ADM isn't very longwinded, but he is very pointed about how it needs to be interactive. I remember when I started playing MTG with Starter 2000, it came with two pre-stacked decks and a booklet that literally just said, step by step, what each player was meant to do this turn. Which it could anticipate, because it knew what card came next in the draw order. It also came with a CD where this very same match was availiable to play against the computer as a tutorial, and as a video tutorial in the style of Bill Nye the Science guy.

Three options on the same example game. This was fifteen years ago.

So, seriously: Write two game sessions with one combat encounter and magic tea party a piece. Set one in Faerun, specifically in the location that the last good videogame took place in (note: license FR to somebody and make a fucking videogame) and set the other in Sharn in Ebberron because that's a fresher and more modernist setting with tophats and goggles and shit.

One of them you're going to let people play from the perspective of the player. You're going to sit them down at a table with three other players wearing stupid hats that make them resemble their characters, plus a shifty-eyed DM behind a screen. He's going to explain who they are and what they're doing and then the view will shift down to the combat grid, where the digital participants set up their little figures and immediately present the player with three choices. It is a choose-your-own-adventure game where the player decides what he wants to do first and then shown how to consult his character sheet and roll the dice to determine how it turned out. It is all deterministic, but the dice rolls different numbers within the range that will make you pass or fail (as necessary) just to give it that organic touch. The thing they did for 3E was actually pretty neat but it really needs skippable dialogue and options that diverge a little more.

The second one you're going to let people play from the perspective of a co-DM. I consider it hugely fucking important because the person going through the trouble of playing your multimedia production is probably going to be the one who was dedicated enough to run the game for his friends. Now all the players are piloted by the computer and the player is assisted by another DM who knows all the rules but can't decide if, for example, it's more appropriate for the Head Cultist to fight to the death or if he is a craven who runs away while his minions stay and cover his escape. But the players are going to be a cunning and challenge the railroading conventions that the person experiencing the presentation has learned from JRPGs; they are going to try breaking through a wall at some point instead of using a door, they are going to try pulling the adamantine door off its hinges to take home as treasure, they are going to send their rogue to pick the guard's pocket for the vault key instead of taking him in a stand-up fight, they are going to try and topple a pillar or cut down a chandelier as a means of attack, and one of them will suggest something totally stupid that wiser minds would have dismissed out of hand. To all of these, the computer DM will urge options that aren't just saying "no," let the human choose one, and then work with them to play it using printed rules as the guideline. Furthermore, she'll chastise one of the players for dicking around on their phone instead of paying attention and saying "so what's happening?" when it's their turn, she'll have a rules dispute about an action one of the players takes and ask them if they would please look up the rule to show her and let somebody else go in the meantime so that the game doesn't slow down, and she'll tell a player who just used an obviously broken combo (using a player option that is mysteriously absent from the printed game) that "okay you can do that THIS turn, but not for the rest of the session, and we'll figure out a good house rule together before next week to preserve game balance."

Hire voice actors and get good takes out of them. Hire some mercenary artists out of the indie game circuit to do something cute. Get a scriptwriter, a real person who muster up something amusing (but probably not really that hilarious) like somebody who wrote for a Joss Whedon show, or one of the guys involved with Portal 2, or even Andrew Hussie if you have the stones for it.

And finally, make expanded print-out copies of both modules, because some real effort should go into them and it would be a shame not to get that into the hands of people who weren't eager to sit through your audiovisual presentation but who need starter material anyway.

My humble opinion.
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Post by Sam »

Oh, I wasn't talking about rules disputes. I mean genuine house rules, like "draw a free card whenever you play a land" or "players start at 50 life" or "graveyards are only for creatures". People had some crazy takes on the game back in the day.

But when the pro tour got started, the tournament rules quickly replaced all of that. 60 card decks, 4 of card limits, etc actually got introduced by the DC, and then accepted by the players, before eventually becoming part of the standard rules. All the wacky stuff wasn't real Magic anymore.

FNM came much later. It was huge for getting people to learn the details (and from the sound of things, so is DOTP), but the reason people started respecting the idea of official rules at all was because of the original major tournaments. People understood that they were supposed to play the game correctly, and they'd tell you that's what they were doing (even if they were actually getting some stuff wrong).
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Post by Eikre »

People love wacky stuff. I've seen a lot of neophytes playing with 50 life, any-time mulligans, or land-dump on turn 1. All things that encourage the construction of the kinds of decks that they want to build; all things that disrupt the format enough that they can hold their own with Timmy cards against a cookie-cutter neckdeck.

And then there's Elder Dragon Highlander, which is its own whole thing.

But now I think we're just spinning our wheels- We're talking about players who are already engaged with the game and playing. Whatever their habits, it doesn't matter if you can't find a way to make those people exist
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