Final Fantasy Eleven FILLS ME WITH THE URGE TO KILL

[Username17]

In ultima it actually gave you their items when you killed them, and the respawn system didn't allow you to constantly harass a guy by spawn camping him. You just killed him, and then it was over, which was cool. You had all his items, and then he had to rebuild and you were richer.

Seriously, you are one of the anti-social assholes who ruined that game for everyone.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1096133369[/unixtime]]
Seriously, you are one of the anti-social assholes who ruined that game for everyone.

The PvP interaction is what made the game.

If it was a straight up single player game, it would have been boring as hell, much like EQ is today.

I fail to see how people who do PvP combat "ruin" a game for someone else. If you don't want a multiplayer game, then don't buy a multiplayer game. If you have more players then you should expect sooner or later one of them is going to try to come into conflict with you. It's only natural if there's a blue team, somebody is going to go out and make a red team to compete with the blue team.

There are dozens upon dozens of single player RPG choices out there, and if someone considers "ruining" the game to be being attacked by other players, then they might as well just buy a single player RPG, it'll have a better story and will allow them to be left to the solitude they so desperately desire.

I just don't get why I'm suddenly "anti-social" because I'm playing a villain character. I'm not deliberately harassing people, I kill them, take their gear and that's the end of it. Unlike EQ, you don't need to camp their corpse for hours before the gear becomes accessible, you just take it like you would in a D&D game, and that becomes the end of that. Maybe they swear vengeance on you and try to pay you back for it later, but that's all cool and actually good for the game because it gives people's characters some purpose.

Half the problem with MMORPGs is having nothing to do, and that's what happens when you've got a blue team and no red team.

Sorry if I happen to be "anti-social" because I enjoy interacting and competing with other players over endlessly bashing simple minded AI monsters at a predefined spawn point.

[Username17]

I fail to see how people who do PvP combat "ruin" a game for someone else.

Because a big part of the game for many people is the facet where you craft shit and build your own little house and basically play The Sims. The fact that you could (and did) run around engaging in "PvP" against people who were busy farming and blacksmithing and shit is what ruined the game.

Because you couldn't successfully do any of the crap you were supposed to do what with all the fvck heads running around stabbing people who bothered to try to do productive things, the game descended into a Mad Max style shoot-fest.

And if I wanted that, I could just play Space Invaders on an Atari 2600. Seriously, if the only purpose of the other players is to sporadically kill your character by jumping you in packs of eight while you're busily collecting nightshade - why not skip the fvcking middle man and just have periodic server outages?

It'll save time.

---

PvP can be fun, if it's organized in some way and actually a test of your skills. People getting into packs and hunting down herbalists is just bullshit.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1096135596[/unixtime]]
Because a big part of the game for many people is the facet where you craft shit and build your own little house and basically play The Sims. The fact that you could (and did) run around engaging in "PvP" against people who were busy farming and blacksmithing and shit is what ruined the game.

But they could just play The Sims if they wanted to do that in peace. If you want to set up your own farm or whatever in an ongoing world of many people you have to expect someone is going to see your farm and try to take it for themselves.

And the game should provide you ways to defend it too, but you should have to defend it. You should be able to hire guards and set traps and stuff to defend your shit. But you should have to defend it.

Because you couldn't successfully do any of the crap you were supposed to do what with all the fvck heads running around stabbing people who bothered to try to do productive things, the game descended into a Mad Max style shoot-fest.

Huh? Productive? Wtf... who says anything is more productive than anything else. The purpose of the game is to have fun. If I have fun with PvP and looting other people's houses then I should be able to try to do that. Doesn't mean I should always succeed, but that should be an option.

Everquest basically left only the "productive" crap in the game, like monster farming and shit, and lemme tell you, it was boring as hell. The other players might as well not even have been there, except as an annoyance later on where you required groups to do anything and had to wait for people to join your party so you could kill more monsters without dying.

And if I wanted that, I could just play Space Invaders on an Atari 2600. Seriously, if the only purpose of the other players is to sporadically kill your character by jumping you in packs of eight while you're busily collecting nightshade - why not skip the fvcking middle man and just have periodic server outages?

See you don't get it. I don't want to play AI opponents. I don't want stupid monsters that act predictably and show up in predefined spots and everything fits neatly in the box. I want to be walking down a nice forest trail and all of a sudden *BAM* a lightning bolt crashes down on my character. I want to be paranoid and I want that rush of adrenaline when I'm playing. You don't get that playing AI opponents, because ultimately a loss just means you reset the game and try again, and that's all EQ was. you play till you die, then you reset and get your body again, and start over... and that sucked hard. No risk at all. Just boring never ending tedium.

PvP can be fun, if it's organized in some way and actually a test of your skills. People getting into packs and hunting down herbalists is just bullshit.

Right organization is good. And what you need then is people who hunt those guys who hunt herbalists, that's what makes the game fun.

Ultima online certainly needed a lot of refinements to get it right, but it was on the right track. Where as no amount of changes is going to make EQ a fun game. Because the whole concept of a game based around spawn camping just blows.

It'd be cool if herbalists have some kind of bat signal they could send out and alert people that they're being attacked, then you might get helpful people teleporting in to aid them.

That's fun and makes the game more interesting.

See you need some easy way to make money like herbalism, then that in turn attracts people who want to rob the herbalists. Though the herbalists should also have some kind of way to contact people who can protect them. The one flaw UO had was that it had little way for people to call for help. If they added that feature, then the game would have improved immensely.

So you have the villager, villain, hero archetypes and all of them are playable by a PC. The villagers are the honest people who want to make a living crafting stuff and building their own farms, the villains are the guys looking for easy money by pillaging the villagers, and the heroes are the guys who save the villagers and take a lot of the gear the villains stole.

That's how real RPGs work and that's what MMORPGs should be about.

[Username17]

But they could just play The Sims if they wanted to do that in peace. If you want to set up your own farm or whatever in an ongoing world of many people you have to expect someone is going to see your farm and try to take it for themselves.

1. The Sims didn't yet exist.
2. In the real world, no I don't.

This whole argument - where you want to be a petulant fvcktard and get away with it, is completely ricoculous. You've got nothing to stand on. You aren't "competing" with other people, because they aren't competing with you.

It's one thing to go into a battle zone in DAoC and snipe people - that's what people signed up for so your cheap ass tactics are just plain good game play. But just wandering around peoples' house building game kicking over snad castles is just being a little shit.

It would be one thing if you could do that sort of thing and the game supported forensic evidence somehow and there was a police force that people could join in order to track your marrauding ass down and hang it from a tree - but there wasn't. It was just wandering around being a cyber cock with no consequences.

That's not "realistic", that's not "clever", that's not even a challenge - that's just you being a dick to other people while being safe guarded from the ass beating you so richly deserve by the annonymous nature of the internet. Such a set-up is no better and no different from the "game" where you all make new email accounts and use them to spam the hell out of message boards where people are trying to have productive conversations.

Yes, you should feel ashamed of yourself, because you behaved horribly, and are personally one of the reasons that the internet isn't nearly as friendly and useful as it should be. You're a god damned net troll and I hope you got ass rot out of the deal.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1096136969[/unixtime]]
This whole argument - where you want to be a petulant fvcktard and get away with it, is completely ricoculous. You've got nothing to stand on. You aren't "competing" with other people, because they aren't competing with you.

Sure they are. They're playing the same game as I am therefore they're potential competetion. They're trying to make more gold and amass more wealth than me. That's a form of competetion. Whether I decide to outblacksmith them or burn their smithy to the ground however, is up to me. The MMORPG allows me to do both so it's my choice. If they fail to defend thier smithy well, it might just be easier for me to burn it to the ground and kill them.

It's one thing to go into a battle zone in DAoC and snipe people - that's what people signed up for so your cheap ass tactics are just plain good game play. But just wandering around peoples' house building game kicking over snad castles is just being a little shit.

Why? They know I can do that stuff, and they should have known that when they signed on, so what's the difference?

I'm not exploiting a game bug or anything, I'm just attacking them within the limits of the game and that's cool. You're trying to portray me as some kind of cheater or something, and that's just not true.

People should know what they're getting into when they make their smithy, just like the guy playing Sim City should know that a fire can start in his city and burn it down.

It would be one thing if you could do that sort of thing and the game supported forensic evidence somehow and there was a police force that people could join in order to track your marrauding ass down and hang it from a tree - but there wasn't. It was just wandering around being a cyber cock with no consequences.

Well actually they could see the guy's name that killed them and you became labeled as a murderer (your name turned red) so everyone could see it. So there were consequences. And there was a tracking skill that could find people in the area by name. So if you pissed enough people off they would go hunting your ass down. It actually happened to me a couple times.

There were plenty of penalties for PKing people, so that statement is false.

Yes, you should feel ashamed of yourself, because you behaved horribly, and are personally one of the reasons that the internet isn't nearly as friendly and useful as it should be. You're a god damned net troll and I hope you got ass rot out of the deal.

Yeah, I'm such a bad person for killing people's online characters... I'm definitely going to hell for all those hours I logged on Quake 3 for sure.

[Username17]

Yeah, I'm such a bad person for killing people's online characters... I'm definitely going to hell for all those hours I logged on Quake 3 for sure.

Not the same thing, and you are only digging yourself deeper by claiming not to understand the difference. In UT or Quake, people come to get shot and to shoot other people. That's the game, and people are in on it from the get go.

But a MMORPG is different. People are there to grow their characters, and it is only ethical to kill those characters if they tacitly or openly agree to it. Such as by entering a battle zone (which is like unto logging on to a Halo server), or by accepting a challenge (which is like unto pressing start on a Mortal Kombat machine).

If you don't have that kind of cooperation from the people whose sand castles you are kicking over - you're the asshole. Period.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1096138622[/unixtime]]
But a MMORPG is different. People are there to grow their characters, and it is only ethical to kill those characters if they tacitly or openly agree to it. Such as by entering a battle zone (which is like unto logging on to a Halo server), or by accepting a challenge (which is like unto pressing start on a Mortal Kombat machine).

No, not quite. The entire world is a battlezone. You could potentially be attacked at any time. Simply because most of the time it's safe doesn't mean that it's not ethical to attack someone without warning. Some newbies who log onto a quake game don't want to be attacked and just want to explore the level while everyone else ignores them. And the farming dillema is much the same.

I would say once you log onto a MMORPG that allows Player killing, you have accepted the risks associated with that. You've accepted that you could be attacked at any time, anywhere the game allows it. The game may have safe zones or what not, but anywhere outside of those you should have to accept that PvP may happen to you, and you're agreeing to get PKed when you first click that icon to start the game.

The problem is when you get these whiny bitches complaining because the risks are biting them in the ass. They may not like getting killed anymore than I don't like the cheesy quake player sniping me across the level with a rail gun, but I knew that was a part of the game when I signed on, and I have to accept that. So should they.

I'm not cheating by killing them, I'm doing what the game lets me do. If they dont' like it, then tough... it's part of the game every bit as much as mining is. Just because my profits come from killing PCs instead of mining imaginary ore or killing NPCs. There aren't any moral issues here, and killing miners is no more anti-social than sitting in a corner mining alone, it's just a lot more exciting.

If you consider that "ruining the game", then you chose the wrong game, because the rules clearly allow what I'm doing, and not by any kind of bug or lack of foresight either. It's the way the game was designed.

[Joy_Division]

It's most definately not the case that when you log on you're accepting all the "risks".

They want to do what you want to do. Do what the game lets them do.
By going around and killing people at random you're forcing them to play the game you want to play, not the one they want to play. It's no big deal for you because you get what you want.

I've heard the argument that you could just come and kill whoever was killing you so many times and it's so tiring. For one you couldn't hire people to do anything about it they could just take your money and bug off since you had no power over them.

When you're making someone play the game you want to it makes you like the kid in kindergarten who bullied all the other kids into playing GI Joe with you. You're having fun they're not. The problem is for this game you're all paying the same $10 a month to play how you want but some people aren't getting that.

Don't get me wrong I think games like EQ are lame as fuck. But UO was unplayable with the amount of jerks who could just annoy people with impunity. I mean every attempt they made at allowing the players to police themselves utterly failed, sad but true.

[RandomCasualty]

1096148233[/unixtime]]
By going around and killing people at random you're forcing them to play the game you want to play, not the one they want to play. It's no big deal for you because you get what you want.

Well, the thing is that nobody is going to get the perfect 100% game they want to play. At least not out of a MMORPG.

The real question is "is it the game you bought". It's one thing to start out with a game like the Sims and then add PvP. That's certain to get people pissed off and rightly so. PvP was never part of the equation and suddenyl it's there. You bought the game not expecting to get jumped by PKers.

Ultima online, PvP was always a pretty big highlight of the game. In fact when I first got it before I even played at all, I expected to get PKed quite a bit. That's the kind of game I was expecting to buy. When I bought EQ I didn't expect that stuff to happen. ANd this is all because of how the game was represented.

But UO was unplayable with the amount of jerks who could just annoy people with impunity. I mean every attempt they made at allowing the players to police themselves utterly failed, sad but true.

I never found it unplayable. It was one of the few MMORPGs where you could have a good character after about 5 hours of play and be able to be reasonably competetive.

As for players policing themselves, that just shows a fault in humanity, I think. If nobody wants to play a hero or a bounty hunter, what does that tell you?

The main mechanic problem it had was those peice of shit characters who werent' PKers standing around a PKing character healing them and shit, and you couldn't attack them without also being a PK yourself, that was what was broke if anything, but the basic PK system was fine.

[Username17]

As for players policing themselves, that just shows a fault in humanity, I think. If nobody wants to play a hero or a bounty hunter, what does that tell you?

It tells you that the systems they had to attempt to make that sort of thing work utterly failed. Heck, people who actually did go out and hunt the bad guys got the same red on their name that the bad guys did - so the only way you could even attempt to police anything was by hearsay. The system was utterly broken, and that's why the Sims Online is going strong and Ultima Online folded.

Because people like you were total unrepentant cocks about the whole thing.

-Username17

[Joy_Division]

I find it much more telling that otherwise moral people will prey upon each other as soon as there is no longer any negative consequences for doing so and even justify themselves in their own minds.

[RandomCasualty]

1096151822[/unixtime]]
It tells you that the systems they had to attempt to make that sort of thing work utterly failed. Heck, people who actually did go out and hunt the bad guys got the same red on their name that the bad guys did - so the only way you could even attempt to police anything was by hearsay. The system was utterly broken, and that's why the Sims Online is going strong and Ultima Online folded.

Actually no, you could kill a guy with a red name and it would actually help your alignment, not hurt it. It was why being a PK kinda sucked, because anybody could take a shot at you and not actually get PK status themselves.

As for why UO folded, I think that was probably more because they tried to change their image. They didn't want to be the PK game anymore and tried to become mroe like everquest. Unfortunately this chased away all their customers and people with established EQ characters didn't bother switching.

Back in the early days UO had a clear audience of people who liked it. The "unrepentant cocks" such as myself who didn't want to spend 500 hours of play just so I could later band together with some PCs so I could fight something more powerful than a sewer rat.

Then they wanted it to take a year and a day to advance your characters skills and limit the PKing and try to make it into a shitty EQ clone. and that didn't work.

I find it much more telling that otherwise moral people will prey upon each other as soon as there is no longer any negative consequences for doing so and even justify themselves in their own minds.

Everyone has some sadistic tendencies at heart, whether we let them out by kicking the crap out of a punching bag, saying nasty and hurtful comments to people or pushing our younger brother off a cliff, we eventually do let them out in some way.

I mean I think the majority of people deserve some credit for not actually taking their frustrations out in real life. Killing imaginary characters is nothing compared to stuff like Columbine.

[Joy_Division]

Guess what. What happened to you when you were playing EQ is the same thing that people felt when you were PKing them. You weren't playing the game you wanted to it was frustrating and boring. You can dress it up anyway you like but the despicable thing is that you can't own up to the fact that you got your kicks by hurting other people. You knew there was no real way they could get back at you through the game and that influenced your behaviour and that of many others. Let me guess you quit UO way before all those lousty newbs could hide in trammel.

[RandomCasualty]

1096159513[/unixtime]]Guess what. What happened to you when you were playing EQ is the same thing that people felt when you were PKing them. You weren't playing the game you wanted to it was frustrating and boring.

well it wasn't really the same thing. In EQ, I wasn't really frustrated, I was just incredibly bored and was left wondering why I'm paying them to play and not the other way around.

With UO I tend to think they were more pissed at me for killing them as opposed to disliking the game as a whole.

You can dress it up anyway you like but the despicable thing is that you can't own up to the fact that you got your kicks by hurting other people. You knew there was no real way they could get back at you through the game and that influenced your behaviour and that of many others.

Oh, I did get kicks by hurting them, I admit it. I'm just saying that's not necessarily wrong. I enjoy blowing people up in a shooter game too. I don't see why it's immoral for me to do so.

And on a couple occasions they did track my character down and kill him, and that's part of the game. And sometimes other PKs would take me out, and that's part of the game too.

Let me guess you quit UO way before all those lousty newbs could hide in trammel.

Yep.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

1096118590[/unixtime]]

1096097263[/unixtime]]
This statement proves that you have never set foot on any of the PvP servers on everquest.

I have before, and I didn't experience any of the things you're talking about.

Then shut the fvck up.

I left the PvP sever in everquest simply because a larg group of stupid assholes decided they were goi9ng to own the game.

The guild's name is Pandemonium.

Not being satisfied with ruling the highest level zones, and prventing any other guild from setting foot anywhere in the upper planes, they decided to all make low level characters, outfit them with gear to make them more or less invincible, and go ruin the low level people's fun too.

To give you an exampel, at level 8 you can start PvP, before then you're off limits. Also, you can only PvP with people within 6 levels of you.

So, they would level themselve to level 14, and destroy all the lowbies in the low level zones.

To give another example, there is an item called the Fungi Tunic. It makes you regenerate at 15 hp ever 6 seconds.

At level 8, your melee damage is capped at 12, and at 10 you get it raised to 15. At level 15 or so, it gets upped again to 29.

In PvP, they halved all damage to players.

you're doing about 1-5 damage to the fungi wearers, they're healing 15. Even at 22, the highest you can PvP with them, you can only do about 14 or so.

If you are in their zone, they will hunt you down and kill you. If you come back, they'll pull monsters to you so you lose Exp. (If a player kills you, you just lose money. If a npc monster kills you, you lose a large chunk of experience.)

They will do this until you log, or until you leave.

Thay CAN take your money, but they usually don't. They are simply there to make sure no one but their friends gets to get past level 8.

You might fidn PvP boring on everquest. However, just because you were lucky enough to either have frined in Pande, or play before there were actually other people on the PvP servers does NOT mean PvP isn't prevalent, constant, and probably cost Sony a lot of money than the worthless little assfvcks like you who enjoy ruining other people's fun and laughing about it bring to the company.

[RandomCasualty]

PvP on EQ exists solely because you want to be a dick. I mean that's about the only reason it's there.

And the level power curve on EQ pretty much ensures that you can twink yourself out and get some high level guy healing and buffing you and you're completely safe from any repercussions.

I didn't experience it, but I can say that if a group did want to become dedicated PKers on low level characters, they really could. Especially given that EQ is based around camping spawn points, which makes the PKs job pitifully easy.

In UO unless your character was a total newbie, you always had a chance to kill PKers, because the system inherently made your character mortal. As I said before 2-3 lightning bolts would kill anybody. So if you got the drop on them you were generally ok.

In EQ, because of the scaling hit point system, PKing just isn't very fun, because you've got a definite winner in most battles as opposed to it being a coin toss the majority of the time. You only needed to log about 20 hours on UO to compete with the best of em, and that made a big difference playwise.

You could afford to get jumped by people and not care as much because you had a chance of taking them down too.

I can see getting pissed off in EQ about PvP though, because they really are doing it just to be dicks.

[Lago_AM3P]

Sharkey said it best, though, during his review of the game Cadash.

The first thing you'll probably notice about Cadash is that when you turn on the machine (or more likely, load the rom) is a screen saying "Communication Mode: Standing Alone". Originally there could be up to four (I think) Cadash machines linked together with each player playing the game simultaneously on their own screen. I remember when I was a kid looking at this and thinking how cool it would be if there were some way of playing a great big multiplayer rpg like this with people all over the world via the internet instead of just those four cabinets. I think we've all since learned better. That sort of thing is as exciting as camping out waiting for a Sharp Nosed Cave Wight to respawn so you can kill it and hopefully obtain a rare Captain EO Glove (to sell on EBay to the other freaks who quit their jobs so they could play the game more.) My excuse now is that I was young, naive, and probably high. I couldn't very well realize that Massive Multiplayer RPGs were a bad idea a bit less than a decade before they were invented. I really don't know what Squaresoft's excuse is, though. Korp Por.

[Tae_Kwon_Dan]

1096161162[/unixtime]]

Oh, I did get kicks by hurting them, I admit it. I'm just saying that's not necessarily wrong. I enjoy blowing people up in a shooter game too. I don't see why it's immoral for me to do so.

Because that's the FUCKING game and I honestly believe that you're willfully playing hide my head in the sand about this, because you don't want to admit you were wrong and a gigantic Gabe and Tycho level cockmonger.
EXAMPLE


By your rules it's okay for me to step up to a Tekken machine and tell the 13 year old that I get to punch him in the arm each time he loses a match, because it's more fun for me. He wants to come in and play kung-fu warrior, but I in my dicketry decide to make it more personal. That is not playing the game as intended and no amount of hand waving or semantics are going to make what you did in UO not being an asshole. Embrace the title or forfeit the debate, but you don't get option 3 on this one.

[Joy_Division]

Well he did say that you could kill with the lightning bolt spell. That only worked within the first 6 months of release. Back then PKing was balanced through ignorance. Basically most people hadn't figured out how profitable and easy it was. The people PKing were being assholes but they were just killing you. Later it got much worse with people trying to find every hole in the systems erected to make them stop killing people and getting away with it scot free.

[fbmf]

I was away for the weekend, so I apologize for letting this go on as long as it did.

At any rate, I think we're done here.

[/The Great Fence Builder Speaks]