After 18 Years, Feng Shui Second Edition is happening.

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Lago PARANOIA
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After 18 Years, Feng Shui Second Edition is happening.

Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Relevant Kickstarter link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/at ... e-by-robin

Eunuch sorcerers. Slick conspirators. Cyborg apes. Control freak monks. Armed with the secrets of Feng Shui, all aim to conquer the past, present, and future. Only you have the guts, guns, and flying feet to stop them!

It’s back in all its explodey, chi-blasting glory: Feng Shui, the classic game of Hong Kong-inspired cinematic action, refurbished with a fresh bag of ammo for a new roleplaying generation! Original designer Robin D. Laws rushes your way on a bullet-riddled gurney to serve up the thrills fans remember, furiouser and faster than ever.
  • Choose between a wide array of action flick archetypes. Be an icy-cool killer, a determined martial artist, a maverick cop, a crusty old master, a clanking cyborg, a highway ronin, or a melancholy ghost.
  • Fight with free-flowing bravura! Lay low mooks, foes and bosses with guns, fu, magic, monster powers or the genetic mutations of a blasted future. Deploy smarts and skill to find your next fight!
    Bolster your abilities by capturing special sites of power, the key to the chi war that secretly commands history’s course.
  • Journey through time portals from contemporary Hong Kong to the Tang Dynasty, from the rebellion-soaked Opium Wars era to scorched, post-apocalyptic roadways.
  • Loaded with Game Moderator advice, easier to run than ever, and including a fully fleshed out, mayhem-rich introductory adventure, Feng Shui 2 is more than ready for you. Are you ready for it?
[/i]
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

I notice there's no mention of an improved advancement system.
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Josh_Kablack
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Playtester Review

Also says nothing about advancement, the preponderance of AV vs Stat attacks in Sorcery or my other mechanical concerns.

Edit:
Robin D Laws on G+ wrote: Robin Laws
Shared publicly - 9:47 AM
#fengshui2


I’ll be chatting about #fengshui2 (and anything else) with Cam Banks in tow, 9 pm EDT tonight. Go to http://bit.ly/1AUGnsU select your nick, log in and type "/join #rpgnet".
Sadly, I have a real job, where I have to work on Friday nights, but someone else could log in and ask him directly.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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silva
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Post by silva »

I heard Cam Banks is a co-author. If that's true, I'll be watching this closely, the guy designed some very neat games (like Marvel Heroic Roleplaying) and have my respect.

Thanks for the heads up, Lago.
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
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Post by Mistborn »

Whelp sliva is looking forward to it, that's never a good sign.
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silva
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Post by silva »

Took a better look at the KS page and got definitely hooked. Very evocative premise with seemingly fast flowing and theme-apropriate rules. I'm in.
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Well Feng Shui has always been about attitude. Back in the day it was kinda revolutionary for showing how much tone mattered in communicating the style and intention of a game.

So it's not surprising that it appeals to silva. The thing is, the first edition also had rules systems that held up pretty well and served to enforce the genre -- and those are the things that matter to me.

I'm still reserving judgement until I see whether Mr Laws patched the most problematic rules. The wink to the 1e playtest in the art is nice, and streamlining stats is promising, but I'm really not sue this game needed a classsplosion.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Post by Red_Rob »

I mentioned some issues I had with Feng Shui in Dragonchilds Highwinds thread:
I wrote:1: Combat vs Noncombat balance is borked
Firstly, Feng Shui is a game focused around combat. Even Robin Laws in a recent podcast referred to it as "A game about fights with some fairly flimsy transitions between fight scenes". It follows that allowing newbies to trade away combat power for flavour abilities is not kosher in a game in which fighting enemies is the preferred way to solve your problems. To this end, having players able to choose to allocate skill points to either Guns or Info:Basketweaving is just bad. Similarly, having Initiative, Toughness and Intelligence come from the same pool is just going to lead to people being unable to contribute for half the session because they allocated their stat points badly. Class balance is already bad enough in this game without this shit.

Ideally, in a game about action heroes I'd like to see each Archetype given a way to contribute in combat and something they can bring to the table out of combat. Now, Feng Shui is pretty blatant that noncombat abilities can go suck a dick (Read the section about the GM allowing any skill roll that would actually help move the plot along to pass regardless of how many points the player invested for an example of this), but ideally if your Soldier is also a survival expert and tracker whilst your Killer is a smooth talking ladies man they can at least take part in the legwork phase of the adventure where you find out where the bad guys are before the shooting starts.

So firstly you are going to want to divide stat and skill allocations into Combat and Noncombat and go from there. You've gone the right way by levelling out the combat skill AV's and ensuring every archetype gets some Schticks, but as long as you are letting people choose to allocate stat and skill points to combat and noncombat abilities you are going to see problems. You really need to make clear the resources that are contributing to combat power and those that aren't. Telling certain archetypes they can allocate X points to Toughness, Speed or Focus for example is much easier to balance than letting them stick these points in Fortune or Charisma. However now we are getting onto my second point:

2: Skills figured from stats doesn't work
This is the major structural issue with the game as I see it. Basically Feng Shui is a 2D6 system, which means in normal circumstances the RNG is 11 points long (Yes, yes, exploding dice. If you are relying on an exploding result you are basically off the RNG anyway). In such a system a +1 or -1 is a big deal, and once you get to +/-3 you have swung the result almost 40% in your favour in most cases. So it follows you need to be very careful to keep players on a tight range of possible numbers (in this case AV). Feng Shui doesn't do this, and in fact exacerbates the problem by having stats start at 5 but final AV's go up to 15.

The difference between a player with 14 or 15 in a skill and someone with a stat of 6 or 7 that put a couple of skill picks into it is massive. Essentially you either have a skill within 1-2 points of the highest rating or you don't have that skill in any meaningful way. It really doesn't matter what value your skill starts at, only your final AV, so starting skills at your stat value just makes for a load of pointless accounting during chargen to get to a result that is already pre-set. Allowing players to buy skills up to less than 10 creates newbie traps and opportunities for butthurt at the table when people find out how useless these skills are. Starting skill values equal to the relevant stat also makes it arbitrarily hard for certain archetypes to access certain noncombat skills. This would be fine in a game focussed on noncombat roles - but we already determined that these skills essentially don't matter and are flavour anyway.

This leads to the related problem of skill defaulting. Any skill you don't have defaults to your attribute (according to the book with a -3 on top just for lulz). This means that you are easily looking at a 7-8 point swing in AV between a skill you have and one you don't, which is "Fuck Off" difference in a 2D6 system. It also raises some problems when you try to do something not covered by a skill, as most characters stat values are so low compared to their skills that this is a death knell for the attempt if the GM uses anything like the recommended difficulty ratings. For a game with such a limited skill list this seems like it would cause real problems in game if it weren't for the previous assertion that noncombat skills don't matter and auto-succeed if in any way important anyway.
I hear the 2nd edition gets rid of substats so I'm interested to see if AV's are still built up from stats at all.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Red_Rob wrote:2: Skills figured from stats doesn't work
This is the major structural issue with the game as I see it. Basically Feng Shui is a 2D6 system, which means in normal circumstances the RNG is 11 points long (Yes, yes, exploding dice. If you are relying on an exploding result you are basically off the RNG anyway). In such a system a +1 or -1 is a big deal, and once you get to +/-3 you have swung the result almost 40% in your favour in most cases. So it follows you need to be very careful to keep players on a tight range of possible numbers (in this case AV). Feng Shui doesn't do this, and in fact exacerbates the problem by having stats start at 5 but final AV's go up to 15.
Your analysis is correct in the abstract, but you are overstating many problems as they showed up in the actual system:

Double checking my 1e book and it looks like only the Everyman Hero, Techie and Transformed Animal start out with primary combat AVs which are not fixed. Now those three are all expected to allocate stats and bonuses in a way that brings them up to their max of 13 for starting combat AV, and you're absolutely right that the book shouldn't allow them the trap option of not doing that.

And of the archetypes with fixed primary combat AVs, only the Big Bruiser (12) and Old Master (16) are outside the 13-15 range, but they try to balance those out with extreme durability and extreme fragility.

You're also narrowing the RNG jut a bit too much. The exploding dice mean that each die averages out to 4.2, not merely 3, but that's minor compared to the bigger point is that a lot of the fighting in the game will be against unnamed opponents. These mooks will be opposing you at a difficulty of 8. Thus if you can bring your primary AV of 13 to 15 to bear it's an exercise in not rolling notably below average, but if for some reason you can't use your primary AV you can still win such a fight with a lower secondary combat AV and even plausibly hold them off until help arrives using one of those stat-based defaults.

It also raises some problems when you try to do something not covered by a skill, as most characters stat values are so low compared to their skills that this is a death knell for the attempt if the GM uses anything like the recommended difficulty ratings. For a game with such a limited skill list this seems like it would cause real problems
Okay, while you raised a valid point about skill defaults being overly harsh, this part of your rant confuses me. In Feng Shui, the list of skills is short, but they are very broad in application --- pretty much whatever it is, there is a skill roll for that. And the more skills you add to the skill list in a game, the less likely that is to happen, as each individual skill becomes narrower in application. Also, even in cases where such a skill is available, as skill lists get longer, it becomes less and less likely that any of the PCs will have a relevant skill for any narrow task.

Thus in Feng Shui, horse-riding and piloting a hovercraft both use the same Driving skill that you use in car chases -- the penalties for J mods and unfamiliarity may be too harsh for the limited RNG, but the roll is in all cases based on your Driving AV, and at no point will you need to default to your Agility stat to compute a new AV. Also, no matter what kind of crazy new vehicle (starcruisers, teleportation pods), or beast of burden(fury beetles, narwhal jousting) you come across your Driving skill already covers it.

Contrast with say HERO, where you first buy multiple Transport Familiarities and then have to buy Combat Driving, Combat Piloting and Riding. In that case, you are extremely likely to come across a task for which there is not a narrow-application skill defined in the system and extremely likely to come across a task for which none of the PCs have the narrowly defined skill. Thus you are more likely to need to default off of your attribute.

Heck, I don't actually see any rules for rolling attribute checks for "things not covered by a skill". Maybe I'm missing them on my skim-through, but for right now it looks like that part of your complaint is not about the actual rules.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Post by Red_Rob »

Josh_Kablack wrote:Double checking my 1e book and it looks like only the Everyman Hero, Techie and Transformed Animal start out with primary combat AVs which are not fixed.
When I referred to problems with skills figured from stats I was actually referring to all the skills, not just combat skills. In fact Combat skills largely sidestep this issue as you have pointed out by simply assigning a flat value. I'm saying more skills should work like that rather than going through the motions of buying up from 5 or 6 to an actually useable value.
Okay, while you raised a valid point about skill defaults being overly harsh, this part of your rant confuses me. In Feng Shui, the list of skills is short, but they are very broad in application --- pretty much whatever it is, there is a skill roll for that. And the more skills you add to the skill list in a game, the less likely that is to happen, as each individual skill becomes narrower in application. Also, even in cases where such a skill is available, as skill lists get longer, it becomes less and less likely that any of the PCs will have a relevant skill for any narrow task.
I agree that more and narrower skills means more chance you won't have the right skill. My point was that with a smaller absolute skill list there is a higher chance that something the players try won't really fit into one of the skills, and therefore that the GM will decide they are "off skill" and need to default.
Josh_Kablack wrote:Heck, I don't actually see any rules for rolling attribute checks for "things not covered by a skill". Maybe I'm missing them on my skim-through, but for right now it looks like that part of your complaint is not about the actual rules.
To be fair whether you are using a skill you don't have or doing something where no skill would apply, defaulting to stat-3 is pretty ridiculous.

I just don't see how the disparity between the average values of stats and skills can really be resolved. 13 is considered below par for a skill but 8 is considered high for a stat. That essentially means that they are operating on two different scales, which leads to some weird consequences. Someone with high Reflexes is no good at acrobatics unless they have a ton of points in the skill. If guess my feeling is if you are going to go with that level of disconnect I just don't see what you get from figuring skills from the stats in the first place.
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