Inverting roll-under percentile systems?

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Lev Lafayette
NPC
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:03 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Post by Lev Lafayette »

FrankTrollman wrote:Every time you attempt to derail the conversation into the minutiae of skill increases that aren't part of the actual skill rolls that are actually under contention, you continue to prove what a dishonest shit stain you are. Stop it.
OK Frank. Congratulations. I'm out.

I will no longer contribute to any further discussions on this forum.

A feature of discourse ethics is that a person actually has the motivation to engage in a dispassionate evaluation of another person's point of view in order to reach mutual understanding.

I do not think you have that interest. I think you are an example of a toxic person, someone who is actually destructive to this hobby. Communicating with you is not a good use of time.

But you don't have to be that way. You don't have to be "that guy". You can change.

But until then, I bid you best wishes and hope that you can find it within yourself to try to improve as a person.
GâtFromKI
Knight-Baron
Posts: 513
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:14 am

Post by GâtFromKI »

Lev Lafayette wrote:A feature of discourse ethics is that a person actually has the motivation to engage in a dispassionate evaluation of another person's point of view in order to reach mutual understanding.
A feature of discourse ethics is that both person are discussing about the same thing. It is a key feature actually: people may be passionate and not try to reach mutual understanding, something can rise as long as they are discussing the same thing.

But you're not doing that: people are talking to you, and you're discussing alone about something else.


Anyway, you're young, you're a candidate PhD, and you think you're the king of the world because you're a candidate PhD. I guess you will discover the real world soon, that a PhD doesn't make you exceptional in any way, having a PhD in sociology doesn't qualify make your opinion interesting in any other in other fields than what you've studied, and many person without PhD are more skilled than you.
User avatar
Mistborn
Duke
Posts: 1477
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:55 pm
Location: Elendel, Scadrial

Post by Mistborn »

Lev Lafayette wrote:I do not think you have that interest. I think you are an example of a toxic person, someone who is actually destructive to this hobby.
Ok, no. The person who is being toxic to the hobby is you. The fact that you pretty much instantly launched into a denial in depth rather than attempting to argue honestly is far more toxic and insulting that anything Frank has said.
rampaging-poet
Knight
Posts: 473
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:18 am

Post by rampaging-poet »

Also, if you only get "experience rolls" when the GM says you do anyway, it's easy to replace the entire concept with a more honest and straightforward rule: telling the GM to just hand out free skill points whenever he feels they're appropriate. This has several advantages over experience rolls as I understand them. First, there's explicitly no incentive to make extraneous rolls that don't matter because rolls aren't directly coupled to advancement. Second, it removes the backward skill-up probabilities where high-skill characters are more likely to improve because you can only improve if you succeed. Third, it is completely up front about being a magic tea party extra bonus instead of an actual system for determining advancement.

Generally when a rule produces worse results that "just making it up" it's a bad rule. Calling people bad players for trying to follow those rules doesn't make the rule any better. The solution to people using bad rules isn't to blame the players for following them, it's to replace them with a better rule.
DSMatticus wrote:I sort my leisure activities into a neat and manageable categorized hierarchy, then ignore it and dick around on the internet.
My deviantArt account, in case anyone cares.
Harshax
Knight
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:12 pm
Location: Chicago, USA

Post by Harshax »

rampaging-poet wrote:Also, if you only get "experience rolls" when the GM says you do anyway, it's easy to replace the entire concept with a more honest and straightforward rule: telling the GM to just hand out free skill points whenever he feels they're appropriate.
More or less how RQ6 works and the mechanic is far more transparent. MC determines the rate at which the PCs should advance in competency and hands out X number of Development rolls at appropriate intervals during the campaign. All characters get the same number of Development rolls, with PCs with high Charisma getting a bonus (like one).

There is not an explicit tie, ES-style, to only improving what you use. You can use these points toward improving your Strength or Constitution, learning new skills, improving existing ones, or even other things like binding spirits (Shamanism).

Skill improvements are similar to how they've worked in the past. You try to roll over your skill and if successful increase it by 1d4+1. If unsuccessful, the skill increases by 1.

Additionally, all fumbled skill checks since the last Development phase get a free +1% increase. Multiple Fumbles don't get stack.


Back to OP
I don't see a big win on flipping to Skill+d100 and roll over. Admittedly, I have not given the issue as much thought as some on this board. I've played a bunch of skill percentage games and stolen a couple rules from a few sources to make some calculations easier.

When crits are a percentage of your overal skill, I go with a magic number in the 1's die. In HarnMaster, for example, crits happened 20% of the time. So the magic numbers were 0 and 5. In RQ6, Crits happen at 1/10th your skill. So if the result is less than or equal to the value of your Skill's 10's digit, you crit - No Math.

Skills over 100%. Drop the hundreth value and grant an automatic degree of success for each 100% dropped. So a guy with 70% versus someone with 170% are both trying to roll under 70%, but the the second characters gets a free degree of success.

Difficulty grades. - I haven't tried this, but I have been thinking about it a bit. RQ6 suggests that extremely difficult tasks should reduce skills by a percentage. For example, a Hard task should reduce your skill by a third. I don't like this at all and am thinking of replacing the idea with something from HeroQuest -

When a task has a difficulty greater than "Standard", the Skill check becomes an opposed roll as if there was an autonomous agent working against you.

Code: Select all

Average Task        Standard Roll
Tough Task          Opposed Roll vs. 25%
Challenging Task    Opposed Roll vs. 50%
Formidable Task     Opposed Roll vs. 75%
Heroic Task         Opposed Roll vs. 125%
This feels like a good idea, but then doesn't actually help if the contest is already an opposed roll, such as combat. The optional rule in RQ6, is to use simplified penalties to Skill for each degree of difficulty, so a Hard Task would be -20% to your skill. Subtracting from the 10's value of your Skill to reflect difficult seems pretty simple.
Last edited by Harshax on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
TheFlatline
Prince
Posts: 2606
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:43 pm

Post by TheFlatline »

DH gives a flat modifier of -40% to +30%, so a roll-over system doesn't require multiplying your skill by some fraction.

In my gaming group, calculating a target number is sticky for some reason. However, everyone knows D20 and has used it for years. So running with a D20 style paradigm of "skill plus modifiers plus roll beats DC you get a success" is more intuitive with my group. My question was, is the DC going to be 100 all the time. If yes, then the hack works with almost zero changes (weapon jams and critical failures occur 1-10 instead of 91-100 and crits happen on 95-100 instead of 1-5.).
Harshax
Knight
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:12 pm
Location: Chicago, USA

Post by Harshax »

TheFlatline wrote:My question was, is the DC going to be 100 all the time. If yes, then the hack works with almost zero changes (weapon jams and critical failures occur 1-10 instead of 91-100 and crits happen on 95-100 instead of 1-5.).
Mathematically, yes. The Standard check would be 100, and to extend the example using d20 DC's:

Code: Select all

Very Easy               Don't Roll
Easy                    50
Average                 100
Tough                   125
Challenging             150
Formidable              175
Heroic                  200
Nearly Impossible       250
Last edited by Harshax on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rampaging-poet
Knight
Posts: 473
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:18 am

Post by rampaging-poet »

Harshax wrote:
rampaging-poet wrote:Also, if you only get "experience rolls" when the GM says you do anyway, it's easy to replace the entire concept with a more honest and straightforward rule: telling the GM to just hand out free skill points whenever he feels they're appropriate.
More or less how RQ6 works and the mechanic is far more transparent. MC determines the rate at which the PCs should advance in competency and hands out X number of Development rolls at appropriate intervals during the campaign. All characters get the same number of Development rolls, with PCs with high Charisma getting a bonus (like one).

There is not an explicit tie, ES-style, to only improving what you use. You can use these points toward improving your Strength or Constitution, learning new skills, improving existing ones, or even other things like binding spirits (Shamanism).

Skill improvements are similar to how they've worked in the past. You try to roll over your skill and if successful increase it by 1d4+1. If unsuccessful, the skill increases by 1.

Additionally, all fumbled skill checks since the last Development phase get a free +1% increase. Multiple Fumbles don't get stack.
Ok, so the amount of skill advancement is essentially random with a minimum of +1% and higher skill gains for lower skill characters. I don't actually have any of the books, and the way people were talking about it lead me to believe you had to roll under to increase your skills (because you only increased them when you succeeded at a task and you roll under to succeed).

Those rules still encourage you to try skills you suck at when the consequences for failure are low though. If every fumbled skill periodically gets +1%, characters are encouraged to fail miserably at a diverse range of tasks as often as possible for maximum skill growth. Also, you actually need to keep track of which skills characters have fumbled.
DSMatticus wrote:I sort my leisure activities into a neat and manageable categorized hierarchy, then ignore it and dick around on the internet.
My deviantArt account, in case anyone cares.
Harshax
Knight
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:12 pm
Location: Chicago, USA

Post by Harshax »

The points presented previously referenced earlier editions of RQ and BRP games in general.

As for your second point, yes, it seems you can game the system to get free +1's. Haven't had this edition for long enough to perceive this as a lucrative exploit. Fumble grenade throwing to get better at throwing grenades, let's see how well that works for your PC or your allies in the long run. :roll:

EDIT: The rules explicitly suggest that you should not allow a skill attempt if there is no significant consequences to failure.
Last edited by Harshax on Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
fectin
Prince
Posts: 3760
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:54 am

Post by fectin »

GâtFromKI wrote:Anyway, you're young, you're a candidate PhD, and you think you're the king of the world because you're a candidate PhD. I guess you will discover the real world soon, that a PhD doesn't make you exceptional in any way, having a PhD in sociology doesn't qualify make your opinion interesting in any other in other fields than what you've studied, and many person without PhD are more skilled than you.
Since the first reviews of his still-draft thesis are from 2000 and 2001, his letter of recommendation praises him as a social justice warrior, and he's deeply committed to project management without any obvious engineering grounding... I'm going to go ahead and guess that he won't be discovering that. That is deep, deep within the bowels of the ivory tower.
Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.
User avatar
Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage
Posts: 14782
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Kaelik »

fectin wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:Anyway, you're young, you're a candidate PhD, and you think you're the king of the world because you're a candidate PhD. I guess you will discover the real world soon, that a PhD doesn't make you exceptional in any way, having a PhD in sociology doesn't qualify make your opinion interesting in any other in other fields than what you've studied, and many person without PhD are more skilled than you.
Since the first reviews of his still-draft thesis are from 2000 and 2001, his letter of recommendation praises him as a social justice warrior, and he's deeply committed to project management without any obvious engineering grounding... I'm going to go ahead and guess that he won't be discovering that. That is deep, deep within the bowels of the ivory tower.
How do you have all this personal information. Did I miss the part where he started bragging about how great he is?
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Harshax
Knight
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:12 pm
Location: Chicago, USA

Post by Harshax »

Kaelik wrote:How do you have all this personal information. Did I miss the part where he started bragging about how great he is?
I wondered the same and suspected his handle is his real name...

http://www.levlafayette.com/
fectin
Prince
Posts: 3760
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:54 am

Post by fectin »

Kaelik wrote:Did I miss the part where he started bragging about how great he is?
Yes, you did:
Lev Lafayette wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:Are you stupid or something ? Have you some mental disease preventing you to say something that makes sense ? Was anyone, at some point of the past, able to communicate with you in a constructive way ?
Decide for yourself.
http://levlafayette.com/about
User avatar
erik
King
Posts: 5863
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by erik »

GâtFromKI wrote:I guess you will discover the real world soon, that a PhD doesn't make you exceptional in any way, having a PhD in sociology doesn't qualify make your opinion interesting in any other in other fields than what you've studied, and many person without PhD are more skilled than you.
I'd contest even the notion that his opinion will be interesting even towards his primary field of study as his field of study is 'teh internet' with a draft thesis from over a decade ago. Sadly the most relevant search hit for his university program's internet presence seems to be his own self-praising blog (the ones ranked above it are from 90's style pages just with a list of dead links).
GâtFromKI
Knight-Baron
Posts: 513
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:14 am

Post by GâtFromKI »

fectin wrote:Since the first reviews of his still-draft thesis are from 2000 and 2001, his letter of recommendation praises him as a social justice warrior, and he's deeply committed to project management without any obvious engineering grounding... I'm going to go ahead and guess that he won't be discovering that. That is deep, deep within the bowels of the ivory tower.
Outch, I didn't see the date of his "future"-thesis. :rofl:

Nice cracknut.
Post Reply