SKR quotables

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:36 am

fectin wrote:So. If you had a gun to your head and had to build a feat-points system around the core feats, which was extensible to all WOTC feats, what things would you think about to make it least bad?

TOME scaling BAB and skill based feats, with a few especially powerful feats not scaling (particularly those that affect spellcasting)

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:57 am

So, keeping the shitty mix of WotC feats? Fine. Almost every feat costs 1 point, with half a point for most feats that only affect skills, but you have a number of feat points equal to your BAB (as a replacement to the normal amount, including Bonus Feats other than the specific "you get X as a Bonus Feat" ones). There. Wizards still load up on Metamagic feats or whatever*, but so do Sorcerers and Clerics now. Indeed, Clerics and Druids do it faster. All Fighting Men now have one feat per level. And the Fighter class ceases to exist.

Maybe some feats would cost multiple points, and those feats would be the "overpowered or you only ever take it to abuse it" variety (Divine Metamagic, Natural Spell and such). Some of the "does a handful of good-ish things but has eleven prerequisites" feats would instead cost 2 points as well, I suppose.

But I don't particularly like it, and would only go ahead in the gun-to-head situation.

*Which works out to them being behind on feats for most of their career, occasionally on course, and eventually ahead of the Wizard that prestige out at level 6.

erik · Post by **erik** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:11 am

• good BAB progression
• 8 base HP, +5 HP/level
• 2 good saves
• Simple+Martial weapons and Armor+Shields if you care
• 6 skill points/level, all skills as class skills
• Cast as a sorcerer. Choose spells from any full caster list. Feel free to fluff it up with a spell book or holy symbol or joke material components. (spells won't actually require non-costly components or divine focus... but they will have verbal/somatic components/spell failure)
• Every other class feature becomes a feat (pre-req, lowest level it is available)
• 4 feats per level

I can't possibly balance feats, there's too much shittiness, so may as well give enough feats and include useful options drawn from class features such that you can just buy enough crap that you hopefully don't only take garbage.

I can't stop a brain damaged person from taking Endurance instead of Wildshape or Divine Grace, but the people not choking on their tongue should be able to figure something fun out.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:51 am

Koumei wrote:Maybe some feats would cost multiple points, and those feats would be the "overpowered or you only ever take it to abuse it" variety (Divine Metamagic, Natural Spell and such).

Natural spell is just a feat tax for druids. Should just make it free or nearly free.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:52 am

does the game become better or worse with the inclusion of natural spell for druids

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:54 am

Antariuk wrote:My question is, was this terrible idea really discussed anywhere recently, or does SKR simply have more time on his hands now to delve into the archives of D&D discussions on the web

I read something about it here, once (it might have been the 2011 thing you said), but I mentioned it on minmaxboards less than three months ago and linked directly to it. It wouldn't surprise me if he has Google Alerts or something to notify him when people talk about his site.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:08 pm

ishy wrote:
Koumei wrote:Maybe some feats would cost multiple points, and those feats would be the "overpowered or you only ever take it to abuse it" variety (Divine Metamagic, Natural Spell and such).
Natural spell is just a feat tax for druids. Should just make it free or nearly free.

There's a can of worms there - do we want druids to be "casters OR bears" or do we want them to be "casters AND bears"? If the former, then you make it cost several feat points seeing as we're not allowed to ban things in this exercise. So you make it cost as much as "goddamn fucking divine metamagic persistent spell!" If the latter, then yeah, you make it cost half a feat point so they take both it and some other minor thing.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:38 pm

If you're not going to ban it (or making it so expensive, you're effectively banning it), druids are going to take it anyway. All you're doing is preventing druids from taking other feats.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:44 pm

It doesn't even matter anyway, because the Advanced Class Guide released a 2nd level, 10 min/level spell that lets people provide verbal components in animal form.

angelfromanotherpin · Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:48 pm

OgreBattle wrote:does the game become better or worse with the inclusion of natural spell for druids

Worse. It's a significant buff on a class that is already overpowered.

Jeff W · Post by **Jeff W** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:06 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:It doesn't even matter anyway, because the Advanced Class Guide released a 2nd level, 10 min/level spell that lets people provide verbal components in animal form.

Don't forget the Ring of Eloquence.

momothefiddler · Post by **momothefiddler** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:59 pm

I don't really see why it's a problem to allow druids to cast while they're in fighter-form. I mean, if you have to choose between melee and full caster, why ever go melee at all? Besides, clerics can do it.

Reducing Wild Shape to a utility ability is... I guess it's fine but it feels counter to the point of a druid. If I have to specifically nerf myself to turn into a bear and smack things, why am I bothering anyway?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:58 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:does the game become better or worse with the inclusion of natural spell for druids
Worse. It's a significant buff on a class that is already overpowered.

Yeah, this is wrong and obviously wrong for the reasons explained by others.

Being a buff or a nerf to a powerful or weak class does not alone make the game better. If you multiplied Ubercharger damage by 500 that would be bad, and not even bad because fighters would be too powerful, because they wouldn't even be much more powerful. It would be bad because it limits playspace.

Any attempt to nerf wildshape has to actually be thought about to some degree. If Druids are just Clerics with a slightly different spells list and fewer spells per day, then go fuck yourself, you should be nerfing clerics and Wizards, and at that point you are just rewriting all the functional classes in the game, so just go make your heartbreaker.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:41 am

Reminder that the main reason people laugh at SKR's system is because Toughness cost the same as Natural Spell, and now we have Denners literally defending that position.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:55 am

We have Denners defending the position that Natural Spell shouldn't be entirely removed from the game, not the position that it is exactly as valuable as Toughness.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:57 am

SKR's system had much more granularity than Koumei's. On top of that, even if they have the same point cost (which no-one has actually said), wizards get 0.5 feat points/level; fighters get at least one. Erik's take was a radical class-ectomy. I don't know how you could usefully compare that to SKR's take. OgreBattle went for scaling feats. DDM and Seerow each suggested a fairly straightforward system based around assigning sane relative costs to feats.

I can't see where you're getting the 'toughness should cost the sane as natural spell' from.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:22 am

Reading back through the thread it looks like it was basically just Ishy (who was saying Natural Spell should be very cheap), some of the other discussion looked like it was following along with him, but was apparently branched off onto whether or not Natural Spell should even exist.

So uh, my bad mostly.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:25 am

Seerow wrote:Reminder that the main reason people laugh at SKR's system is because Toughness cost the same as Natural Spell, and now we have Denners literally defending that position.

Seerow wrote:Reading back through the thread it looks like it was basically just Ishy (who was saying Natural Spell should be very cheap), some of the other discussion looked like it was following along with him, but was apparently branched off onto whether or not Natural Spell should even exist.

So uh, my bad mostly.

I never mentioned toughness in this thread at all.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:22 pm

ishy wrote:
Seerow wrote:Reminder that the main reason people laugh at SKR's system is because Toughness cost the same as Natural Spell, and now we have Denners literally defending that position.
Seerow wrote:Reading back through the thread it looks like it was basically just Ishy (who was saying Natural Spell should be very cheap), some of the other discussion looked like it was following along with him, but was apparently branched off onto whether or not Natural Spell should even exist.

So uh, my bad mostly.
I never mentioned toughness in this thread at all.

By keeping natural spell as a feat that is "nearly free" toughness or whatever other shitty feat you can think of would have to have similar costs. Unless we want to get into weird territory where "nearly free" is still somehow much more expensive than what you REALLY want shitty feats to cost, which is really stupid.

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:02 pm

Or...

Perhaps 'feat taxes' could just be given to the appropriate class as an ability. Ie, there is no feat 'Natural Spell', there's just Druids that can cast spells while in animal form.

The main issue with something not being available as a feat is when it would be useful to another class who now has no way to obtain it.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:57 pm

So Druids get natural spell as a bonus feat at level X; everyone else (polymorphous wizards) takes it as a regular feat.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:50 pm

infected slut princess wrote:Obviously Sean K Renyolds is going to make the best RPG ever.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/125Pentagon/

Yeah.......but I was rather amazed at his article on Ex/Su removal notion, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. So I'll be following this RPG from here on out, and will possibly help fund the Kickstarter so to get a copy of the rule-set. If so, I'll try to clue you guys in on it, and/or possibly lend a copy or some such to someone to review it in the future (if applicable).

I guess I'm pretty desperate for a new Fantasy RPG with modern sensibilities (not as in setting, but as in design paradigms)....

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:31 pm

Seerow wrote:By keeping natural spell as a feat that is "nearly free" toughness or whatever other shitty feat you can think of would have to have similar costs. Unless we want to get into weird territory where "nearly free" is still somehow much more expensive than what you REALLY want shitty feats to cost, which is really stupid.

Improved toughness exists. That could be priced at the same price as Natural Spell, and Toughness can be deleted from the universe forever.

Nothing about "Natural Spell should be cheap" necessitates anything about toughness.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:11 am

Aryxbez wrote:
infected slut princess wrote:Obviously Sean K Renyolds is going to make the best RPG ever.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/125Pentagon/
Yeah.......but I was rather amazed at his article on Ex/Su removal notion, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. So I'll be following this RPG from here on out, and will possibly help fund the Kickstarter so to get a copy of the rule-set. If so, I'll try to clue you guys in on it, and/or possibly lend a copy or some such to someone to review it in the future (if applicable).

I guess I'm pretty desperate for a new Fantasy RPG with modern sensibilities (not as in setting, but as in design paradigms)....

While most those are interesting design goals, I'm not really confident in SKR's ability to pull it off. Is he working on this single-handedly? Anyways.

Make a game that is easy to read, understand, and reference, like the Pathfinder RPG Beginner Box (a product I am very proud of).

Okay, not really much of a problem there.

Make characters less dependent upon their gear to survive and succeed.

Decent enough, though that characters will have to get the numbers from somewhere else, like simply leveling up.

Create a longer play experience in the leveling "sweet spot" (the D&D/PFRPG equivalent of level 6 to level 12).

Allow characters to level more frequently so they don't remain exactly the same for many game sessions.

My main worry right here. This has the problem of ending up like 4E's level treadmill, where you might make things less crazytown, but then there's not a real feeling of growth. Especially if levels are supposed pass by really fast.

Elevate martial characters to have parity with spellcasters, but still maintain fun and distinct flavor for each class.
Reward roleplaying, adventuring, and social interaction instead of focusing on damage output in combat.

Don't see this really happening as long as spellcasters have the bredth of options they did before 4E. Martial characters entire concept is about fighting things, so even if you're balanced in combat, you can be completely helpless outside of combat while the casters deal with things.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:46 am

Actually, on second thought, if I had that gun to my head and wasn't feeling lucky, I might make a list of "feats that really pissed people off on the WotC boards". And then make those the cheapest. So Natural Spell, XWP: Spiked Chain, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Knockdown, Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike would all cost a quarter of a feat point each.

Never mind that letting a fighting man take a "chain" of feats with one feat is actually appropriate, the goal there would be trollface.psd