Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Maxus]

Covent, you are truly one of us now.

Welcome to the Collective.

[Antariuk]

Alright, so apparently someone at Paizo caught up to the Improved Eldritch Heritage/Unsanctioned Knowledge/Samsaran's Past Life shenanigans and made a FAQ ruling. This someone being Jason B., the FAQ went as well as you might expect - stating that if something gives you spells known that aren't on your class spell list, you can't cast those spells (unless a class feature explicitly says so, like a sorcerer's bloodline spells).

Sheer knee-jerk stupidity aside, within the first page of that thread people have shown archetypes and PrCs that have a real problem now, and Jasons answer is to make another FAQ for that. I kinda lost my shit at that point that and now I'm drunk. Thanks PF.

[Voss]

Does anyone have links regarding the Pathfinder 2nd Edition?

Google has way too much speculative chaff or crossover results from D&D 2E to be helpful, even after ten pages of looking through this crap.

I have this.

They announced Pathfinder Unchained, alternate ideas without backward compatibility.

So... they do a book of class mashups, then plan a book whose sole point is to toss all the backwards compatibility issues. And here's Jason's word on it.

1. This book is not a second edition of Pathfinder. Nor is it intended to be a "rules light" or "essentials" version of Pathfinder.

Yes... totally believable. You're just rewriting the core systems and classes for funzies. People are being absolutely ridiculous when they see you've produced new core classes that can replace the shitty and featureless holdovers from 3.5, and now you're going to do even more to move away from that system, but it is in no way an indicator of PF2. Eeyup. I don't get any flashbacks at all to Tome of Magic, Book of 9 Swords or Unearthed Arcana.

2. This book is designed to let the design team play with the rules in a way that we have not been able to before, revisiting some old designs and tinkering with parts of the game that are otherwise considered "sacred" parts of the system.

Ah. More honest, 'we're fucking around too see how you lab animals respond, and what we can get away with'

3. There will not be a play test for this book. We have been getting years of play test feedback on many of the rules we will be examining in this book. Think of it more as an additional design step as opposed to a "start from scratch" design process.

Yes, clearly you wouldn't want to playtest anything at any point but the start of the process. What? Not sure how they've been getting playtest feedback on all these 'green' rules though...

4. There will not be new iconics for the classes. We will get some new art for them, but we will not be inventing new iconics.

I'm sure someone, somewhere cares. Whatever.

5. There is a veritable mountain of other exciting things in this book that are just too "green" for me to talk about at this time. Expect to hear a lot more in the coming months.

Yes, the green, but somehow intensively playtested stuff.

[Juton]

2. This book is designed to let the design team play with the rules in a way that we have not been able to before, revisiting some old designs and tinkering with parts of the game that are otherwise considered "sacred" parts of the system.

Ah. More honest, 'we're fucking around too see how you lab animals respond, and what we can get away with'

3. There will not be a play test for this book. We have been getting years of play test feedback on many of the rules we will be examining in this book. Think of it more as an additional design step as opposed to a "start from scratch" design process.

Yes, clearly you wouldn't want to playtest anything at any point but the start of the process. What? Not sure how they've been getting playtest feedback on all these 'green' rules though...

Maybe Paizo is finally getting around to monetizing their playtests. As in if they get enough people to buy a book they will get around to fixing it. Or maybe they don't want to have a playtest for a change they think is to drastic.

One could assume they are getting bold enough to outright replace core 3.5 systems. It will be interesting to see which ways Paizo's design team fails when they given so much liberty.

[Longes]

Alright, so apparently someone at Paizo caught up to the Improved Eldritch Heritage/Unsanctioned Knowledge/Samsaran's Past Life shenanigans and made a FAQ ruling. This someone being Jason B., the FAQ went as well as you might expect - stating that if something gives you spells known that aren't on your class spell list, you can't cast those spells (unless a class feature explicitly says so, like a sorcerer's bloodline spells).

Sheer knee-jerk stupidity aside, within the first page of that thread people have shown archetypes and PrCs that have a real problem now, and Jasons answer is to make another FAQ for that. I kinda lost my shit at that point that and now I'm drunk. Thanks PF.

The current wording covers Magician. But if you guys on the forum want to help us out even more, if you find anything that is not a class feature, and it is affected by this FAQ but seems like it now does nothing, consolidate all of those here in this thread. I'm not aware of any such ability right now. I promise I will look at anything you can find and bring them up to everyone to consider.

"You know what would be neat? If you guys on the forum went and wrote Pathfinder 2ed, and then gave it back to us for free, so we can sell it to you. Yeah, that would be neat. Thaaaaanks."

[Ice9]

I really don't understand PF's errata style. They seem to want to fix everything by FAQ "clarifications" that things actually work a totally different way. Which - surprise, surprise, often has ripple effects. Why not just say "ok, X feat turned out to be broken, we're changing it to Y".

It's an attitude I've seen from people on forums sometimes. "Hey, a player in my game is using X combination that completely shatters the game. Is there some technicality of phrasing I could use to claim it doesn't work?" Because I guess some people are very conflict averse. But a supposedly professional company?

Actually, as I type this, I'm realizing - it's basically the same situation. PF is conflict averse with their fans, some of had beef with 4E's high frequency errata. If they "fix" things in the FAQ, they can claim that they're not really adding any errata at all - every single person just happened to be reading it wrong!

[Longes]

Here's a question I have: does anyone actually use all this errata? Because I just looked at the FAQ, and holy fuck! It's huge! Like, Exalted 2.5 huge! When I played pathfinder, I just used the books as printed, because lurking thought that unstructured FAQ searching for fixes is not fun.

EDIT:

Frankly this is all a beautiful illustration why FAQs aren't answered casually and quickly.

There's a lot of thought and research that goes into doing this right and completely.

[ishy]

You should check out the sheer size of their phb faq.

But yeah that FAQ means that gold dragons can no longer cast the cleric spells they know. Since they don't add cleric spells to their sorcerer spell list.

[Koumei]

Alright, so apparently someone at Paizo caught up to the Improved Eldritch Heritage/Unsanctioned Knowledge/Samsaran's Past Life shenanigans and made a FAQ ruling.

Could you explain these shenanigans? As far as I can see, they don't combo together - a Samsaran can grab a bunch of non-class spells of the same type, a Paladin can grab a few non-class spells of another type, a Samsaran Paladin can do both, enjoy having a few good spells as a Paladin? And I'm not sure where Eldritch Heritage fits in, either.

[Longes]

Alright, so apparently someone at Paizo caught up to the Improved Eldritch Heritage/Unsanctioned Knowledge/Samsaran's Past Life shenanigans and made a FAQ ruling.

Could you explain these shenanigans? As far as I can see, they don't combo together - a Samsaran can grab a bunch of non-class spells of the same type, a Paladin can grab a few non-class spells of another type, a Samsaran Paladin can do both, enjoy having a few good spells as a Paladin? And I'm not sure where Eldritch Heritage fits in, either.

If memory serves me, some combination of Paragon Surge and Eldritch Heritage allowed a half-elf oracle to spontaneously cast from every non-druid spell ever.

[ishy]

Paragon Surge gives you a feat for the spell duration.
With eldritch heritage you can pick up sorcerer bloodlines powers.
One sorcerer bloodlines power is

New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.

[hogarth]

Here's a question I have: does anyone actually use all this errata? Because I just looked at the FAQ, and holy fuck! It's huge!

I use the rulings that seem obviously correct to me (in which case I didn't need to look in the FAQ in the first place) and I don't use the rulings that seem obviously incorrect to me.

What I don't understand about this stupid Paragon Surge debate is why anyone thinks it's any more broken than the shenanigans that high level spellcasters can already do.

[Antariuk]

Could you explain these shenanigans?

What ishy said.

I just included Samsarans and that paladin feat because they all fall under the category of "grab some spells you normally can't" - which Samsarans can still do after that FAQ. What irritates me is that Paragon Surge and Improved Eldritch Heritage both already received FAQ treatment, limiting PS to one choice per day and IEH to one choice period - so either Paizo still is super-worried about people getting spells from somewhere else (gasp) or they got lost in their own FAQ labyrinth or (and this makes a lot of sense to me) they are preparing for when the arcanist hits the shelves and shoots the remaining notions of "game balance" in the face.

[Covent]

Arcanist...

*Air Raid Siren*

"That is all."

[Longes]

Could you explain these shenanigans?

What ishy said.

I just included Samsarans and that paladin feat because they all fall under the category of "grab some spells you normally can't" - which Samsarans can still do after that FAQ. What irritates me is that Paragon Surge and Improved Eldritch Heritage both already received FAQ treatment, limiting PS to one choice per day and IEH to one choice period - so either Paizo still is super-worried about people getting spells from somewhere else (gasp) or they got lost in their own FAQ labyrinth or (and this makes a lot of sense to me) they are preparing for when the arcanist hits the shelves and shoots the remaining notions of "game balance" in the face.

People on the paizo forums speculate that the recent flurry of faqs is intended to nerf existing classes, and make new classes look better.

EDIT: Actually, Samsarans are unaffected by this faq.

[Longes]

Interesting thing I learned from the FAQ: Fighter doesn't actually have Armor Proficiency feats. He has class abilities that emulate those feats. Which means that fighter can't learn feats that require those feats as prerequisites (like Mythic Armor Proficiency).

[Guyr Adamantine]

Interesting thing I learned from the FAQ: Fighter doesn't actually have Armor Proficiency feats. He has class abilities that emulate those feats. Which means that fighter can't learn feats that require those feats as prerequisites (like Mythic Armor Proficiency).

Obviously they didn't suck quite hard enough.

[Rawbeard]

what the actual shitfuck?

[RelentlessImp]

what the actual shitfuck?

Fighter: Can I learn a new fighter bonus feat in place of one of my armor proficiency feats?

No. Despite wording in the Armor Proficiency feats, fighters (and other classes) have a class ability that grants proficiency in those armors--it doesn't actually grant those specific feats. Therefore, the fighter's ability to learn a new feat in place of another feat does not apply to these proficiencies.

[Rawbeard]

"no, those feats are set and cannot be retrained by any means" Done, you shitbreathing inbreds.

I don't even... I could choke a puppy right now.

[RelentlessImp]

And people wonder why I hate Paizo, aside from the beta and Sean K. Reynold's textual diarrhea on the subject of Vow of Poverty. The FAQs are full of shit like that.

EDIT: Here's another from near the top.

Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?

Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.

The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.

For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.

Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.

A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.

So... you should get a Headband of Intellect +6 early as possible and wear it while you level up, is what I'm taking away from this.

[erik]

"no, those feats are set and cannot be retrained by any means" Done, you shitbreathing inbreds.

I don't even... I could choke a puppy right now.

Just pretend you work for Paizo and I'll make it real easy for ya.

[sarcasmoverdose]

Interesting thing I learned from the FAQ: Fighter doesn't actually have Armor Proficiency feats. He has class abilities that emulate those feats. Which means that fighter can't learn feats that require those feats as prerequisites (like Mythic Armor Proficiency).

And just look at "melee edition"'s mythic tier 1 abilities.

Arcane Caster:

Wild Arcana (Su)
As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without expending a prepared spell or spell slot. The spell must be on one of your arcane class spell lists and must be of a level that you can cast with that arcane spellcasting class.

You don't need to have the spell prepared, nor does it need to be on your list of spells known. When casting a spell in this way, you treat your caster level as 2 levels higher for the purpose of any effect dependent on level. You can apply any metamagic feats you know to this spell, but its total adjusted level can't be greater than that of the highest-level arcane spell you can cast from that spellcasting class.

Crafting Mastery (Ex)

You can craft any magic item as if you had the necessary item creation feats. If you actually have the item creation feat needed for a magic item you're crafting, whenever you attempt a skill check to create that item, roll twice and use the higher result, and you make twice as much progress on the item for any time spent. This ability does not reduce the item's cost or any other requirements.

Perfect Preparation (Ex)

You have discovered the secret to preparing spells without having to refer to outside sources. You no longer need to prepare spells from a spellbook (if you're a magus or wizard) or a familiar (if you're a witch). You still must spend the normal amount of time preparing spells. You may keep or discard your spellbook or familiar.

Enhance Magic Items (Ex)

Your mythic presence enhances the power of certain magic items. Add half your tier to the caster level of potions, scrolls, staves, and wands you use. When using a staff or wand, you may activate the item by expending one use of mythic power instead of one of the item's charges.

Melee Fighter:

Distant Barrage (Ex)

As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to make a ranged attack at your highest attack bonus. This is in addition to any other attacks you make this round. When making this attack, ignore the target's cover and concealment other than total cover, and add your tier to the attack roll. Damage from this attack bypasses all damage reduction.

Crusader (Ex)

Your prowess and ability draw countless followers to your banner. You gain followers as if you had the Leadership feat. In addition, you add your tier to your leadership score when determining the number of followers you gain. Whenever you are within 100 feet of such followers, each follower can use the surge ability once per day without needing to expend mythic power.

The followers use the same die type as your surge ability.

If you have or gain the Leadership feat, you gain followers from both this ability and the Leadership feat (in effect doubling the number of followers gained).

Aerial Assault (Su)

You can charge at creatures in the air, or leap across obstacles as part of a charge. When making a charge attack, you can expend one use of mythic power to include a single Acrobatics check made to jump, adding 10 feet per tier to the height or distance you jump. You take no falling damage from the height gained as part of this leap. If your attack hits, you may deal an amount of additional damage equal to the falling damage appropriate for the height you reached. Alternatively, you may replace your melee attack from this charge with a grapple check. If you successfully grapple a creature, you bring it to the ground with you at the end of your jump, and it takes an appropriate amount of falling damage for the height it was at when you grappled it.

Limitless Range (Ex)

Multiply the range increment on all of your ranged and thrown weapons by 5 feet, and these weapons no longer have a maximum range increment for you. You can throw any melee weapon as if it had a range increment of 20 feet—this increment isn't multiplied by 5, but the weapon doesn't have a maximum range increment.

They're more balanced if you take the trap options:
Arc:

Sensory Link (Su)

As a standard action, you can see and hear through your familiar's eyes and ears. While using this ability, you can't see or hear using your normal senses. You can speak through your familiar using any language you know, even if the familiar can't normally speak. You may end the link and restore your own senses as a standard action. While linked, you can expend one use of mythic power to cast a spell and have it originate from your familiar instead of you. You must have a familiar to select this ability.

Spellbane Counterstrike (Su)

With a quick sprint, you retaliate against the caster of a spell you countered. When you successfully counter a spell, you can move up to your speed as part of the counterspell action, as long as you end your movement with the target of the counterspell within melee reach. Your movement from this ability doesn't count toward your total movement for the round.

If the target's casting would have provoked an attack of opportunity, you can immediately take an attack of opportunity against the target.

Enduring Armor (Su)

You are protected by armor made of force. This armor grants you an armor bonus to AC equal to 3 + your tier. This ability is an abjuration effect with a spell level equal to your tier. If this armor is dispelled or otherwise ended, you can reactivate it as a swift action.

Melee:

Always a Chance (Ex)

You don't automatically miss when you roll a 1 on an attack roll.

Always Armed (Ex)

You don't take any penalties from using an improvised weapon. In addition, whenever you confirm a critical hit with an improvised weapon, you can treat its critical multiplier as ×3 instead of ×2, but the weapon is destroyed.

Armor Master (Ex)

You don't take an armor check penalty or incur a arcane spell failure chance when wearing light armor or using a shield (including a tower shield). In addition, the maximum Dexterity bonus of light armor doesn't apply to you. You can select this ability up to three times. The second time, it also applies to medium armor. The third time, it also applies to heavy armor.

[RelentlessImp]

You know, I want to tear into the Mythic abilities. I really do. The spellcaster ones are obviously superior to the melee ones. But...

Always a Chance (Ex)

You don't automatically miss when you roll a 1 on an attack roll.

This is the ability of a God. I mean, a really SHITTY divine ability, but it's the purview of Divine Rank 1 or higher beings. So... maybe they're slowly getting it into their fucking heads that after a certain level D&D characters deserve to be demigods, if not gods outright.

[sarcasmoverdose]

You know, I want to tear into the Mythic abilities. I really do. The spellcaster ones are obviously superior to the melee ones. But...

Always a Chance (Ex)

You don't automatically miss when you roll a 1 on an attack roll.

This is the ability of a God. I mean, a really SHITTY divine ability, but it's the purview of Divine Rank 1 or higher beings. So... maybe they're slowly getting it into their fucking heads that after a certain level D&D characters deserve to be demigods, if not gods outright.

Not quite hardly. T6 Champion can get an inferior version of whirlwind attack that craps out in an AMF:

Sweeping Strike (Su)

Even when you're swarmed, your foes are not safe from danger. Whenever you could make a full attack, you may instead make a single attack at your highest attack bonus and apply the results to all opponents within your reach. Roll damage once and apply it to all opponents hit by the attack. This attack can't deal precision damage. If the attack roll is a critical threat, choose one target you hit and attempt to confirm the critical against that target.

At one tier after they get the superior version:

Mythic Whirlwind Attack (Mythic)

You can strike multiple times at every foe within reach.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Mythic Combat Expertise, Mythic Dodge, Mythic Mobility, Mythic Spring Attack, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, base attack bonus +4, 5th mythic tier.

Benefit(s): When you use Whirlwind Attack as a full-round action, you may make all your attacks from a full attack action against one foe, and one additional attack against every foe within reach. If you expend two uses of mythic power, you may make all your attacks from a full attack action against every foe within reach.

And take 6 tiers to get teleport:

Seven-League Leap (Ex)

Source Pathfinder Player Companion: Mythic Origins

Your leap is so mighty that you defy gravity. Add your tier to Acrobatics checks made to jump. The distance you can jump in a round is not limited by your movement speed. If you are carrying no more than a light load, you can expend one use of mythic power to make a powerful jump that lets you sail through the air. In order to use this ability, you must be able to run in a straight line for 1 minute. Any obstacles or impediments that prevent you from completing this sprint uninterrupted prevent you from being able to use this ability, though the expenditure of mythic power is not wasted. At the end of your 1-minute sprint, you attempt an Acrobatics check and leap a distance up to half the check's result in miles, rounded down to the nearest mile (for example, an Acrobatics check result of 29 would allow you to jump 14 miles). This trip takes 1 round per mile, and you reach a maximum height at the apex of your arc equal to half the distance traveled. You do not take falling damage from using this ability. You must have a clear arc of travel to complete this jump; if you strike an obstacle mid-jump, you and the obstacle each take a number of points of damage equal to 1d8 × the number of miles you have left to travel. If this damage destroys the obstacle, you continue your jump; otherwise, your jump comes to an end and you fall, taking falling damage as appropriate. You cannot aim this leap accurately, and always land 50 to 5,000 feet (5d%) from your intended destination.