Zero Buzz on 5E...Is It Dead Out The Gate?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:28 pm

Bonus stupidity points for giving such a low density write-up to a fucking aberration--a creature type tells you nothing because its whole purpose is to act as a dumping ground for random ass monsters.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:49 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Well, hobgoblins and ogres are common low level monsters meant as encounter fodder, so except for the whole lack of skills thing it's pathetically acceptable. I'd be more concerned about the preview of the Nothics.

1/2 level for a hobgoblin though? what the fuck do they consider to be higher level? are they really putting planescape into the core and trying to have you fight the entire OotS Eastern Continent gods at 17th level?

what the fuck level is the smaller goblin they pictured then supposed to be? CR:1/8?

so challenge means for a party of 4 of that level. 2 hobgolbins for a party of level 1 PCs

4*1/4=1
1/2 * 2 = 1

1=1....

are they turning things like kobolds and goblins into swarms like bees and rats?

low level is one thing, but this is ridiculous. if they are supposedly making the lovels breeze by in a single night then how many mosnters have they put into them if an ogre is a low level monster before you get a flatter XP range.

i think it is level 4 that is the first level that isnt supposed to be done in a single battle/game session or something like that?

the ogre is a CR:2 meaning 1 ogre for 4 level 2 PCs, so it is a level 2 "solo" monster to keep the quick XP pace to get on to the higher levels.

how many fucking monsters really are there for the power curve on monsters than are about ogre range? what will be left for higher levels? do 2 ogres really work for a 4 PC party of level 4?

will it take a dozen goblins for a level 1 party?

something hs always seemed off with this CR/ECL type shit since 2000, and this just seems to prove it.

lets try mixing.
cr 2 + 2 (cr 1/2) = 3
so would 2 hobgolins and an ogre be good for a level 3 party of 4?

i will let those that like this sort of combat math and shit figure it out and tell me. it jsut seems and feels off the way they are doing these random out of their ass numbers.

if that is a bit weird, then how about these for level 4 parties...

2 ogres
or
8 hobgoblins
or
1 ogre + 4 hobgoblins

or if you want to get crazy...

1 ochre jelly (cr 2) + 4 hobgoblins

tell me if these are reasonable matches against a 4-man party with what is known

i doubt the ochre, ogre, or nothic are even matched at being for a level 2 party either even if their XP is the same.

based on XP alone, and if 4 hobgoblins = 1 ogre, then the hobgoblins give 800 XP while the ogre only gives 450. something is very off if they are supposed to both be equal to a level 2 party.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:01 am

Hobgoblin

The extra damage applies if their buddy is within 5 squares of you. Do they send in suicide bombers with outrageous ACs (full plate, tower shields in full defense) while the rest of them act as archers 150ft away.

Thats a weird tactic for a race to use, but i guess its fantasy... right?

Or should that say melee attacks only.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:11 am

The other question is what the NEXT definition of an ally is. If a hobgoblin counts as its own ally then it gets the bonus damage all the time in melee.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:56 am

Krusk wrote:Hobgoblin

The extra damage applies if their buddy is within 5 squares of you.

5 feet, not squares. it must be adjacent. a square is still 5 feet right, or did they change that?

it is basically flanking that gives the extra damage, but you can be flanked by whatever is considered "ally" to the hobgoblin on any side.

Krusk · Post by **Krusk** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:00 am

My bad, he runs in really close not 5 squares just 5ft.

Sakuya Izayoi · Post by **Sakuya Izayoi** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:08 am

Eyebeam Nothic sounds way cooler than some mutated wizard who can no longer wizard, and isn't going to live long enough for its mind reading to matter.

But sadly, the 'nards wouldn't be able to roleplay an eyebeam monster to death with their fighters.

Previn · Post by **Previn** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:51 am

Little known fact: All 5e Hobgoblins are expert falconers. Their trusty birds of prey stay within 5' of a target as direct by the Hobgoblin.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 5:08 am

Sakuya Izayoi wrote:Eyebeam Nothic sounds way cooler than some mutated wizard who can no longer wizard, and isn't going to live long enough for its mind reading to matter.

But sadly, the 'nards wouldn't be able to roleplay an eyebeam monster to death with their fighters.

Eyebeam Nothic also has a thing where apparently Vecna can see through the eye of one Nothic at a time. And while I have no idea how that's supposed to connect to their Far Realm origins, it's still cooler than 90% of the monsters in 4th edition, and cooler than 100% of the monsters so far released for D&DN.

-Username17

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:25 am

It looks like they had a pretty reasonable "level 1" Hobgoblin in the last playtest with AC 14 and giving advantage to allies who follow up your hits on the same target, at 1d8 damage.

So +4 AC and +8 damage for everyone is the change. The Ogre went from 32 to 59 hit points, from "level 4" to CR 2.

It looks like they decided rather than groups of four monsters for an equal challenge they'd use two monsters which are somewhat harder to knock over but do no more damage each, and thus are hugely nerfed. Basically a big change in "feel" after the last feedback to make it more like 4e. Playtest totally just a joke though.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 9:13 pm

They do have character sheets up for their organised play:

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx ... advleague4

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:12 pm

ishy wrote:They do have character sheets up for their organised play:

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx ... advleague4

Possible values are Alliance or Horde.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:17 pm

nockermensch wrote:

Bonds: Connery, Moore, Dalton, Craig, Covalent, Electrical, Magnetic....

Flaws: 5th Edition

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:31 pm

I bet faction is an attempt to recapture L5R.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:36 pm

Or someone wants to get their Planescape on, but they wouldn't be that stupid, would they?

ScottS · Post by **ScottS** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:03 am

There's some kind of faction thing in Pathfinder Society, so I would guess it's borrowed/reclaimed/whatever from that.

Guide to PFS Organized Play v4.3 wrote: Season 4 Faction Goals
Each faction has specific goals it hopes to achieve during Season 4. Below is a brief overview of their motivations.
Andoran: Establish an embassy in Magnimar, and increase the city’s influence in Varisia at the expense of Korvosa’s.
Cheliax: Help Zarta Dralneen improve her reputation to combat an enemy in Egorian, and support Korvosa in its struggle for dominance in Varisia.
Grand Lodge: Ensure the success of the Heidmarchs’ lodge in Magnimar, and continue the war against the Aspis Consortium and any rogue Shadow Lodge agents.
Lantern Lodge: Fight the Aspis Consortium, ensure the route through the Hao Jin Tapestry is safe for Pathfinders, and restore honor to the faction.
Osirion: Find a cure for the Ruby Prince by researching Thassilonian magic and Lissalan curses.
Qadira: Claim new Varisian markets, exploit the shortcut to Varisia through the Hao Jin Tapestry, and establish trade with Janderhoff.
Sczarni: Unify disparate Sczarni families across Varisia under Guaril Karela’s leadership, and boost Riddleport’s influence in the region.
Shadow Lodge: Infiltrate the Aspis Consortium, and expand Grandmaster Torch’s spy network into Varisia.
Silver Crusade: Learn about Thassilon and prepare the unsuspecting populace for a coming war with evil.
Taldor: Establish a new aristocracy in Varisia with loyalties to Taldor.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 12:55 am

Krusk wrote:Hobgoblin

The extra damage applies if their buddy is within 5 squares of you. Do they send in suicide bombers with outrageous ACs (full plate, tower shields in full defense) while the rest of them act as archers 150ft away.

Thats a weird tactic for a race to use, but i guess its fantasy... right?

Or should that say melee attacks only.

Keep in mind, this is exactly how sneak attack works for rogues in the final playtest version. Except they only get 1d6 until level 5. So either that changed, or every half-level hobgoblin is also a level 5 rogue. In chain and shield.

On the ogre and ochre jelly page (the nothic wasn't in the playtest...for obvious reasons) vs the final playtest versions

. The changes are weird and random. They were formerly both level 4 (though the ogre was 'worth' 140 xp and the jelly 180xp).

The jelly got a a debuff to con and all the mental stats (because). The ogre got a 1 point bonus to strength andd 3 to Con (which explains some of the hp differences. Significantly, however, the jelly lost a hit die (and with the con loss, dropped from 59 hp to 45. The ogre gained 2 hit dice, and with the con buff, went from 32 to 59 hp.

The attack damage is the same, but notably the jelly lost +1 to hit and the ogre gained +1, probably from hit dice. Notably the fighter preview increased the base to hit bonus of PC classes, but that doesn't seem to carry over to the monsters.

So basically, whatever 'balance adjustments' they made from playtest version to final version are +/- 50% to things and essentially call them the same.

The big thing that confuses me is how absurd the variation is within 'equivalent level' monsters (both in the playtest and final version). 50% variation in HP, almost doubling the AC (between jelly and nothic), and almost 50% variation in damage. These inherently can't be balanced as 'similar' challenges.

Also.... challenge 2 is 450xp. This is the level chart for 1-5 (from the fighter character sheet
1......0
2......300
3......900
4.....2700
5.....6500

So... 2 jellies per character will jump the party from level 1 to 3. Alternately, bagging three hobgobs each will take you to level 2, but that is a far more difficult contest.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:19 am

Ancient History wrote:Or someone wants to get their Planescape on, but they wouldn't be that stupid, would they?

I'd be happy to have some new planescape in 5e, it might actually make me give a fuck about it. Of course, I tend to cherry pick things I like, so the bad stuff doesn't see it's way into my games.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:40 am

Wiseman wrote:I'd be happy to have some new planescape in 5e, it might actually make me give a fuck about it.

The new Planescape campaign setting opens with a few paragraphs of the Lady of Pain bitchslapping Hastur, the Anti-Spiral King, Haruhi Suzumiya, and Titan Tails and makes them grovel at her feet.

Planescape thereafter sells millions of volumes but only because the same ten thousand or so fans buy multiple copies of the same book. Mostly because the combination of jizz and drool makes opening the book impossible after a few reads.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:12 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Wiseman wrote:I'd be happy to have some new planescape in 5e, it might actually make me give a fuck about it.
The new Planescape campaign setting opens with a few paragraphs of the Lady of Pain bitchslapping Hastur, the Anti-Spiral King, Haruhi Suzumiya, and Titan Tails and makes them grovel at her feet.

Planescape thereafter sells millions of volumes but only because the same ten thousand or so fans buy multiple copies of the same book. Mostly because the combination of jizz and drool makes opening the book impossible after a few reads.

Like i said, I don't fit in much with the typical crowd of fans. You can't write in any plots about the Lady without dramatically revealing that she's not what everyone thinks she is.

I like the environments and flavor text more than the characters, so the Lady of pain gets put in the background, if she's even mentioned at all other than in passing.

Night Goat · Post by **Night Goat** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:02 am

I don't really understand the Planescape hate. I was lurking when people were complaining about the Lady of Pain, but no one's forcing you to include her in your campaign - there's a lot more to the setting than her. And the Planescape cosmology is far more interesting than the banalshitboring planes of 4e.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:23 am

The idea is that basing a cosmology off the alignments, one of the most infamously flawed portions of DnD is the problem. I agree, and thus downplay a lot of alignments in my games.

EDIT: Also I can't really give a rat's ass about Bytopia and only skimmed the section on Ysgard. The elemental planes are interesting though, although I'll admit I'm hard pressed to come up with reasonable adventures in them that don't involve wizards (or archivists

) building an obscure lair there.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:56 am

I don't actually hate Planescape. I just like hating on the LoP. Sort of like how I'm a huge fan of Super Mario, Star Trek, and Final Fantasy yet I loathe Bowser Jr., Wesley Crusher, and Krile.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:06 am

Night Goat wrote:I don't really understand the Planescape hate. I was lurking when people were complaining about the Lady of Pain, but no one's forcing you to include her in your campaign - there's a lot more to the setting than her. And the Planescape cosmology is far more interesting than the banalshitboring planes of 4e.

Planescape is a shitty setting with a great pitch. The fundamental idea of urban adventure at the center of the multiverse interspersed with infinite plane hopping is sweet, but the actual implementation shat out into the books is pretty dreadful. As such, a lot of the people play the pitch and fill in their own blanks for the parts that the books fuck up - and that works, because the pitch actually is good. And then you have some people who like Planescape because "the lady of pain is awesome XD ROCKS FALL EVERYBODY DIES LOL I AM THE BEST DM."

But I don't think anyone hates the concept. Because it's awesome.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:17 am

Planescae is stupid because it is jsut the beginning of MMO nonsense. Star Ocean and Xenosaga about going around ONE universe to save it form another makes sense, but if you can just move between them, then why give a shit what happens to the one you came from?

Also it is lazy genre shilling. trying to fit every possible genre in because you can go to an alternate universe almost that is modern, dark ages, prehistoric, whatthefuckever... is pretty fucking flaky design.

If you can't make a game that works on one world, then don't try to cover it failings with throwing in more shit to blind people of the problems. is you can't design a setting, then jsut use everything. that is all Planescape is a giant chamberpot full of shit that wouldnt work anywhere else.